I think it is better to question the value of cards in their specific threads. The value of the discussion is much higher thanin a general thread like this.
That is probably a better idea - I love to hear opinions from people who love Acidic Slime and how they made it work.
This post shows that you don’t quite understand their complaints haha. I think everyone knows this is exactly the purpose of the thread, but it rubs a lot of people the wrong way I think.
Probably. Idk. I like constructive criticisms - I've learned alot on SCD forums about card interactions/ combos etc. I guess someone people that cubed with their cards for 10+ years are reluctant to make cuts.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
If the present wtwlf Cube list is more focused on cool interactions and archetypes rather than maximizing competitive gameplay, then that’s totally cool.
If you think those interactions, archetypes, and combos make the cube less powerful and less competitive, you're mistaken. The decks people create from my current cube configuration are just as powerful (if not more powerful) as the decks that were just focussed on using the best generic goodstuff cards like before. Combos and archetypes are competitive. It's just different than relying on the intrinsic powerlevel of your individual cards to shoulder the weight for you. Instead of using unfair cards to win in fair ways, you use combinations of fair cards to win in unfair ways. But I assure you, the decks are plenty powerful and competitive, and they can all win their fair share of drafts against the decks/cards that appear to be more conventionally powerful in cube.
The point isn't more competitive vs less competitive. It's that there are different ways for the cube to be competitive. Which is the point. If card X is underperforming for one person, it might not be because it's time has passed. It could be because the types of decks your cube configuration produces aren't conducive for those cards to be optimal. It could be that a particular playgroup doesn't like to draft the decks that certain cards are ideal in. But instead of exploring those intricacies and getting to the root of why cards underperform for one group and overperform for another, "sacred cow" threads assume their cube configuration is the only correct way to be competitive, and that their results are somehow more relevant than everyone elses are.
I feel is missing in the cube forum is discussions about the subpar cards like Deep Analysis, Mirari's Wake, Liliana of the Veil or Land Tax that are in the cube mostly because they been in the cube for so long and 1-2 people in your cube group loves it but you think its time has passed. There aren't really any SCD discussions really talking about them - People kinda just assumed they are staples that are never coming out.
This is what rubs people the wrong way. You don't say these cards don't work any more in our group, no you say 'these cards are subpar' and cube owners that still run these only do it because they are conservative, nostaligic. Have some fate, other cube owners are not dumb. They might actually still like these cards because they are good cards (for their environment)! People with different oppinions on cards are not always wrong.
Sure I get your drift. Power creep is a thing and cards do get pushed out over time because other more powerfull cards are printed. And we all are guilty of holding on to certain cards a bit too long at times. But cubes are so different and power level has evolved to a level where 'it depends on the enviroment' is not a way to kill discussions any more, but is just true a lot of times.
I think it is better to question the value of cards in their specific threads. The value of the discussion is much higher thanin a general thread like this.
For example, OP said he think Acidic Slime is not cutting it anymore. To me this is ridiculous as the card is still a very high pick (high power cube,500ish,competitive Spike players). In a specific thread you can go into details (which archetypes, how much anti-artifact, anti-land does green need,...)
In a thread like this things will either get lost in the discussion or end up with replies like 'Are you crazy! We still run it because it has been stellar for us'. Which helps nobody.
I think Wtwfl came off a bit haughty, even if he ment well. A bit like the old Wtfl did but with a different take We still need brutal card evaluation just as we did before. But Wtfwl has as point that the cube universe has grown tremendiously from when a lot of us 'old timers' started this niche Magic hobby. Back in 2009 or 2012 there were a lot clearer power levels. So working from the assumption that Cube managers want the most powerfull cards and the most powerfull archeytpes (allready we are losing a lot of cubes with these axioms), we could have a lot of good discussions about card X is better then card in those days.
