I may cut Hanweir for this or Najeela, just to get the ugly meld text out of my cube. This one gets Recruited more easily than Hanweirf and has some random synergies with stuff like Verderous Gearhulk.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Do his tokens enter tapped and attacking? I don't think it does, and I think that makes it the slowest damage clock of the 5, through end of combat on T6, no?
But the body does get progressively bigger (thus safer to attack with), and on turns 5+ it starts outpacing all but Najeela in terms of token production. But perhaps most importantly, you can crank up the token production by boosting power. Attaching a Rancor, Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear to him will be devastating. He's probably good enough to test.
Grafted wargear loves this set. I think I need to look at my power buffing for a couple cards in this set. This is good if alone but insane if equipped or buffed.
I'm not sure if it's better than any of the other 4 just yet. Need to run some numbers. But I do like Garrison more, because it attacks harder in its first couple attacks and it's bigger when it first resolves (making it shock-proof and able to block 2/X creatures the turn it comes down).
New Krenko
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/3, create 2 1/1 Goblins (2 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 3/4, attack with 2 1/1 Goblins, create 3 1/1 Goblins (7 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 4/5, attack with 5 1/1 Goblins, create 4 1/1 Goblins (16 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 5/6, attack with 9 1/1 Goblins, create 5 1/1 Goblins (30 damage)
Krenko goes 2/7/16/30
Hanweir Garrison
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/3, create 2 attacking 1/1 Humans (4 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 2 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (10 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 4 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (18 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 6 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (28 damage)
Garrison goes 4/10/18/28
Najeela, the Blade-Blossom
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 3/2, create 1 attacking 1/1 Warrior (4 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 1 1/1 Warrior, create 2 attacking 1/1 Warriors (10 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 3 1/1 Warriors, create 4 attacking 1/1 Warriors (20 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 7 1/1 Warriors, create 8 attacking 1/1 Warriors (38 damage)
Najeela goes 4/10/20/38
Legion Warboss
Turn 3: Play, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (1 damage)
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/2, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (6 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 1 2/2 Goblin, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (13 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 2 2/2 Goblins, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (22 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 3 2/2 Goblins, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (33 damage)
Warboss goes 6/13/22/33
Goblin Rabblemaster
Turn 3: Play, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (1 damage)
Turn 4: Attack as a 4/2, attack with 2 1/1 Goblins (7 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 5/2, attack with 3 1/1 Goblins (15 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 6/2, attack with 4 1/1 Goblins (25 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 7/2, attack with 5 1/1 Goblins (37 damage)
Rabblemaster goes 7/15/25/37
Please correct me if my maths is wrong!
How would everyone rank the red 3-drop token producers?
In my cube I only run Rabblemaster and Hanweir, despite the fact that Warboss and Najeela are totally good enough on their own merits. I just like diversity.
That said, this guy is very interesting to me. Assuming the tokens don't enter attacking, which makes a lot of sense to me given how quickly new Krenko scales up, I still think he's pretty sweet. The fact that you can slap a sword on him and start pumping out 4+ tokens immediately is super enticing and I think it will make deckbuilding with this guy very interesting. I'm more interested in Krenko 2.0 than I am Warboss and Najeela. He seems like a unique spin on (what is now) a staple effect in red.
My token making 3 drops are currently garrison, najeela, and rabblemaster, all of whom make tokens that can attack immediately or are attacking. While this guy can eventually make more tokens, I think it takes him long enough to catch up unsupported that I like those 3 all more. Yeah, he's better with equipment, but if you're attacking with a wargeared garrison, rabblemaster, or najeela you're probably already doing pretty well lol.
I thought this was gonna be a windmill slam until I saw the tokens aren't attacking.
Comparing this to Najeela to Sin Prodder and trying to decide what to do. Not having the tokens attack is lame plus the 1/2 body sucks. Equipment etc etc is sweet but without it, I'm not sure. I think Najeela has a better average case scenario but the ceiling on Krenko is obviously insane.
Comparing this to Najeela to Sin Prodder and trying to decide what to do. Not having the tokens attack is lame plus the 1/2 body sucks. Equipment etc etc is sweet but without it, I'm not sure. I think Najeela has a better average case scenario but the ceiling on Krenko is obviously insane.
As someone who ran sin prodder, I think this guy is clearly better. If you're deciding between all 3 of the, I think Najeela is probably better.
Going to play this over Warboss. I think being harder to kill by blocking outweighs the disadvantages. I also run Purphoros, so cards that make multiple tokens like Najeela and Hanweir have some upside over the other red 3s.
Going to play this over Warboss. I think being harder to kill by blocking outweighs the disadvantages. I also run Purphoros, so cards that make multiple tokens like Najeela and Hanweir have some upside over the other red 3s.
