*Long post incoming. Hopefully you’ll be able to read to the end and then share your thoughts!*
*Mods, there are a couple of posts related to these combos, but they seem to be older and/or not fully relevant. Please feel free to merge, if needed*
Hi everyone,
I’m looking for help in adding a larger combo element to my cube. I know there’s been a lot of discussion on this forum about this subject over the last couple of years, so I’m hoping you can help!
For context, I’ve been building my cube playing casually with friends over the past couple of years. The cube is around legacy power level (cubetutor link is here. Note that it hasn’t been updated with more recent sets). Over time I’ve realised that my play group hates playing against cards they find un-interactive (True-Name Nemesis, Mother of Runes, Recurring Nightmare) or game ending out of nowhere (Eldrazi, Kiki combo). As a result, I’ve cut a lot of combo elements (although things like reanimator and Sneak Attack remain).
A couple of other things I want to mention:
I’m pretty happy with where Blue and Red are at in my list.
On the other hand I am not a fan of white… hoping that some combo can spice it up!
With the recent printing of tutors like Finale of Devastation, Vivien and Fiend Artisan, I’m really excited about the potential for non-blue based combos to be consistent.
I’m looking to strike a balance between the tension that combo brings to games (i.e., always needing to ask yourself “do they have it”) vs the feel bad moments of being killed out of nowhere when there’s nothing you can do about it.
Anyways, I’m hoping that you can help me answer these questions:
In a cube of 450-500 cards, if I include the cards I’ve listed below, will I have the density of pieces needed to make the combos viable? As much as possible I’m trying to avoid putting narrow/‘bad’ cards in.
Tied to my first question, are there any playable + redundant effects that I’m missing? Also, are there any other combos I should consider?
How do people feel about imbalanced gold/guild sections? The changes that I’m considering would involve adding quite a few Selesnya cards, but I can’t imagine cutting something like Dryad Militant. Typically, when I read threads that ask this kind of question, the answers are “do what feels right for your cube”, but I’m curious about any thoughts beyond this.
Do these combos lead to the same kind of feel bad moments as cheating in Eldrazi or pulling off the Kiki combo? I’m hoping that they’ll be better, since for the most part they operate at sorcery speed, involve 3+ pieces, the pieces die to removal and they’re outside blue (which makes them more difficult to back up with counter magic).
In addition to the combos I listed below, I’m curious about the intruder alarm combo. In particular, is there any redundancy for intruder alarm or is it a unique effect?
On to the combo’s I’m considering:
1. Persist Combo
Free sacrifice outlets I’m running/considering:
Woe Strider
Carrion Feeder
Goblin Bombardment
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Yawgmoth
Greater Gargadon (sort of)
Other cards seem too weak outside of the combo (e.g., various altars, viscera seer)
Persist Creatures I’m running/considering:
Redcap
Finks
Puppeteer clique
Putrid Goblin
Glen Elendra
Woodfall Primus
Basri’s lieutenant
Other cards seem too weak outside of the combo (e.g., lesser masticore)
Enablers I’m running/considering:
Anafenza
Metallic Mimic
Luminous Broodmoth
Good Fortune Unicorn, Rhythm of the Wild, Grumgully and Renata called to the Hunt, Mikeus the Unhallowed (these cards seem okay outside of the combo, but not great. Are they worth running? If so, how many and which?).
Other cards seem too weak outside of the combo (e.g., Melira, Vizier of Remedies).
2. Selesnya ETB Loops
Sacrifice outlets I’m running/considering
(see under persist combo)
Enablers I’m running/considering
Saffi Eriksdotter
Karmic Guide
Reveillark
Sun Titan
Renegade Rallier
3. Lifegain Combo
Version 1
Walking Ballista or Triskelion + Heliod (Maybe Mikeus as well for Triskelion, but as I previously mentioned, I’m not sold on the card)
Version 2
Finks or Spike Feeder + Heliod or Archangel of Thune
Thanks for reading. Really looking forward to hearing what you have to say!
So, the more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm probably going to need more sac outlets to make these combos work. I was wondering what the power ranking of colourless sac outlets is. I'm guessing the best ones, in terms of playability both in and outside of combo, are blasting station and phyrexian/ashnods altar (although I'm not sure which of these two is better). Does that sound right?
Also, wtwlf, I've noticed that you've started to categorize some cards outside of their respective sections. Could you comment on your methodology? I could see counting something like Dryad Militant as 50% Green and 50% White, but I'm not really sure what to do with cards like Dismemeber (is it colourless or is the double Phyrexian mana a big enough deal to make it a black card) or Soulfire Grandmaster (would this ever get played as a white card or always in a Jeskai combination).
