I am starting this thread, in hopes of having a good discussion about Green 4 drops. (seems fitting since Questing Beast was just spoiled.
I am hoping to start a thread discussion like this 1 per week and work my way through Various groups of cards. For example, one week it might be Green 4 drops, and next week it could be a guild discussion, a thread about white removal, or blue counterspells for example. The This or That thread while great, sometimes lacks the inability to focus on specific groups of cards that can be run together either in the same slot, and it is hard to go back and analyze information, but is a great way to get feedback from others about which cards to run. I want to have one of these per weeks to allow for more thoughtful analysis, and I don't want to burn myself out trying to create a new thread each week.
Basically this can be thought of as the Random Cube Card of the day but from a more big-picture perspective. I know there is a previous Green 4 drops thread found here, and if they need to be merged that is fine, but I wanted to create a new thread so this introduction post does not get lost in the middle of the thread. Not all colors have had threads to discuss the different sections of each color as well, and Ideally, it would be nice if this discussion is popular enough, we can get them grouped together in a subthread to make them easy to find later.
So onto This weeks discussion. What does everyone think of Green 4 drops these days.
My current section is testing out (reference size cube =411 right now) Nightpack Ambusher, Oracle of Mul Daya, Thrun, the last Troll, Voracious Hydra
With the soon to be printed Questing Beast, this may be the card that is needed to really turn Green 4 drops from a reactive support role into a more aggressive slant. Oracle can still play a role in the more Green ramp decks, and Voracious Hydra can fit into more midrange decks or large ramp decks, Thrun has always been good to do his resilient nature, and Running Night pack Ambusher and Questing Beast can give 2 different threats that can make the deck get some good damage in.
I'd play any all of these (and several others) before running Oracle of Mul Daya or Master of the Wild Hunt.
I want my green 4 drops to be hasty/flashy/hexproofy or come with an enter the battlefield ability. Mull Daya and MotWH are overcosted and outdated.
I'd play any all of these (and several others) before running Oracle of Mul Daya or Master of the Wild Hunt.
I want my green 4 drops to be hasty/flashy/hexproofy or come with an enter the battlefield ability. Mull Daya and MotWH are overcosted and outdated.
I think Vengevine is the best of them for us just because we don't build our Cube to feature midrange very much. You can play midrange in every format ever while there is almost nowhere else to unleash the ridiculousness available in Cube. So that ends up not being a very kind position for green 4 drops.
What do you guys think of Bramble Sovereign? It has a meh floor but incredible ceiling.
Don't like it. The floor is really bad, and the ceiling, while incredible, relies on having other cards.
Compare that to cards like Hero of Bladehold. The floor is the same, but if you get to untap you don't need anything else for the Hero to be good.
What do you guys think of Bramble Sovereign? It has a meh floor but incredible ceiling.
Had bad experience with it. Bad topdeck, hard to use on curve and overall a bit too optimistic and win-morey. You need your four drop to survive long enough for you to draw strong ETB creatures and have enough mana to cast them + pay two extra.
Caller of the untamed is very strong. Every draft we find new creative uses to the card. She is also splashable - a rarity among green four drops.
Oracle is very good if you support ramp decks. She is unplayable in midrange.
I also really like Polukranos, as it plays a double role as a midrange beater and a mana sink for ramp decks. It is also a rare green removal.
Thrun is fine, but I think generally overrated. He is ignorable without pump.
After those 4, the rest are either in testing process or on the chopping block for me. I play 7 green four drops at 720, and would play more once we have access to enough good ones.
Master of the Wild Hunt - Strong token production + removal. Its place is still pretty safe in my cube though we are starting to see competition that gets closer to it. Oracle of Mul Daya - Good in ramp. Helps you get to the cards you want. This is falling out of favor for me though for 2 big reasons...First, I hate giving my opponent a preview of what spells I'm going to be casting by having my top card revealed. I really wish you could just look at it at anytime. Second, four mana is pretty late for ramp. Including the talismans over the signets made my ramp even faster and more effective. I don't need 4 drop ramp so much when I can get to 7 or even 8 mana reliably (where most of my top end threats are) with 1-2 CC ramp. Polukranos, World Eater - Big body + removal in one card. This card is pretty safe. Thrun, the Last Troll - Resilience embodied. This card doesn't blow me away, but it's still pretty safe for now.