Nowadays, things are a lot muddier. People run a lot of different archetypes and packages. The number of cards that are powerfull enough to get into a 'Power cube' has grown tremendiously. We have a 500 cube, but there are at least 250+cards that are good enough to be played at that size. Back in 2010 there were clear power levels: a 360 card, a 450 card, a 650 card, and the hopefull (or insulting) 'I would play that in a 850 cube, maybe' remark.
I for one am still open to discussing cards, but this format is unhelpfull. Before this meta discussion started, I had actually immediately decided to ignore this thread, because there was nothing to be learned here. As others have said on a psychological level this rubs a lot of people the wrong way. And a lot of people will ignore good remarks if you include what they consider staples in your list.'If he is dumb enough not to see hte value of card X, why listen to his reasoning about card A,B or C?'
Pretty much this, ya. Hicham did a much better job of illustrating the issues than I did with my (albeit unintended) "holier than thou" dumbassery.
I feel is missing in the cube forum is discussions about the subpar cards like Deep Analysis, Mirari's Wake, Liliana of the Veil or Land Tax that are in the cube mostly because they been in the cube for so long and 1-2 people in your cube group loves it but you think its time has passed. There aren't really any SCD discussions really talking about them - People kinda just assumed they are staples that are never coming out.
This is what rubs people the wrong way. You don't say these cards don't work any more in our group, no you say 'these cards are subpar' and cube owners that still run these only do it because they are conservative, nostaligic. Have some fate, other cube owners are not dumb. They might actually still like these cards because they are good cards (for their environment)! People with different oppinions on cards are not always wrong.
Sure I get your drift. Power creep is a thing and cards do get pushed out over time because other more powerfull cards are printed. And we all are guilty of holding on to certain cards a bit too long at times. But cubes are so different and power level has evolved to a level where 'it depends on the enviroment' is not a way to kill discussions any more, but is just true a lot of times.
I guess this is my problem then not the rest of the cube community's problem - I've kept way too many underperformers inside my cube because of a synergy/ archetype I envisioned. Maybe this is more my problem than everyone else's in the community.
I've been incredibly reluctant to cut subpar cards. Those 4 cards I've listed are all cards that have under performed for us but I never got around to cutting. In fact, my cube has grown to 1000+ cards because of the massive power creep and my reluctance to cut cards that aren't good. The worst example is my green 4 drop section:
Nightpack Ambusher, Oracle of Mul Daya, Polukranos, Questing Beast, Vengevine, Magus of the Order, Path of Discovery, Shifting Ceratops, Garruk Relentless, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Unleashed, Master of the Wild Hunt, Bramble Soverign ..
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Liliana of the Veil - I don't see how in cube you can "liliana someone out" anymore. The edict isn't that good given the speed of the format + haste, tokens etc. The amount of card advantage + draw 7 has made the discard too even. Discard has been pretty bad, even in reanimator decks - I find if I'm using her as a discard outlet, its a easy 2 for 1 in my opponent's favor as she will prob be attacked down without something like Tarmogoyf blocking.
Sword of Body and Mind - Mill 10 seems to be too much of an upside given the graveyard synergies. I don't really understand how this is good
Acidic Slime - This just seems way too slow. If it can hit planeswalkers, then I be all for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Liliana of the Veil - I don't see how in cube you can "liliana someone out" anymore. The edict isn't that good given the speed of the format + haste, tokens etc. The amount of card advantage + draw 7 has made the discard too even. Discard has been pretty bad, even in reanimator decks - I find if I'm using her as a discard outlet, its a easy 2 for 1 in my opponent's favor as she will prob be attacked down without something like Tarmogoyf blocking.
Sword of Body and Mind - Mill 10 seems to be too much of an upside given the graveyard synergies. I don't really understand how this is good
Acidic Slime - This just seems way too slow. If it can hit planeswalkers, then I be all for it.
