Looks like the EtB fight tradition continues. This is no Ravenous Hydra, and it seems weak when compared directly to Questing Beast, but this creature is a slam dunk for my cube. Don't get hung up on the Food flavor text. This creature reads: "EtB, kill a majority of creatures in your cube." In GREEN. IMO Big Bad Wolf is an order a magnitude better for cube than Master of the Wild Hunt.
If anything this works well with Master of the Wild Hunt. I'm worried about when my opponent just has something bigger than a 3/3 on the board. Then I just paid 2GG for a Hill Giant.
Voracious Hydra does the job better even if slightly less efficient in the fight mode. The flexibility and modality of the Hydra makes it a much stronger cube card IMO.
I think I would include Voracious Hydra before this. At 4 mana, Hydra is a 2/3 where this is a 3/3, but Hyrda scales, has trample, and has the option of being huge if you don't need the fight ETB. Wicked Wolf could be okay redundancy if you want 2 of that effect.
Green's Skinrender, but worse. Still, removal is a premium for green and this does the job well enough since it's essentially both of Garruk Relentless's abilities at once. I wish they printed this like 10 years ago. As a green value spell, it competes with Obstinate Baloth. I think I like Obstinate Baloth more since it has a bigger body and can randomly juke your opponent's Hymn to Tourach / Liliana of the Veil / Mind Twist.
I've always said that the weakness of Birthing Pod has been the lack of 4-drop value creatures in green, so if you support Pod, this will be a nice addition. This is definitely the worst Nekrataal effect of out of them all (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, all Nekrataals are great), but it's the only one that green's got at 4-cmc.
This is the right way to make a Skinrender in green. It's fair all over, and it's not over-the-top with how pushed it is like Questing Beast. This is a card I would play, but it's not one I'll seek out. Green does need this kind of card to exist, and it could allow me to cut one of the more awkward pseudo removal cards in green.
I don't think I want a bad Skinrender in green, despite the lack of great 4cc creatures. Master of the Wild Hunt this is NOT, which not only kills a huge number of creatures too, but it can absolutely run away with the game if left unchecked. This card looks meh to me.
Master is a pretty dead horse at this point so I don’t want to go too far down the rabbit hole of bashing it, but I will say that if I’m playing any sort of proactive creature based deck and have any form of removal in hand, I’d be way happier to see my opponent drop MotWH than Wicked Wolf.
The food ability is flavor text, 90% of this card’s power is in the ability to kill a majority of critters in cube and leave behind a solid body.
While resilience to removal is always a consideration for me, I tend to evaluate cards assuming they won't be removed as I believe the likelihood of a threat sticking around at least for a turn or two is generally greater than that of it being removed--even in cube where removal is plentiful. This matches up pretty well with how I play too. I tend to play as though the opponent doesn't have the counter, removal, etc. because odds are they don't and if I'm going to lose, it is going to be because they beat the odds and not because I held back for fear of an answer they may not have. To be clear, it doesn't mean I'm going to lead with my primary threat when a player is holding up UU or overextend into a wrath.
In terms of Master of the Wild Hunt vs. Wicked Wolf that means I expect that more often than not I'm going to get at least 1 wolf from Master and if that holds true then Master has the capability to fight nearly as well as Wicked Wolf after just 1 turn and after two Master is MUCH better. This is just one axis though, creating more bodies has a lot of additional implications that push Master well beyond this card.
While resilience to removal is always a consideration for me, I tend to evaluate cards assuming they won't be removed as I believe the likelihood of a threat sticking around at least for a turn or two is generally greater than that of it being removed--even in cube where removal is plentiful. This matches up pretty well with how I play too. I tend to play as though the opponent doesn't have the counter, removal, etc. because odds are they don't and if I'm going to lose, it is going to be because they beat the odds and not because I held back for fear of an answer they may not have. To be clear, it doesn't mean I'm going to lead with my primary threat when a player is holding up UU or overextend into a wrath.
In terms of Master of the Wild Hunt vs. Wicked Wolf that means I expect that more often than not I'm going to get at least 1 wolf from Master and if that holds true then Master has the capability to fight nearly as well as Wicked Wolf after just 1 turn and after two Master is MUCH better. This is just one axis though, creating more bodies has a lot of additional implications that push Master well beyond this card.