Thoughts on other green 4 drop creatures.... Questing Beast - Looks incredible, get in my cube. Nightpack Ambusher - Great card....in standard. This card only has a home in a simic/bant deck heavy with counters/flash support. Cube does not have the support to make this work and not being able to cast spells on your turn is a huge drawback for an additional 3/3 body. This does has some value as a combat trick, but holding up four mana tends to telegraph it. Wickerbough Elder - This is a relic. Artifact and enchantment removal has gotten much better across the board and this card doesn't belong in small/medium cubes period. I said it. Fight me...I kid, lol. Yeva, Nature's Herald - No. This is worse than Nightpack Ambusher especially since it limits the effect to green creatures. Wolfbriar Elemental - No. Card is a vanilla 4/4 in its 4CC mode and has a deckbuilding constraint requiring that you be heavy in green. Late game this guy can be a blowout in certain decks which isn't nothing, but it isn't enough to make this worth cubing. Wicked Wolf - If we didn't just get Voracious Hydra this would be a more serious contender. As is, I trade one point of power at the same cost for added flexibility in both casting cost and mode. The food part is pretty much flavor text. Vengevine - 3 toughness and lack of resilience really hurts this card for me. This card reminds me of Arclight Phoenix in that it is much much better in multiples. I don't think it is good enough in a singleton format. Also, it fits best in a green aggro archetype that it still wanting for enough options to be viable in most cubes, IMO. Bramble Sovereign - I have watched this one for a long time, but the feedback has been negative enough to discourage me from trying it. (I don't proxy, so card value definitely factors into my decisions on whether to test cards which makes player feedback critical.) Caller of the Untamed - This looks interesting, but I'm not big on cards that require you to do things pregame. Also, seems a bit slow and mana intensive just from observation.
So TL;DR
Questing Beast ++
Master of the Wild Hunt +
Polukranos +
Thrun +
Oracle of Mul Daya -
Nightpack Ambusher -
Vengevine -
Bramble Sovereign -
Wicked Wolf -
Wolfbriar Elemental -
Caller of the Untamed -
Yeva --
Wickerbough Elder ---
If you are open to the idea of running gimmicky cards, I think caller of the untamed doesn’t get enough love.
It’s not amazing, but prior to throne of Eldraine it was in my top 4. This came after a fair bit of exploration of niche choices at this spot. It can take over the game by itself as well as if not better than master of wild hunt.. and has a critical extra toughness for survival.
Also, I run obstinate baloth and have for 5 years. It serves a dual roll of ok in main deck in blink/pod decks and as an incredible sideboard card against discard heavy decks or agro.
I'd play any all of these (and several others) before running Oracle of Mul Daya or Master of the Wild Hunt.
I want my green 4 drops to be hasty/flashy/hexproofy or come with an enter the battlefield ability. Mull Daya and MotWH are overcosted and outdated.
I think Vengevine is the best of them for us just because we don't build our Cube to feature midrange very much. You can play midrange in every format ever while there is almost nowhere else to unleash the ridiculousness available in Cube. So that ends up not being a very kind position for green 4 drops.
Sooo why play any of the green 4 drop creatures? Is green Agro supported for you? Don’t see what vengevine really does in typical super high powered formats in green decks.
Thrunn and obstinate baloth are at least great sideboard cards.
I'd play any all of these (and several others) before running Oracle of Mul Daya or Master of the Wild Hunt.
I want my green 4 drops to be hasty/flashy/hexproofy or come with an enter the battlefield ability. Mull Daya and MotWH are overcosted and outdated.
I think Vengevine is the best of them for us just because we don't build our Cube to feature midrange very much. You can play midrange in every format ever while there is almost nowhere else to unleash the ridiculousness available in Cube. So that ends up not being a very kind position for green 4 drops.
Sooo why play any of the green 4 drop creatures? Is green Agro supported for you? Don’t see what vengevine really does in typical super high powered formats in green decks.
Thrunn and obstinate baloth are at least great sideboard cards.
When we get more players there are always some who remember its glory days in other formats I guess. One thing that I've done before is seed a few of the fat 3-4 mana green cards for someone to pick up late if they have the haste Conspiracy, Immediate Action. We've been using Old Fogey in that role recently. The 5 drops are still too slow eg Kalonian Hydra} If you force snowlands he is a beating and a half vs white decks but we don't typically do that (people get very upset between him and Cold Snap).
Also, we're bo1
EDIT: re:Obstinate Baloth, have you tried Nullhide Ferox in that role?
If you are open to the idea of running gimmicky cards, I think caller of the untamed doesn’t get enough love.
It’s not amazing, but prior to throne of Eldraine it was in my top 4. This came after a fair bit of exploration of niche choices at this spot. It can take over the game by itself as well as if not better than master of wild hunt.. and has a critical extra toughness for survival.