Liliana is still great for us. The edict comes early enough that it almost always kills the relevant creature. In fact I really like that it is one of the few maindeckable edicts, making the first game against reanimator or cheat decks much closer. When you have a Liliana out, it discourages your opponent to play large creatures if they have none out - somewhat of a soft lock. The usual play pattern is to lay down Liliana as soon as possible and edict to take out their likely only blocker, then repeatedly discarding until a new edict is warranted. The discard is very often not symmetrical, as you are emptying your hand much more quickly than your opponent. Against a deck that is vastly faster than me, I'd side Lili out.
Sword - It is still winning the game in two hits way more often than it helps your opponent. Getting a token is a big part of the power level though. It bolster offense and defense at the same time and it gives more bodies to equip in the face of spot removals. I think it is the second best sword.
Slime - We have thought about cutting it too. Slime is one of the few ways to kill lands what are generally playable. If you ramp, it is not unreasonable to cast it on turn three, at which point the Stone Rain is powerful. It is a synergistic card, working well with Recurring Nightmare, blink and it is easy to tutor, being a green creature. All that, and it has a solid floor, basically always being a 2-for-1 as you will always have a land to kill and the body has deathtouch.
Green five drops have gotten very good, and I believe Slime is of the weaker ones we still play.
Agree with Metamind about LotV and SoB&M (although I rank it as Sword #4). I'd consider LotV easily a top 10 Black card.
I like Acidic Slime a lot. There is always a target for it because it can hit basics. It's synergies with Recruiters, Reveillark, Nightmare, etc. just make it a versatile card. The body is rarely irrelevant either because of the deathtouch.
Acidic Slime:
I might give Acidic Slime a second shot - the reason why I cut it is because we have 4 Reclamation Sage variants + Avalanche Rider + RiftWing Cloudscape which all feel stronger.
Sword of Body and Mind:
I never thought it it that way - hit twice, and the opponent likely milled themselves out.
Liliana of the Veil:
I guess I've been less and less impressed by her recently - She's been ticking down in both Modern and Legacy a lot recently. She was the 2nd best planeswalker after Jace 3 years ago, but has fallen really quickly to something like #8 or #9 in both eternal formats + cube.
In terms of the edict - I could see that - it might be the only playable edict in cube right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I will say, when I first joined this community, I felt alienated because my cube philosophy was quite different from everyone else here. I do feel the group's mentality has softened a lot, and that's a good thing. There are so many cubable cards now, and so many ways to build a great cube.
And to those still trying to build the optimal cube, godspeed to you. I spent the last several years cubing at low power, so I can't really weigh in. But I would say if those cards seem weak, cut them. You can re-add them later, and it gives you room to test.
I will say, when I first joined this community, I felt alienated because my cube philosophy was quite different from everyone else here. I do feel the group's mentality has softened a lot, and that's a good thing. There are so many cubable cards now, and so many ways to build a great cube.
And to those still trying to build the optimal cube, godspeed to you. I spent the last several years cubing at low power, so I can't really weigh in. But I would say if those cards seem weak, cut them. You can re-add them later, and it gives you room to test.
Cubes are for you and your community - if you like it its good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
We’re higher on Sword of Body and Mind than many Cubers seem to be (or at least judging by streamer commentary when I watch Cube streams). We find the green protection to be quite good for pushing through a trigger, and getting a 2/2 plays perfectly with the sword inevitability. I think the time for Sword of Light and Shadow has passed though. It takes too much setup, and the lifegain half of the effect is a bit of a throwaway.
Liliana of the Veil is a top black pick in our Cube.
Acidic Slime is a bit clunky, but we still like it for the synergies. It’s a highly competitive slot, so I’m not surprised when I don’t see it in some lists, but it’s a great synergy card with the green creature tutor engines and works well with some black and white cards.
I like SoLaS the second best of all the swords because those are the best protections to have. Also, the Raise Dead trigger happening even once can be enough to be really swingy.
For me there are a few cube classics that just don't see much play in my list. At 360 where its hard to justify keeping cards that don't see play I consider that "low performance". even though these cards are powerful and do make big plays now and then it's getting harder to keep them in.