If you want to use your own made up custom system to evaluate cards why not just rule that real Food can be used for Wicked Wolf. Throw a Zinger in the trash to make him indestructible. Or make them flush it if you're pretty sure they'll fish it out of the waste basket later and eat it anyway.
@MarlKarx: Great contribution to the discussion as always!
I'm not sure what so outlandish about the idea that creatures tend to resolve and stick more frequently then they are removed and factoring that into my comparisons of these two cards? If that isn't your experience, then by all means say so, but not as you have above.
I thought this gave you one food token on etb for some reason and was pretty hyped. Spoiler: it doesn’t. Questing beast killed any remaining hype I had for this.
If you want to use your own made up custom system to evaluate cards why not just rule that real Food can be used for Wicked Wolf.
Well we all use our own made up systems of evaluating cards. That's what we do here: we evaluate cards based on our experience as well as the general assumptions of cube.
Just because the cube community as a whole has turned on Master of the Wild Hunt doesn't make it silly to keep evaluating it. It makes particular sense in this instance.
I do think that Wicked Wolf is better because it is simple, and Master is fancy. Green's solution may not be as efficient as Skinrender or Flametongue Kavu, but it's in a color that needs removal more. All in all, that makes this card easy to evaluate: it's right on the threshold of cube playablility, and as such it will be played by some and ignored by most. Master is a lot harder to initially evaluate, but it turns out not to have really stood the test of time for most. But it's still a worthy consideration.
To assume Master of the Wild Hunt is dead on arrival is just as silly as assuming it'll stick around for at least three turns. It's a fabulously powerful card, and just because it's not a staple anymore doesn't make it laughable.
Of course, Questing Beast is a more overtly playable card than this one anyway. It's bristling with Timmyness.
@Mergatroid: Too right, and if someone has had a different experience or can provide sound reasoning as to why something believed may not actually be so they can say so, respectfully. For instance, just recently in the Robber of the Rich thread I suggested that Ash Zealot wouldn't be cubed even as a 1R creature and a couple people challenged me on that and you know what....they're right! Additionally, we have the added benefit of still having a great rapport because neither of them resorted to being rude just because they didn't agree with me.
On another note, I'm not sure where you get that "the cube community as a whole has turned on Master of the Wild Hunt". I watch pretty closely for cards that have fallen out of favor and this one still has widespread support. It may be under increasing scrutiny now since we just got a couple new 2GG with cube potential (Nightpack Ambusher, Questing Beast) but this is only a recent phenomenon.
If you want to use your own made up custom system to evaluate cards why not just rule that real Food can be used for Wicked Wolf. Throw a Zinger in the trash to make him indestructible. Or make them flush it if you're pretty sure they'll fish it out of the waste basket later and eat it anyway.
MarlKarx definitely could have been more delicate with his phrasing, but @BlackWaltz... not gonna lie playing as though your opponent does not have interaction seems pretty inept. Maybe I'm not understanding your philosophy here and you could expound a little more?
Honestly, I think we'd be better served just discussing this card and not making a mountain out of a molehill. He said something rude, I pointed it out, and now we can leave it. I don't mean to be dismissive or disrespectful, just really think it isn't worth spending more time on.
I think this card is pretty close, but I might still keep Master of the Wild Hunt over this, just because he goes in the stax deck and has a higher ceiling than this guy. If this just dealt its power in damage to a creature, so it could kill other 3 power creatures, I think it would get there.
I've heard of eating like a Wolf, but this is ridiculicious!
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Fair enough. I was asking about what you said before the offending comment, but no worries.
I think the following reddit thread does a really good job at fully fleshing out what I've stated here if you want to go more in depth. The jist being that immediate value/resilience in the face of removal is important but so is impact if your opponent can't deal with it. The higher up the CMC chain you go the more impact you have to get in exchange for lacking some immediate value/resilience.
Fair enough. I was asking about what you said before the offending comment, but no worries.