Also, I run obstinate baloth and have for 5 years. It serves a dual roll of ok in main deck in blink/pod decks and as an incredible sideboard card against discard heavy decks or agro.
The thing with Clocknapper is that you need some way to abuse its ability because natively it isn't as good as you might think at first glance. I'm not sure if Caller of the Untamed qualifies as an effective way to abuse it or not though. It would be good once you (eventually) get it going.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
After thinking about it you're right and I'm underestimating the Caller. I'm going to lobby to include it in our next session.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
I've even seen a big ramp deck use Ashen Rider to success!
While not an optimal target, was extremly fun. I could hear the guy laughing from down the table as he went off.
Unless you guys are gambling for high stakes or having some kind of professional cube circuit, I do think fun should be a design principle to keep heavily in mind when debating between cards. I found caller to be a fun card.
Novelty is generally fun, and combining different cards with it means the card stays fresher for longer.
EDIT: re:Obstinate Baloth, have you tried Nullhide Ferox in that role?
Yes I have. Think Baloth is better against red which is the agro deck green wants sideboard cards for the most. The life gain is more important than the relative difficulty being killed.
I also try to include cards that work better in pod and have a constructed pedigree.. Both of which Obstinate baloth has an advantage over nullhide ferox.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
I've even seen a big ramp deck use Ashen Rider to success!
While not an optimal target, was extremly fun. I could hear the guy laughing from down the table as he went off.
Unless you guys are gambling for high stakes or having some kind of professional cube circuit, I do think fun should be a design principle to keep heavily in mind when debating between cards. I found caller to be a fun card.
Novelty is generally fun, and combining different cards with it means the card stays fresher for longer.
I concur on this point. Sometimes we push novelty to the point where it ends up being totally unfun. And then we just stop cubing for a while until everyone gets over the resentment. Being berserked out on turn 2 (fill in your own broken scenario) turns out to be really sucky. Who knew.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
I've even seen a big ramp deck use Ashen Rider to success!
While not an optimal target, was extremely fun. I could hear the guy laughing from down the table as he went off.
Unless you guys are gambling for high stakes or having some kind of professional cube circuit, I do think fun should be a design principle to keep heavily in mind when debating between cards. I found caller to be a fun card.
Novelty is generally fun, and combining different cards with it means the card stays fresher for longer.
Yeah I view this as one of the greater strengths of the card, as well as some of the hidden agendas. They always play slightly differently, encourage creativity and generate stories.
Ashen Rider is certainly risky, but sounds awesome that it worked.
Other points in its favor is that it is one of the few green four drops that doesn't cost double green mana, and that it allows usage of some of the undrafted cards, so more picks matter. Changing the named card between games is not rare, which amplifies this effect.
Caller is great with many cards. Glorybringer, Flametongue Kavu, Nightpack Ambusher and Deranged Hermit have all been used in recent drafts to great success.
I've even seen a big ramp deck use Ashen Rider to success!
While not an optimal target, was extremely fun. I could hear the guy laughing from down the table as he went off.
Unless you guys are gambling for high stakes or having some kind of professional cube circuit, I do think fun should be a design principle to keep heavily in mind when debating between cards. I found caller to be a fun card.
Novelty is generally fun, and combining different cards with it means the card stays fresher for longer.
Yeah I view this as one of the greater strengths of the card, as well as some of the hidden agendas. They always play slightly differently, encourage creativity and generate stories.
Ashen Rider is certainly risky, but sounds awesome that it worked.
Other points in its favor is that it is one of the few green four drops that doesn't cost double green mana, and that it allows usage of some of the undrafted cards, so more picks matter. Changing the named card between games is not rare, which amplifies this effect.
I am starting this thread, in hopes of having a good discussion about Green 4 drops. (seems fitting since Questing Beast was just spoiled.
I am hoping to start a thread discussion like this 1 per week and work my way through Various groups of cards. For example, one week it might be Green 4 drops, and next week it could be a guild discussion, a thread about white removal, or blue counterspells for example. The This or That thread while great, sometimes lacks the inability to focus on specific groups of cards that can be run together either in the same slot, and it is hard to go back and analyze information, but is a great way to get feedback from others about which cards to run. I want to have one of these per weeks to allow for more thoughtful analysis, and I don't want to burn myself out trying to create a new thread each week.
