A solid hatebear for any cube with a heavy enough artifact theme. It's also the second Null Rod effect in two sets, so maybe there's not enough reason to play this with Karn, the Great Creator in existence. Still, this turns off mana rocks on turn two (like Null Rod), and attacks.
I want to like Collector Ouphe. The body's probably too small to matter when it's not shutting down artifacts, but it does look like a nice Survival of the Fittest/Green Sun's Zenith target.
I cubed with null rod and it was un-fun. Beyond oppressive to the artifact decks, which have been fairly balanced.
Collector Ouphe might be less un-fun, since creatures are easier to interact with than noncreature artifacts. It's also a better 23rd playable than Null Rod, which is just a silver bullet. But a bear is only so useful.
I like the Ouphe because it’s not a do-nothing against decks that are artifact light the way Stony Silence or Null Rod are. Feels more like a card you side out after game one rather than a card you sideboard into. IMO this is the most curable Null Rod we’ve seen and it may be cubable, I’m just not sold that I want this effect. I’ve never cubed this effect before.
I just added Karn, but I haven't gotten the chance to try it.
In an extremely powerful set, this is one of the easiest includes for me. Surprised at the lack of discussion. I guess unpowered cubes are not interested in this.
There are a few problems with Null Rod effects in even powered cubes:
- Even in a Vintage cube, the critical mass of mana rocks in the average deck to hit just isn't there for this to be relevant in most matchups.
- Not enough payoff to build around.
- In cube you'd much rather just play any Uktabi Orangutan effect over this
1. It will be a mediocre card in a lot of match-ups, but it's an absolute house in the matches where you really need it to be - broken (mostly Ux) decks with lots of mana accelerators (we're playing 15/360 in our cube) and other powerhouses like Time Vault or Engineered Explosives. You're always at a disadvantage against those decks, and Collector Ouphe gives you a fighting chance.
2. It doesn't require building around? I would normally play 3 Equipment cards MAX in an aggro deck and that's only if I drew the premium stuff (Skullclamp, Jitte, Grafted Wargear). I have zero issues having this extremely minor anti-synergy in my deck; my opponent will almost certainly be playing more artifacts and if he doesn't, I still get to play the Ouphe to my advantage as I can see the board state when I play it or have it get killed in combat. Of course if you managed to draft a lot of power, you probably shouldn't put Collector Ouphe in your deck. No biggie.
3. You're glossing over the fact that Collector Ouphe costs you only 2 mana, which is a massive difference. Urangutan is a better fit for more midrangey builds, and I certainly wouldn't play it over the likes of Goblin Rabblemaster in an aggro deck. A bear by contrast is much less embarrassing as a body for an aggro deck. Of course if you could play a Tin Street Hooligan in mono colours that always triggers you'd be an absolute madman not to play it. So on that one point we agree: Urangutan's triggered ability is superior to Ouphe's static ability.
People don’t cube with null rod, idk why they would cube with this. Being symmetrical sounds awful.
Symmetry kills a lot of cards. The Immortal Sun would be way better if it were not symmetrical. As is though, you're better off just playing planeswalkers in your deck rather than trying to avoid playing them to break the symmetry.
People don’t cube with null rod, idk why they would cube with this. Being symmetrical sounds awful.
Symmetry kills a lot of cards. The Immortal Sun would be way better if it were not symmetrical. As is though, you're better off just playing planeswalkers in your deck rather than trying to avoid playing them to break the symmetry.
But cards like Show and Tell, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire are symmetrical and we still cube those. Seems fine to have a card that you want to maindeck or sideboard in if you weren't able to secure broken artifacts that often don't get passed. (That said, I'm probably not cubing this, but if it were a 3/2 or a 2/3 I probably would.)
But cards like Show and Tell, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire are symmetrical and we still cube those.
- Show and Tell is a card that actually rewards you for heavily by building around it where Collector Ouphe does not.
- Smokestack and Tangle Wire aren't exactly symmetrical. Assuming you stack the triggers right, the effect of these cards are more harsh on your opponent than they are on you. I'm never tapping 4 permanents to my own Tangle Wire where my opponent is. When Tangle Wire goes down to 3 counters, I'm essentially only tapping 2 useful permanents since I'm also tapping the Tangle Wire.
I see collector ouphe more or less as a card in green based creature decks to shore up bad matchups. Its like how Abzan Pod decks used to mainboard 2-3 Thoughtseize in modern to hedge more against combo/ ramp decks as the deck itself is already favored against fair decks.