Also, wtwlf, I've noticed that you've started to categorize some cards outside of their respective sections. Could you comment on your methodology? I could see counting something like Dryad Militant as 50% Green and 50% White, but I'm not really sure what to do with cards like Dismemeber (is it colourless or is the double Phyrexian mana a big enough deal to make it a black card) or Soulfire Grandmaster (would this ever get played as a white card or always in a Jeskai combination).
I don't run many combos in my cube (just mainstream stuff like reanimator, sneak attack, channel etc) so I couldn't help much on that front, but I do categorize cards outside their color identities so I can answer this one.
Categorize cards by where they see the vast majority of their play. So, for me, lots on non-B decks run dismember and lots of non-U decks run metamorph, so they are colorless cards. Rakdos Cackler sees essentially 0 play outside of red decks, so it's red. When we still ran Mulitant, it saw the vast majority of its play in WW or Wx aggro, so it was a white card. Nature's Chant is a strictly better disenchant (minus sphinx of the steel wind), which we ran to give white another instant speed answer, and it's more important to the white decks as the green decks like their creatures for disenchants, so it's categorized as white.
My philosophy there is I'm trying to make an environment that is balanced across the colors, at least in terms of the cards available to each color. If I take up a spot in a color with a card that all colors can play, that color is made "worse" in the cube. Similarly, if I take up one of the very limited guild slots with a card that is primarily played in only decks that have 1 of the colors, then I'm making that guild worse. Also FWIW I had soulfire in Jeskai when I ran it because it's pretty bad in a mono-W deck.
If you want to avoid the feel bad/ oppressive combos, I would avoid these 5 cards.
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wtwlf - I should have taken a look at your cube thread first. My bad! Looking forward to giving it a read.
Breathe1234 - Of the cards you listed, I currently cube with Sneak Attack and Tinker (I cut Channel and Nightmare for the reasons you mentioned). I think I've managed to get Sneak Attack into a good place by cutting the cards it is most broken with (particularly the Eldrazi Titans). Tinker hasn't led to many feel bad moments yet, but I'm pretty sure that someday someone's going to land a turn 2 Inkwell Leviathan and their opponent is going to flip the table! I'll probably cut it at some point, but I'm not there yet.
A timely thread. I've been thinking about incorporating an infinite life gain or infinite damage combo since almost all the pieces are already present for me. It's the "enabler" that's missing. Just not sure if it makes sense to devote a slot to Metallic Mimic, Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit, or Good-Fortune Unicorn when they are basically ONLY combo pieces.
Another hidden gem for pushing red is: Dualcaster Mage + Heat Shimmer or Twinflame for infinite 2/2 with haste. You need a creature on the battlefield with Twinflame to start the combo, but it also works with a creature on the opponents side with Heat Shimmer. The neat thing about all three cards: None of them sucks in midrange decks. There are so many etb value creatures, that Heat Shimmer and Twinflame have a serviceable function outside of comboes.
Happyjosiah - The issue of needing to play narrow cards is something I’ve struggled with as well. At the same time, I think the 3 cards you mentioned aren’t terrible. Like, they’re certainly not amazing in the average cube deck, but I wouldn’t be embarrassed to run Mimic or Anafenza as a 23rd card in a white weenie deck or run Unicorn as a 23rd in a tokens shell.
I’m also starting to come around a bit more on the idea that it’s alright to run some number of narrow archetype specific pieces. Like, I’m already running a bunch of 1 drops that are terrible outside of aggro + things like Entomb, which is almost unplayable outside of reanimator. Since I’m already doing that, dedicating a few slots to interesting combos doesn’t seem so bad!
Daemion - That’s another interesting combo I’ve never considered! Red might be a little too tight in my list to make room for it, but I’ll definitely keep it in mind.
A timely thread. I've been thinking about incorporating an infinite life gain or infinite damage combo since almost all the pieces are already present for me. It's the "enabler" that's missing. Just not sure if it makes sense to devote a slot to Metallic Mimic, Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit, or Good-Fortune Unicorn when they are basically ONLY combo pieces.
FWIW, Mimic has been awesome in a variety of decks with tribal themes (humans, warriors and even goblins/zombies sometimes), Anafenza is actually really strong in WW aggro, and Unicorn has been surprisingly solid in token decks.
But you play a 360 card cube, so finding room for combo cards is particularly hard.
Thanks all! I think I'm going to try cutting Qasali Pridemage for Good-Fortune Unicorn for a while. I still have a decent amount of Selesnya cards (since I put hybrids in mono-color sections) so I don't think it will hurt too much.
I think Unicorn is the more interesting effect for sure. And it can also open up interactions with things like Basri's Lieutenant and the like, if you're interested in exploring more combos there.