Basically this can be thought of as the Random Cube Card of the day but from a more big-picture perspective. I know there is a previous Green 4 drops thread found here, and if they need to be merged that is fine, but I wanted to create a new thread so this introduction post does not get lost in the middle of the thread. Not all colors have had threads to discuss the different sections of each color as well, and Ideally, it would be nice if this discussion is popular enough, we can get them grouped together in a subthread to make them easy to find later.
So onto This weeks discussion. What does everyone think of Green 4 drops these days.
My current section is testing out (reference size cube =411 right now)
Nightpack Ambusher,
Oracle of Mul Daya,
Thrun, the last Troll,
Voracious Hydra
With the soon to be printed Questing Beast, this may be the card that is needed to really turn Green 4 drops from a reactive support role into a more aggressive slant. Oracle can still play a role in the more Green ramp decks, and Voracious Hydra can fit into more midrange decks or large ramp decks, Thrun has always been good to do his resilient nature, and Running Night pack Ambusher and Questing Beast can give 2 different threats that can make the deck get some good damage in.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
Garruk Wildspeaker
Symbol Status
Thrun
Wickerbough Elder
Master of the Wild Hunt
Oracle of Mul Daya
Will probably cut Oracle for Questing Beast
Nightpack Ambusher
Thrun, the Last Troll
Questing Beast
Yeva, Nature's Herald
Wolfbriar Elemental
Wicked Wolf
Vengevine
I'd play any all of these (and several others) before running Oracle of Mul Daya or Master of the Wild Hunt.
I want my green 4 drops to be hasty/flashy/hexproofy or come with an enter the battlefield ability. Mull Daya and MotWH are overcosted and outdated.
I think Vengevine is the best of them for us just because we don't build our Cube to feature midrange very much. You can play midrange in every format ever while there is almost nowhere else to unleash the ridiculousness available in Cube. So that ends up not being a very kind position for green 4 drops.
Don't like it. The floor is really bad, and the ceiling, while incredible, relies on having other cards.
Compare that to cards like Hero of Bladehold. The floor is the same, but if you get to untap you don't need anything else for the Hero to be good.
Had bad experience with it. Bad topdeck, hard to use on curve and overall a bit too optimistic and win-morey. You need your four drop to survive long enough for you to draw strong ETB creatures and have enough mana to cast them + pay two extra.
Caller of the untamed is very strong. Every draft we find new creative uses to the card. She is also splashable - a rarity among green four drops.
Oracle is very good if you support ramp decks. She is unplayable in midrange.
I also really like Polukranos, as it plays a double role as a midrange beater and a mana sink for ramp decks. It is also a rare green removal.
Thrun is fine, but I think generally overrated. He is ignorable without pump.
After those 4, the rest are either in testing process or on the chopping block for me. I play 7 green four drops at 720, and would play more once we have access to enough good ones.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Master of the Wild Hunt - Strong token production + removal. Its place is still pretty safe in my cube though we are starting to see competition that gets closer to it.
Oracle of Mul Daya - Good in ramp. Helps you get to the cards you want. This is falling out of favor for me though for 2 big reasons...First, I hate giving my opponent a preview of what spells I'm going to be casting by having my top card revealed. I really wish you could just look at it at anytime. Second, four mana is pretty late for ramp. Including the talismans over the signets made my ramp even faster and more effective. I don't need 4 drop ramp so much when I can get to 7 or even 8 mana reliably (where most of my top end threats are) with 1-2 CC ramp.
Polukranos, World Eater - Big body + removal in one card. This card is pretty safe.
Thrun, the Last Troll - Resilience embodied. This card doesn't blow me away, but it's still pretty safe for now.
Thoughts on other green 4 drop creatures....
Questing Beast - Looks incredible, get in my cube.
Nightpack Ambusher - Great card....in standard. This card only has a home in a simic/bant deck heavy with counters/flash support. Cube does not have the support to make this work and not being able to cast spells on your turn is a huge drawback for an additional 3/3 body. This does has some value as a combat trick, but holding up four mana tends to telegraph it.
Wickerbough Elder - This is a relic. Artifact and enchantment removal has gotten much better across the board and this card doesn't belong in small/medium cubes period. I said it. Fight me...I kid, lol.
Yeva, Nature's Herald - No. This is worse than Nightpack Ambusher especially since it limits the effect to green creatures.
Wolfbriar Elemental - No. Card is a vanilla 4/4 in its 4CC mode and has a deckbuilding constraint requiring that you be heavy in green. Late game this guy can be a blowout in certain decks which isn't nothing, but it isn't enough to make this worth cubing.
Wicked Wolf - If we didn't just get Voracious Hydra this would be a more serious contender. As is, I trade one point of power at the same cost for added flexibility in both casting cost and mode. The food part is pretty much flavor text.