- If I was playing a green based creature/ combo deck in cube, I don't see how I can beat the fast mana out of WildFire/ Storm/ Artifact decks (bad matchups) without a turn 1 elf or artifact hate 3 drop like Reclamation Sage.
- On the other hand, the green based creature decks by nature should already be favored red/ white aggressive strategies. Having a 2/2 body that doesn't do much should be see as a hedge not a draw-back
- Artifact decks by nature should already have answers to creatures. I don't see this as more oppressive than Ancient Grudge, Kolaghan's Command or Fiery Confluence
- Turn 2 Ouphes are very effective at shutting down Talisman/ Signets - this could be very good at not only cutting off the opponent's tempo, but also their colored mana sources. Playing an uncontested 4-5 drop planeswalker (i.e. Jace/ Karn) is pretty much an auto win against creature decks.
- If I'm playing a green creature midrange deck (i.e. Recurring Nightmare/ Aristocrats) against another creature deck, I would gladly give up access to my own equipment if it the opponent also loses access to their equipment. The last thing I would like see is the opponent playing Jitte/ Swords and wrecking my board. Green creatures decks should already be favored in this type of fights.
As someone that played a lot of Storm/ Affinity against control in constructed Legacy/ Modern, I found the best strategy is what I refer to as "I dictate the speed of the game". In this case, when playing the aggro/ combo deck, I don't mind going to turns 10-15 as long as the opponent doesn't have a recurring source of card advantage (i.e. Planeswalker/ Monastery Mentor) - In constructed this means countering/ casting removal spells/ attacking it with mainlands.
I find in cube, this means being able to maintain the tempo advantage with creatures to attack down walkers/ pressure the opponent's life total (Forcing them to use sweepers preemptively, not able to spend mana on card advantage cards etc.)
Collector Ouphe could be very good at slowing down the opponent's fast mana and ensuring swords, sweepers and planeswalkers comes down at a later stage of the game. If the slower player cannot gain a reasonable card advantage, the game is still pretty favorable to the aggro player.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Any more thoughts on the Ouphe? Always feels like a sleeper waiting to get into my Cube…
Ouphe is a very specific answer to a very specific problem. If you look at how Vintage utilizes Collector Ouphe / Null Rod, those decks either don't really care about artifact acceleration that much or can ignore the symmetry with Mishra's Workshop / Ancient Tomb. Personally I really don't see the appeal of Collector Ouphe in a typical vintage cube over any Naturalize / Reclamation Sage effect.
On one hand, a heavy green deck might not care too much about mana rocks since they have mana dorks. On the other hand, it still nerfs possible Moxen / Sol Ring / Black Lotus / etc that you might have, and other key cards that go well with creature heavy decks like Skullclamp / Jitte / Copter / etc.
Any more thoughts on the Ouphe? Always feels like a sleeper waiting to get into my Cube…
I think this is a good card and the strength of artifact decks flooding the board, especially Saga/ Tolarian decks were a problem and hence I've shorted listed a bunch of cards including Brotherhood's End, Kataki War's Wage and Collector Ouphe
I've found that Collector Ouphe is a good card, but it comes short against both Tolarian and Saga, which have been two of the most problematic cards.
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Seems like a house for powered cube! Or is it too anti-fun?
I just added Karn, but I haven't gotten the chance to try it.
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Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
- Even in a Vintage cube, the critical mass of mana rocks in the average deck to hit just isn't there for this to be relevant in most matchups.
- Not enough payoff to build around.
- In cube you'd much rather just play any Uktabi Orangutan effect over this
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
1. It will be a mediocre card in a lot of match-ups, but it's an absolute house in the matches where you really need it to be - broken (mostly Ux) decks with lots of mana accelerators (we're playing 15/360 in our cube) and other powerhouses like Time Vault or Engineered Explosives. You're always at a disadvantage against those decks, and Collector Ouphe gives you a fighting chance.
2. It doesn't require building around? I would normally play 3 Equipment cards MAX in an aggro deck and that's only if I drew the premium stuff (Skullclamp, Jitte, Grafted Wargear). I have zero issues having this extremely minor anti-synergy in my deck; my opponent will almost certainly be playing more artifacts and if he doesn't, I still get to play the Ouphe to my advantage as I can see the board state when I play it or have it get killed in combat. Of course if you managed to draft a lot of power, you probably shouldn't put Collector Ouphe in your deck. No biggie.