For me there are a few cube classics that just don't see much play in my list. At 360 where its hard to justify keeping cards that don't see play I consider that "low performance". even though these cards are powerful and do make big plays now and then it's getting harder to keep them in.
Rishadan Port isn't doing that great - I will agree with that. Its really not an exciting card these cards. The only thing going for this card is my aggro section is limited to only mono white (which is under drafted in my play group anyways). Rishadan port wheeling signals that white aggro is open.
I don't see what the problem with Armageddon, its insane in aggressive strategies. I've heard arguments that its not as good because of the artifact fast mana the opponent might play, but I personally an affinity for all these Reclamation Sage and I play almost all the possible variants in my cube. (not the red one because I have a lot of artifact hate already in that color). I value them very highly in any creature based deck - aggro or combo.
Its pretty much a 4 mana win the game in any aggressive deck.
Show and Tell is interesting - I do admit is the worst fatty cheat enabler. But what I do like right now is it could be played in Storm decks to power out Bolas Citidal, Thousand-Year Storm etc.
Sneak Attack is almost never going to come out of my cube. It is insane, goes infinite with Palinchron, insane with Eldrazi Titans. This is absolutely devastasting.
Reveillark is another very strong enabler in Recurring Nightmare, Pod decks. This is almost never coming out of my cube.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think with armageddon its just that aggro decks tend to be more red/black alligned than white in my cube so it doesn't see a ton of play. On a power level it is definitely there so I am keeping it in the list despite the low main deck percentage.
I don't have as high a density of sneak/show targets in my cube which I think hurts both of those cards as well. The only Eldrazi I run is emrakul, the promised end and my other top end targets are griselbrand, sundering titan, etc. So I think this is limiting the maindeckability of these cards in my list.
Reveillark was my number one most disappointing cube card. I had it in my cube for years and it saw basically zero play. White decks in my cube tend to either be balls-to-the-wall aggro decks that don't want to durdle with Reveillark or hard control decks that don't have enough targets for it.
Gonna get flack for this one but Balance has been disappointing for me. Yes, when Balance is good its REALLY good but it suffers from a similar problem to Reveillark in that it fits in a narrow range of decks and situations. Aggro decks don't want to wipe their board and control decks don't want to discard their hand. And in an unpowered cube its too hard to turbo out ways to break the symmetry. I assume its much better in powered cubes; I'm probably going to cut it from my unpowered cube soon.
Reveillark was my number one most disappointing cube card. I had it in my cube for years and it saw basically zero play. White decks in my cube tend to either be balls-to-the-wall aggro decks that don't want to durdle with Reveillark or hard control decks that don't have enough targets for it.
Gonna get flack for this one but Balance has been disappointing for me. Yes, when Balance is good its REALLY good but it suffers from a similar problem to Reveillark in that it fits in a narrow range of decks and situations. Aggro decks don't want to wipe their board and control decks don't want to discard their hand. And in an unpowered cube its too hard to turbo out ways to break the symmetry. I assume its much better in powered cubes; I'm probably going to cut it from my unpowered cube soon.
For this reason, I don;t like the idea of keeping cubes small - the decks are too streamlined. I don't like cutting so many unique cards because they aren't hyperstreamed to the color's identity. Reveillark does some really amazing things with the pod/ recurring deck .. but i could really see how its too slow in smaller cubes.
For Balance, I think you need to think of these 3 situations:
- Control decks, I was facing an aggressive/ramp deck and they opened on the play with a 1-2 creature, I would any day balance to trade 2 cards in hand + balance for their two creatures. I think its hyper important to have the option to do this. If I was a control deck, I be much more willing to keep a very slow hand that has balance in it. It makes your turn 3-4 planeswalkers absolutely devastating. Similarly, if I could "smallpox" away so much resource, the control player will generally win the late game.
- Reanimator Decks - I know reanimator doesn't like to go into white, but Balance is so perfect for that deck. You can board wipe (you likely don't have creatures) and its your discard outlet.