I think the following reddit thread does a really good job at fully fleshing out what I've stated here if you want to go more in depth. The jist being that immediate value/resilience in the face of removal is important but so is impact if your opponent can't deal with it. The higher up the CMC chain you go the more impact you have to get in exchange for lacking some immediate value/resilience.
Fair enough. I was asking about what you said before the offending comment, but no worries.
I think the following reddit thread does a really good job at fully fleshing out what I've stated here if you want to go more in depth. The jist being that immediate value/resilience in the face of removal is important but so is impact if your opponent can't deal with it. The higher up the CMC chain you go the more impact you have to get in exchange for lacking some immediate value/resilience.
Link?
Oh. Crapola! Forgot that part. That might have been helpful....
Looks like the EtB fight tradition continues. This is no Ravenous Hydra, and it seems weak when compared directly to Questing Beast, but this creature is a slam dunk for my cube. Don't get hung up on the Food flavor text. This creature reads: "EtB, kill a majority of creatures in your cube." In GREEN. IMO Big Bad Wolf is an order a magnitude better for cube than Master of the Wild Hunt.
Voracious Hydra does the job better even if slightly less efficient in the fight mode. The flexibility and modality of the Hydra makes it a much stronger cube card IMO.
[180 classic cube]
I've always said that the weakness of Birthing Pod has been the lack of 4-drop value creatures in green, so if you support Pod, this will be a nice addition. This is definitely the worst Nekrataal effect of out of them all (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, all Nekrataals are great), but it's the only one that green's got at 4-cmc.
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The food ability is flavor text, 90% of this card’s power is in the ability to kill a majority of critters in cube and leave behind a solid body.
In terms of Master of the Wild Hunt vs. Wicked Wolf that means I expect that more often than not I'm going to get at least 1 wolf from Master and if that holds true then Master has the capability to fight nearly as well as Wicked Wolf after just 1 turn and after two Master is MUCH better. This is just one axis though, creating more bodies has a lot of additional implications that push Master well beyond this card.
If you want to use your own made up custom system to evaluate cards why not just rule that real Food can be used for Wicked Wolf. Throw a Zinger in the trash to make him indestructible. Or make them flush it if you're pretty sure they'll fish it out of the waste basket later and eat it anyway.
I'm not sure what so outlandish about the idea that creatures tend to resolve and stick more frequently then they are removed and factoring that into my comparisons of these two cards? If that isn't your experience, then by all means say so, but not as you have above.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Well we all use our own made up systems of evaluating cards. That's what we do here: we evaluate cards based on our experience as well as the general assumptions of cube.
Just because the cube community as a whole has turned on Master of the Wild Hunt doesn't make it silly to keep evaluating it. It makes particular sense in this instance.
I do think that Wicked Wolf is better because it is simple, and Master is fancy. Green's solution may not be as efficient as Skinrender or Flametongue Kavu, but it's in a color that needs removal more. All in all, that makes this card easy to evaluate: it's right on the threshold of cube playablility, and as such it will be played by some and ignored by most. Master is a lot harder to initially evaluate, but it turns out not to have really stood the test of time for most. But it's still a worthy consideration.
To assume Master of the Wild Hunt is dead on arrival is just as silly as assuming it'll stick around for at least three turns. It's a fabulously powerful card, and just because it's not a staple anymore doesn't make it laughable.
Of course, Questing Beast is a more overtly playable card than this one anyway. It's bristling with Timmyness.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
On another note, I'm not sure where you get that "the cube community as a whole has turned on Master of the Wild Hunt". I watch pretty closely for cards that have fallen out of favor and this one still has widespread support. It may be under increasing scrutiny now since we just got a couple new 2GG with cube potential (Nightpack Ambusher, Questing Beast) but this is only a recent phenomenon.
Not a very bright remark.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think the following reddit thread does a really good job at fully fleshing out what I've stated here if you want to go more in depth. The jist being that immediate value/resilience in the face of removal is important but so is impact if your opponent can't deal with it. The higher up the CMC chain you go the more impact you have to get in exchange for lacking some immediate value/resilience.
Link?
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Oh. Crapola! Forgot that part. That might have been helpful....
Reddit Link