*Mods, there are a couple of posts related to these combos, but they seem to be older and/or not fully relevant. Please feel free to merge, if needed*
Hi everyone,
I’m looking for help in adding a larger combo element to my cube. I know there’s been a lot of discussion on this forum about this subject over the last couple of years, so I’m hoping you can help!
For context, I’ve been building my cube playing casually with friends over the past couple of years. The cube is around legacy power level (cubetutor link is here. Note that it hasn’t been updated with more recent sets). Over time I’ve realised that my play group hates playing against cards they find un-interactive (True-Name Nemesis, Mother of Runes, Recurring Nightmare) or game ending out of nowhere (Eldrazi, Kiki combo). As a result, I’ve cut a lot of combo elements (although things like reanimator and Sneak Attack remain).
A couple of other things I want to mention:
On to the combo’s I’m considering:
1. Persist Combo
Free sacrifice outlets I’m running/considering:
Persist Creatures I’m running/considering:
Enablers I’m running/considering:
2. Selesnya ETB Loops
Sacrifice outlets I’m running/considering
(see under persist combo)
Enablers I’m running/considering
Version 1
Walking Ballista or Triskelion + Heliod (Maybe Mikeus as well for Triskelion, but as I previously mentioned, I’m not sold on the card)
Version 2
Finks or Spike Feeder + Heliod or Archangel of Thune
Thanks for reading. Really looking forward to hearing what you have to say!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Earthcraft + stuff like Utopia Sprawl + Sacred Mesa for infinite tokens
Mana doublers (for example Mirari's Wake) enable many silly infinite comboes
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Also, wtwlf, I've noticed that you've started to categorize some cards outside of their respective sections. Could you comment on your methodology? I could see counting something like Dryad Militant as 50% Green and 50% White, but I'm not really sure what to do with cards like Dismemeber (is it colourless or is the double Phyrexian mana a big enough deal to make it a black card) or Soulfire Grandmaster (would this ever get played as a white card or always in a Jeskai combination).
Thanks!
I don't run many combos in my cube (just mainstream stuff like reanimator, sneak attack, channel etc) so I couldn't help much on that front, but I do categorize cards outside their color identities so I can answer this one.
Categorize cards by where they see the vast majority of their play. So, for me, lots on non-B decks run dismember and lots of non-U decks run metamorph, so they are colorless cards. Rakdos Cackler sees essentially 0 play outside of red decks, so it's red. When we still ran Mulitant, it saw the vast majority of its play in WW or Wx aggro, so it was a white card. Nature's Chant is a strictly better disenchant (minus sphinx of the steel wind), which we ran to give white another instant speed answer, and it's more important to the white decks as the green decks like their creatures for disenchants, so it's categorized as white.
My philosophy there is I'm trying to make an environment that is balanced across the colors, at least in terms of the cards available to each color. If I take up a spot in a color with a card that all colors can play, that color is made "worse" in the cube. Similarly, if I take up one of the very limited guild slots with a card that is primarily played in only decks that have 1 of the colors, then I'm making that guild worse. Also FWIW I had soulfire in Jeskai when I ran it because it's pretty bad in a mono-W deck.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Just had a discussion about it over in my cube thread. I don't want to derail this thread talking about classification methodology.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There were come build around cards/ combo cards that I've noticed have been incredibly oppressive (outside of the power 9)
Tinker
Channel
Recurring Nightmare
Moat
Sneak Attack
If you want to avoid the feel bad/ oppressive combos, I would avoid these 5 cards.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Breathe1234 - Of the cards you listed, I currently cube with Sneak Attack and Tinker (I cut Channel and Nightmare for the reasons you mentioned). I think I've managed to get Sneak Attack into a good place by cutting the cards it is most broken with (particularly the Eldrazi Titans). Tinker hasn't led to many feel bad moments yet, but I'm pretty sure that someday someone's going to land a turn 2 Inkwell Leviathan and their opponent is going to flip the table! I'll probably cut it at some point, but I'm not there yet.
I’m also starting to come around a bit more on the idea that it’s alright to run some number of narrow archetype specific pieces. Like, I’m already running a bunch of 1 drops that are terrible outside of aggro + things like Entomb, which is almost unplayable outside of reanimator. Since I’m already doing that, dedicating a few slots to interesting combos doesn’t seem so bad!
Daemion - That’s another interesting combo I’ve never considered! Red might be a little too tight in my list to make room for it, but I’ll definitely keep it in mind.
FWIW, Mimic has been awesome in a variety of decks with tribal themes (humans, warriors and even goblins/zombies sometimes), Anafenza is actually really strong in WW aggro, and Unicorn has been surprisingly solid in token decks.
But you play a 360 card cube, so finding room for combo cards is particularly hard.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!