- Its a great setup in artifact decks. They go into 4 colors anyways (minus green)
- This is the most underappreciated mode of balance - Suppose you're facing against a non-blue opponent, you can mulligan down to 4-5 for Balance/ Subset of 2 cards and you're very likely to hit it based on the new mulligan rule. If you open with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Channel, Mishra's Workshop, great - your deck is built around it and you're so far ahead. If you don't hit it, you can cast balance turn 2 to make the game more "balanced" by forcing your opponent to discard down to parity. (Its also very good at recovering from mulligans).
I would never cut balance from my cube.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I run 2 swords and Body and Mind is one of them. If I had to run only one it would be fire and ice, but I think Body and Mind is the second best. Sinew and steel is better when it's good, but there are games where it has legit 0 targets.
Acidic slime is so versatile and so easy to get down turn 4 or earlier in green decks I would never cut it. It's just so often a 2-for-1 and there's so many value plays with is especially in black green (it's one of my FAVORITE recurring nightmare deck inclusions). Yeah, it's more expensive than all the other rec sage variants, but it blocks so much better and being able to hit a necessary fixing land or utility land is huge. I think I'd run rec sage over it, but if I was only running 2 slime would be the second.
I cut land tax and revilark as they were just not competitive in my cube anymore.
I cut show and tell forever ago because it was just too symmetrical in cube - too many decks with o-ring type removal or that also had big creatures and got first swing.
Balance is good in a very narrow band of decks, but in those decks it's absolutely backbreaking, so I leave it in for those amazing plays. I wouldn't think someone was crazy for cutting it.
I can't imagine ever cutting fireblast. After literal bolt variants and vortex, fireblast is the spell I'm most looking for in my mono-R and Rx aggro decks. It's so much reach.
Sneak attack is still great, but you need a critical mass of other big fatty strats to make it worth it - we run reanimator, eureka, channel, super ramp, and natural order, so there's a lot of overlap.
I think with armageddon its just that aggro decks tend to be more red/black alligned than white in my cube so it doesn't see a ton of play. On a power level it is definitely there so I am keeping it in the list despite the low main deck percentage.
I don't have as high a density of sneak/show targets in my cube which I think hurts both of those cards as well. The only Eldrazi I run is emrakul, the promised end and my other top end targets are griselbrand, sundering titan, etc. So I think this is limiting the maindeckability of these cards in my list.
I personally don't know if judging by main deck percentage is the best way to go. There are several reasons from my game play experience that a card might see less maindeck play:
- If I see a card that is a rarely seen effect - I.e. Gaea's Cradle, SkullClamp, Crucible of Worlds, I would pick it Pick 1, Pack 1/2 - The other cards are pretty replaceable, I might get lucky and see both Loam + Strip Mine etc.
- There are cards that are build arounds and not intended to be played as frequently. There is almost no green deck that will not play Birds of Paradise, but cards like Griselbrand require a build around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
For me there are a few cube classics that just don't see much play in my list. At 360 where its hard to justify keeping cards that don't see play I consider that "low performance". even though these cards are powerful and do make big plays now and then it's getting harder to keep them in.
Rishadan Port also underperformed for us for some time.
We cut Armageddon and Ravages for being too win-more, I am happy about this decision. I remember the times where you could go one drop, two drop, three drop, and Armageddon to a win, but these days are long gone. It is much harder to have a significant advantage by turn four. If the game didn't go significantly in your favor, then almost any other card is preferable. Plus,
Reveillark we cut ages ago, it is narrow and slow. I don't think the power level is high enough to justify its shortcomings.
At 720, I play the cheat effects you have listed to good effect.
Gonna get flack for this one but Balance has been disappointing for me. Yes, when Balance is good its REALLY good but it suffers from a similar problem to Reveillark in that it fits in a narrow range of decks and situations. Aggro decks don't want to wipe their board and control decks don't want to discard their hand. And in an unpowered cube its too hard to turbo out ways to break the symmetry. I assume its much better in powered cubes; I'm probably going to cut it from my unpowered cube soon.