Vengevine - 3 toughness and lack of resilience really hurts this card for me. This card reminds me of Arclight Phoenix in that it is much much better in multiples. I don't think it is good enough in a singleton format. Also, it fits best in a green aggro archetype that it still wanting for enough options to be viable in most cubes, IMO.
Bramble Sovereign - I have watched this one for a long time, but the feedback has been negative enough to discourage me from trying it. (I don't proxy, so card value definitely factors into my decisions on whether to test cards which makes player feedback critical.)
Caller of the Untamed - This looks interesting, but I'm not big on cards that require you to do things pregame. Also, seems a bit slow and mana intensive just from observation.
So TL;DR
Questing Beast ++
Master of the Wild Hunt +
Polukranos +
Thrun +
Oracle of Mul Daya -
Nightpack Ambusher -
Vengevine -
Bramble Sovereign -
Wicked Wolf -
Wolfbriar Elemental -
Caller of the Untamed -
Yeva --
Wickerbough Elder ---
It’s not amazing, but prior to throne of Eldraine it was in my top 4. This came after a fair bit of exploration of niche choices at this spot. It can take over the game by itself as well as if not better than master of wild hunt.. and has a critical extra toughness for survival.
Also, I run obstinate baloth and have for 5 years. It serves a dual roll of ok in main deck in blink/pod decks and as an incredible sideboard card against discard heavy decks or agro.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Sooo why play any of the green 4 drop creatures? Is green Agro supported for you? Don’t see what vengevine really does in typical super high powered formats in green decks.
Thrunn and obstinate baloth are at least great sideboard cards.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
When we get more players there are always some who remember its glory days in other formats I guess. One thing that I've done before is seed a few of the fat 3-4 mana green cards for someone to pick up late if they have the haste Conspiracy, Immediate Action. We've been using Old Fogey in that role recently. The 5 drops are still too slow eg Kalonian Hydra} If you force snowlands he is a beating and a half vs white decks but we don't typically do that (people get very upset between him and Cold Snap).
Also, we're bo1
EDIT: re:Obstinate Baloth, have you tried Nullhide Ferox in that role?
Great flexible cost with evoke for getting through the last few damage on attack, or just taking down a unsuspecting Titan as a defensive play.
Great for death triggers for cards like meren of clan nel toth if you are into that kind of thing.
one of the best ways to get a combat trick into cube which is always difficult.
Briarhorn has always generated highlights whenever we've had it in. Really fond of it personally.
I think I'm going to test Caller of the Untamed in my next draft. It looks bonkers with Clocknapper!
The thing with Clocknapper is that you need some way to abuse its ability because natively it isn't as good as you might think at first glance. I'm not sure if Caller of the Untamed qualifies as an effective way to abuse it or not though. It would be good once you (eventually) get it going.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
After thinking about it you're right and I'm underestimating the Caller. I'm going to lobby to include it in our next session.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I've even seen a big ramp deck use Ashen Rider to success!
While not an optimal target, was extremly fun. I could hear the guy laughing from down the table as he went off.
Unless you guys are gambling for high stakes or having some kind of professional cube circuit, I do think fun should be a design principle to keep heavily in mind when debating between cards. I found caller to be a fun card.
Novelty is generally fun, and combining different cards with it means the card stays fresher for longer.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Yes I have. Think Baloth is better against red which is the agro deck green wants sideboard cards for the most. The life gain is more important than the relative difficulty being killed.
I also try to include cards that work better in pod and have a constructed pedigree.. Both of which Obstinate baloth has an advantage over nullhide ferox.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I concur on this point. Sometimes we push novelty to the point where it ends up being totally unfun. And then we just stop cubing for a while until everyone gets over the resentment. Being berserked out on turn 2 (fill in your own broken scenario) turns out to be really sucky. Who knew.
Yeah I view this as one of the greater strengths of the card, as well as some of the hidden agendas. They always play slightly differently, encourage creativity and generate stories.
Ashen Rider is certainly risky, but sounds awesome that it worked.
Other points in its favor is that it is one of the few green four drops that doesn't cost double green mana, and that it allows usage of some of the undrafted cards, so more picks matter. Changing the named card between games is not rare, which amplifies this effect.
A fresh new Caller of the Untamed story from today's draft. Opponent went first and got:
T1: Mana Elf
T2: Ancient Tomb, Caller naming Acidic Slime
I did not win that game.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Yeah, it was running plays like that through my mind that convinced me Caller is pretty good