3. You're glossing over the fact that Collector Ouphe costs you only 2 mana, which is a massive difference. Urangutan is a better fit for more midrangey builds, and I certainly wouldn't play it over the likes of Goblin Rabblemaster in an aggro deck. A bear by contrast is much less embarrassing as a body for an aggro deck. Of course if you could play a Tin Street Hooligan in mono colours that always triggers you'd be an absolute madman not to play it. So on that one point we agree: Urangutan's triggered ability is superior to Ouphe's static ability.
Symmetry kills a lot of cards. The Immortal Sun would be way better if it were not symmetrical. As is though, you're better off just playing planeswalkers in your deck rather than trying to avoid playing them to break the symmetry.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
But cards like Show and Tell, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire are symmetrical and we still cube those. Seems fine to have a card that you want to maindeck or sideboard in if you weren't able to secure broken artifacts that often don't get passed. (That said, I'm probably not cubing this, but if it were a 3/2 or a 2/3 I probably would.)
- Show and Tell is a card that actually rewards you for heavily by building around it where Collector Ouphe does not.
- Smokestack and Tangle Wire aren't exactly symmetrical. Assuming you stack the triggers right, the effect of these cards are more harsh on your opponent than they are on you. I'm never tapping 4 permanents to my own Tangle Wire where my opponent is. When Tangle Wire goes down to 3 counters, I'm essentially only tapping 2 useful permanents since I'm also tapping the Tangle Wire.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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- If I was playing a green based creature/ combo deck in cube, I don't see how I can beat the fast mana out of WildFire/ Storm/ Artifact decks (bad matchups) without a turn 1 elf or artifact hate 3 drop like Reclamation Sage.
- On the other hand, the green based creature decks by nature should already be favored red/ white aggressive strategies. Having a 2/2 body that doesn't do much should be see as a hedge not a draw-back
- Artifact decks by nature should already have answers to creatures. I don't see this as more oppressive than Ancient Grudge, Kolaghan's Command or Fiery Confluence
- Turn 2 Ouphes are very effective at shutting down Talisman/ Signets - this could be very good at not only cutting off the opponent's tempo, but also their colored mana sources. Playing an uncontested 4-5 drop planeswalker (i.e. Jace/ Karn) is pretty much an auto win against creature decks.
- If I'm playing a green creature midrange deck (i.e. Recurring Nightmare/ Aristocrats) against another creature deck, I would gladly give up access to my own equipment if it the opponent also loses access to their equipment. The last thing I would like see is the opponent playing Jitte/ Swords and wrecking my board. Green creatures decks should already be favored in this type of fights.
As someone that played a lot of Storm/ Affinity against control in constructed Legacy/ Modern, I found the best strategy is what I refer to as "I dictate the speed of the game". In this case, when playing the aggro/ combo deck, I don't mind going to turns 10-15 as long as the opponent doesn't have a recurring source of card advantage (i.e. Planeswalker/ Monastery Mentor) - In constructed this means countering/ casting removal spells/ attacking it with mainlands.
I find in cube, this means being able to maintain the tempo advantage with creatures to attack down walkers/ pressure the opponent's life total (Forcing them to use sweepers preemptively, not able to spend mana on card advantage cards etc.)
Collector Ouphe could be very good at slowing down the opponent's fast mana and ensuring swords, sweepers and planeswalkers comes down at a later stage of the game. If the slower player cannot gain a reasonable card advantage, the game is still pretty favorable to the aggro player.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Ouphe is a very specific answer to a very specific problem. If you look at how Vintage utilizes Collector Ouphe / Null Rod, those decks either don't really care about artifact acceleration that much or can ignore the symmetry with Mishra's Workshop / Ancient Tomb. Personally I really don't see the appeal of Collector Ouphe in a typical vintage cube over any Naturalize / Reclamation Sage effect.
On one hand, a heavy green deck might not care too much about mana rocks since they have mana dorks. On the other hand, it still nerfs possible Moxen / Sol Ring / Black Lotus / etc that you might have, and other key cards that go well with creature heavy decks like Skullclamp / Jitte / Copter / etc.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I think this is a good card and the strength of artifact decks flooding the board, especially Saga/ Tolarian decks were a problem and hence I've shorted listed a bunch of cards including Brotherhood's End, Kataki War's Wage and Collector Ouphe
I've found that Collector Ouphe is a good card, but it comes short against both Tolarian and Saga, which have been two of the most problematic cards.