Balance is very powerful but has a few drawbacks. One, it is a build-around; it is very likely that no one will play it if it was opened pack three. Two, it is legitimately a hard card to play correctly even in the "right" deck. I can see playgroups where it would not be a good fit.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I jam Balance into any control deck. There are lots of situations where at least two of the modes will be advantageous. It's great with any planeswalker, but especially with Wrenn & Six in a Loam/Cruicble shell.
In reading this thread, it seems a lot of the cards being discussed are underperforming not because of the card itself but because the cube doesn't support the archetype(s) the card is meant for. If you don't support white aggro, of course Armageddon won't be good for you. If you don't support a bunch of fatty cheating decks, Sneak Attack and Show & Tell won't work out too well.
Many of the cards discussed here are among my favorites in the cube and nowhere near my chopping block.
That is probably a better idea - I love to hear opinions from people who love Acidic Slime and how they made it work.
Probably. Idk. I like constructive criticisms - I've learned alot on SCD forums about card interactions/ combos etc. I guess someone people that cubed with their cards for 10+ years are reluctant to make cuts.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
If you think those interactions, archetypes, and combos make the cube less powerful and less competitive, you're mistaken. The decks people create from my current cube configuration are just as powerful (if not more powerful) as the decks that were just focussed on using the best generic goodstuff cards like before. Combos and archetypes are competitive. It's just different than relying on the intrinsic powerlevel of your individual cards to shoulder the weight for you. Instead of using unfair cards to win in fair ways, you use combinations of fair cards to win in unfair ways. But I assure you, the decks are plenty powerful and competitive, and they can all win their fair share of drafts against the decks/cards that appear to be more conventionally powerful in cube.
The point isn't more competitive vs less competitive. It's that there are different ways for the cube to be competitive. Which is the point. If card X is underperforming for one person, it might not be because it's time has passed. It could be because the types of decks your cube configuration produces aren't conducive for those cards to be optimal. It could be that a particular playgroup doesn't like to draft the decks that certain cards are ideal in. But instead of exploring those intricacies and getting to the root of why cards underperform for one group and overperform for another, "sacred cow" threads assume their cube configuration is the only correct way to be competitive, and that their results are somehow more relevant than everyone elses are.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is what rubs people the wrong way. You don't say these cards don't work any more in our group, no you say 'these cards are subpar' and cube owners that still run these only do it because they are conservative, nostaligic. Have some fate, other cube owners are not dumb. They might actually still like these cards because they are good cards (for their environment)! People with different oppinions on cards are not always wrong.
Sure I get your drift. Power creep is a thing and cards do get pushed out over time because other more powerfull cards are printed. And we all are guilty of holding on to certain cards a bit too long at times. But cubes are so different and power level has evolved to a level where 'it depends on the enviroment' is not a way to kill discussions any more, but is just true a lot of times.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Pretty much this, ya. Hicham did a much better job of illustrating the issues than I did with my (albeit unintended) "holier than thou" dumbassery.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I guess this is my problem then not the rest of the cube community's problem - I've kept way too many underperformers inside my cube because of a synergy/ archetype I envisioned. Maybe this is more my problem than everyone else's in the community.
I've been incredibly reluctant to cut subpar cards. Those 4 cards I've listed are all cards that have under performed for us but I never got around to cutting. In fact, my cube has grown to 1000+ cards because of the massive power creep and my reluctance to cut cards that aren't good. The worst example is my green 4 drop section:
Nightpack Ambusher, Oracle of Mul Daya, Polukranos, Questing Beast, Vengevine, Magus of the Order, Path of Discovery, Shifting Ceratops, Garruk Relentless, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Unleashed, Master of the Wild Hunt, Bramble Soverign ..
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Do we want to discuss the cards presented in the OP in this thread?