Warboss makes tokens without ever entering combat. If you're choosing one to run alongside Purphoros, wouldn't the Warboss be safer?
Edit* I think i'll try this over Najeela. When you have to attack to create tokens I value the extra toughness over power and if you do get a second attack with Krenko you're just creating so much more board presence.
Warboss makes tokens without ever entering combat. If you're choosing one to run alongside Purphoros, wouldn't the Warboss be safer?
Yeah, but Warboss is also only 2 damage per turn, where this is 4 damage turn 4, 6 turn 5, 8 turn 6, and so on. I believe Warboss still outpaces Krenko in terms of damage per turn with Purphors in play, but Krenko's is harder to prevent since by turn 5, 10 non-combat damage would have been dealt.
e: initial math was wrong. Turn 3 Krenko turn 4 purphors should start outpacing turn 3 Warboss turn 4 purphoros on turn 5.
That's assuming you cast Krenko before Purphoros. In the large percentage of games where you draw the creature second, Legion Warboss gets 4 non-combat damage the turn it's cast as opposed to Krenko's 2. For the most part though, I don't think there will be a game warping difference between these token making 3 drops (rabblemaster excluded).
Card is good, but I think he's clearly the worst of all the 3 cmc red goblin rabblemaster impersonators.
Yes he has random upsides, one of which is that he's busted with equipment... But the lower turn 1-4 damage output does not make up for that imo. When evaluating these creatures, I would place a much greater emphasis on turns 1-4 damage output than any turns past that.
I'd run it if my cube was larger, but I'm convinced I don't want 5 of these effects in my cube at the moment.
Would not fault absolutely anyone for running it and I may change my mind in the future.
Ranking on Most resilient:
LW -3 (produces token even without attacking)
NtBB - 4 (not forced to attack)
HG - 2 (2/3)
GR - 5 (x/2, forced to attack)
NK - 1 (Increasing toughness)
Synergy (aside from the tokens they produce)
LW - equipment, +1/+1 counters (persist)
NtBB - warriors
HG - none
GR - goblins
NK - equipment/anthems
Will test the 3 goblins together as combination of:
Rabblemaster, warboss: most damage
Krenko: most resilient / tokens / equip/anthem synergy
Bottomline I think any of these are fine, depending on what you prioritize.
Currently I'm running Rabblemaster, Najeela and Garrison and probably only have space for 3 red 3-drop token producers (unless I cut Feldon). I didn't add Warboss with the last cycle but I suppose running the 3 Goblins together could be interesting. What do people think at the 360powered level?
This card is really cool and promotes interesting decisions to optimize it that the other Rabblemaster variants don't. Right now I play Rabblemaster, Najeela, and Hanweir Garrison because they all have slightly different gameplay and I like the added variability. Because of that I would probably add this before Legion Warboss.
I think Rabblemaster is the best by a reasonable margin, Najeela is the most interesting, and Hanweir Garrison is the worst on general power level IMO because of the inability to create a token immediately. However, I include Garrison as it's crazy powerful as part of the human package because it can make 2/2s fairly easily in my cube. I don't think Krenko this comes close to unseating any of these, and I don't think I'm looking for a 4th version.
I think this card is really good, and I look forward to sharing the crazy math/analysis I waded through to arrive at that conclusion when I write the set preview article for this set.
Oh, look, another Hanweir Garrison! So... do we start cutting some 3-CMC red token generators, or do we go all-in?
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
But the body does get progressively bigger (thus safer to attack with), and on turns 5+ it starts outpacing all but Najeela in terms of token production. But perhaps most importantly, you can crank up the token production by boosting power. Attaching a Rancor, Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear to him will be devastating. He's probably good enough to test.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
New Krenko
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/3, create 2 1/1 Goblins (2 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 3/4, attack with 2 1/1 Goblins, create 3 1/1 Goblins (7 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 4/5, attack with 5 1/1 Goblins, create 4 1/1 Goblins (16 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 5/6, attack with 9 1/1 Goblins, create 5 1/1 Goblins (30 damage)
Krenko goes 2/7/16/30
Hanweir Garrison
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/3, create 2 attacking 1/1 Humans (4 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 2 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (10 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 4 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (18 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 2/3, attack with 6 1/1 Humans, create 2 attacking 1/1 humans (28 damage)
Garrison goes 4/10/18/28
Najeela, the Blade-Blossom
Turn 3: Play
Turn 4: Attack as a 3/2, create 1 attacking 1/1 Warrior (4 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 1 1/1 Warrior, create 2 attacking 1/1 Warriors (10 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 3 1/1 Warriors, create 4 attacking 1/1 Warriors (20 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 3/2, attack with 7 1/1 Warriors, create 8 attacking 1/1 Warriors (38 damage)
Najeela goes 4/10/20/38
Legion Warboss
Turn 3: Play, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (1 damage)
Turn 4: Attack as a 2/2, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (6 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 1 2/2 Goblin, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (13 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 2 2/2 Goblins, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (22 damage)
Turn 7: Attack as a 2/2, attack with 3 2/2 Goblins, create 1 attacking 1/1 Goblin with a +1/+1 counter from mentor, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (33 damage)
Warboss goes 6/13/22/33
Goblin Rabblemaster
Turn 3: Play, attack with 1 1/1 Goblin (1 damage)
Turn 4: Attack as a 4/2, attack with 2 1/1 Goblins (7 damage)
Turn 5: Attack as a 5/2, attack with 3 1/1 Goblins (15 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 6/2, attack with 4 1/1 Goblins (25 damage)
Turn 6: Attack as a 7/2, attack with 5 1/1 Goblins (37 damage)
Rabblemaster goes 7/15/25/37
Please correct me if my maths is wrong!