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Liliana of the Veil - I don't see how in cube you can "liliana someone out" anymore. The edict isn't that good given the speed of the format + haste, tokens etc. The amount of card advantage + draw 7 has made the discard too even. Discard has been pretty bad, even in reanimator decks - I find if I'm using her as a discard outlet, its a easy 2 for 1 in my opponent's favor as she will prob be attacked down without something like Tarmogoyf blocking.
Sword of Body and Mind - Mill 10 seems to be too much of an upside given the graveyard synergies. I don't really understand how this is good
Acidic Slime - This just seems way too slow. If it can hit planeswalkers, then I be all for it.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Liliana is still great for us. The edict comes early enough that it almost always kills the relevant creature. In fact I really like that it is one of the few maindeckable edicts, making the first game against reanimator or cheat decks much closer. When you have a Liliana out, it discourages your opponent to play large creatures if they have none out - somewhat of a soft lock. The usual play pattern is to lay down Liliana as soon as possible and edict to take out their likely only blocker, then repeatedly discarding until a new edict is warranted. The discard is very often not symmetrical, as you are emptying your hand much more quickly than your opponent. Against a deck that is vastly faster than me, I'd side Lili out.
Sword - It is still winning the game in two hits way more often than it helps your opponent. Getting a token is a big part of the power level though. It bolster offense and defense at the same time and it gives more bodies to equip in the face of spot removals. I think it is the second best sword.
Slime - We have thought about cutting it too. Slime is one of the few ways to kill lands what are generally playable. If you ramp, it is not unreasonable to cast it on turn three, at which point the Stone Rain is powerful. It is a synergistic card, working well with Recurring Nightmare, blink and it is easy to tutor, being a green creature. All that, and it has a solid floor, basically always being a 2-for-1 as you will always have a land to kill and the body has deathtouch.
Green five drops have gotten very good, and I believe Slime is of the weaker ones we still play.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
I like Acidic Slime a lot. There is always a target for it because it can hit basics. It's synergies with Recruiters, Reveillark, Nightmare, etc. just make it a versatile card. The body is rarely irrelevant either because of the deathtouch.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Acidic Slime:
I might give Acidic Slime a second shot - the reason why I cut it is because we have 4 Reclamation Sage variants + Avalanche Rider + RiftWing Cloudscape which all feel stronger.
Sword of Body and Mind:
I never thought it it that way - hit twice, and the opponent likely milled themselves out.
Liliana of the Veil:
I guess I've been less and less impressed by her recently - She's been ticking down in both Modern and Legacy a lot recently. She was the 2nd best planeswalker after Jace 3 years ago, but has fallen really quickly to something like #8 or #9 in both eternal formats + cube.
In terms of the edict - I could see that - it might be the only playable edict in cube right now.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
And to those still trying to build the optimal cube, godspeed to you. I spent the last several years cubing at low power, so I can't really weigh in. But I would say if those cards seem weak, cut them. You can re-add them later, and it gives you room to test.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Cubes are for you and your community - if you like it its good.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Liliana of the Veil is a top black pick in our Cube.
Acidic Slime is a bit clunky, but we still like it for the synergies. It’s a highly competitive slot, so I’m not surprised when I don’t see it in some lists, but it’s a great synergy card with the green creature tutor engines and works well with some black and white cards.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
rishadan port
armageddon
show and tell
sneak attack
reveillark
Rishadan Port isn't doing that great - I will agree with that. Its really not an exciting card these cards. The only thing going for this card is my aggro section is limited to only mono white (which is under drafted in my play group anyways). Rishadan port wheeling signals that white aggro is open.
I don't see what the problem with Armageddon, its insane in aggressive strategies. I've heard arguments that its not as good because of the artifact fast mana the opponent might play, but I personally an affinity for all these Reclamation Sage and I play almost all the possible variants in my cube. (not the red one because I have a lot of artifact hate already in that color). I value them very highly in any creature based deck - aggro or combo.