How would everyone rank the red 3-drop token producers?
@wtwlf123 - edited with thanks!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
That said, this guy is very interesting to me. Assuming the tokens don't enter attacking, which makes a lot of sense to me given how quickly new Krenko scales up, I still think he's pretty sweet. The fact that you can slap a sword on him and start pumping out 4+ tokens immediately is super enticing and I think it will make deckbuilding with this guy very interesting. I'm more interested in Krenko 2.0 than I am Warboss and Najeela. He seems like a unique spin on (what is now) a staple effect in red.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I thought this was gonna be a windmill slam until I saw the tokens aren't attacking.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
As someone who ran sin prodder, I think this guy is clearly better. If you're deciding between all 3 of the, I think Najeela is probably better.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
[180 classic cube]
Edit* I think i'll try this over Najeela. When you have to attack to create tokens I value the extra toughness over power and if you do get a second attack with Krenko you're just creating so much more board presence.
Yeah, but Warboss is also only 2 damage per turn, where this is 4 damage turn 4, 6 turn 5, 8 turn 6, and so on.
I believe Warboss still outpaces Krenko in terms of damage per turn with Purphors in play, but Krenko's is harder to prevent since by turn 5, 10 non-combat damage would have been dealt.e: initial math was wrong. Turn 3 Krenko turn 4 purphors should start outpacing turn 3 Warboss turn 4 purphoros on turn 5.
[180 classic cube]
Yes he has random upsides, one of which is that he's busted with equipment... But the lower turn 1-4 damage output does not make up for that imo. When evaluating these creatures, I would place a much greater emphasis on turns 1-4 damage output than any turns past that.
I'd run it if my cube was larger, but I'm convinced I don't want 5 of these effects in my cube at the moment.
Would not fault absolutely anyone for running it and I may change my mind in the future.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I love these kinds of effects so I'll probably just play all of 'em.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Turn : 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8
LW : 1 / 6 / 13 / 22 / 33 / 46 - 2
NtBB : 0 / 4 / 10 / 19 / 32 / 50 - 3
HG : 0 / 4 / 10 / 18 / 28 / 40 - 4
GR : 1 / 7 / 15 / 25 / 37 / 51 - 1
NK : 0 / 2 / 7 / 16 / 30 / 50 - 5
Ranking based on Cumulative Tokens:
Turn : 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8
LW : 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 - 4/5
NtBB : 0 / 1 / 3 / 7 / 16 / 33 - 2
HG : 0 / 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 - 3
GR : 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 - 4/5
NK : 0 / 2 / 5 / 9 / 14 / 20 - 1
Ranking on Most resilient:
LW -3 (produces token even without attacking)
NtBB - 4 (not forced to attack)
HG - 2 (2/3)
GR - 5 (x/2, forced to attack)
NK - 1 (Increasing toughness)
Synergy (aside from the tokens they produce)
LW - equipment, +1/+1 counters (persist)
NtBB - warriors
HG - none
GR - goblins
NK - equipment/anthems
Will test the 3 goblins together as combination of:
Rabblemaster, warboss: most damage
Krenko: most resilient / tokens / equip/anthem synergy
Bottomline I think any of these are fine, depending on what you prioritize.
I think Rabblemaster is the best by a reasonable margin, Najeela is the most interesting, and Hanweir Garrison is the worst on general power level IMO because of the inability to create a token immediately. However, I include Garrison as it's crazy powerful as part of the human package because it can make 2/2s fairly easily in my cube. I don't think Krenko this comes close to unseating any of these, and I don't think I'm looking for a 4th version.
Social Media: Twitter, Twitch
MTG Articles: 200+ Articles on StarCityGames.com, MTG Draft AI Article
MTG AI Code: Limited Draft Bot, CubeCobra Recommender System
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!