Its pretty much a 4 mana win the game in any aggressive deck.
Show and Tell is interesting - I do admit is the worst fatty cheat enabler. But what I do like right now is it could be played in Storm decks to power out Bolas Citidal, Thousand-Year Storm etc.
Sneak Attack is almost never going to come out of my cube. It is insane, goes infinite with Palinchron, insane with Eldrazi Titans. This is absolutely devastasting.
Reveillark is another very strong enabler in Recurring Nightmare, Pod decks. This is almost never coming out of my cube.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I don't have as high a density of sneak/show targets in my cube which I think hurts both of those cards as well. The only Eldrazi I run is emrakul, the promised end and my other top end targets are griselbrand, sundering titan, etc. So I think this is limiting the maindeckability of these cards in my list.
Gonna get flack for this one but Balance has been disappointing for me. Yes, when Balance is good its REALLY good but it suffers from a similar problem to Reveillark in that it fits in a narrow range of decks and situations. Aggro decks don't want to wipe their board and control decks don't want to discard their hand. And in an unpowered cube its too hard to turbo out ways to break the symmetry. I assume its much better in powered cubes; I'm probably going to cut it from my unpowered cube soon.
For this reason, I don;t like the idea of keeping cubes small - the decks are too streamlined. I don't like cutting so many unique cards because they aren't hyperstreamed to the color's identity. Reveillark does some really amazing things with the pod/ recurring deck .. but i could really see how its too slow in smaller cubes.
For Balance, I think you need to think of these 3 situations:
- Control decks, I was facing an aggressive/ramp deck and they opened on the play with a 1-2 creature, I would any day balance to trade 2 cards in hand + balance for their two creatures. I think its hyper important to have the option to do this. If I was a control deck, I be much more willing to keep a very slow hand that has balance in it. It makes your turn 3-4 planeswalkers absolutely devastating. Similarly, if I could "smallpox" away so much resource, the control player will generally win the late game.
- Reanimator Decks - I know reanimator doesn't like to go into white, but Balance is so perfect for that deck. You can board wipe (you likely don't have creatures) and its your discard outlet.
- Its a great setup in artifact decks. They go into 4 colors anyways (minus green)
- This is the most underappreciated mode of balance - Suppose you're facing against a non-blue opponent, you can mulligan down to 4-5 for Balance/ Subset of 2 cards and you're very likely to hit it based on the new mulligan rule. If you open with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Channel, Mishra's Workshop, great - your deck is built around it and you're so far ahead. If you don't hit it, you can cast balance turn 2 to make the game more "balanced" by forcing your opponent to discard down to parity. (Its also very good at recovering from mulligans).
I would never cut balance from my cube.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Acidic slime is so versatile and so easy to get down turn 4 or earlier in green decks I would never cut it. It's just so often a 2-for-1 and there's so many value plays with is especially in black green (it's one of my FAVORITE recurring nightmare deck inclusions). Yeah, it's more expensive than all the other rec sage variants, but it blocks so much better and being able to hit a necessary fixing land or utility land is huge. I think I'd run rec sage over it, but if I was only running 2 slime would be the second.
I cut land tax and revilark as they were just not competitive in my cube anymore.
I cut show and tell forever ago because it was just too symmetrical in cube - too many decks with o-ring type removal or that also had big creatures and got first swing.
Balance is good in a very narrow band of decks, but in those decks it's absolutely backbreaking, so I leave it in for those amazing plays. I wouldn't think someone was crazy for cutting it.
I can't imagine ever cutting fireblast. After literal bolt variants and vortex, fireblast is the spell I'm most looking for in my mono-R and Rx aggro decks. It's so much reach.
Sneak attack is still great, but you need a critical mass of other big fatty strats to make it worth it - we run reanimator, eureka, channel, super ramp, and natural order, so there's a lot of overlap.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I personally don't know if judging by main deck percentage is the best way to go. There are several reasons from my game play experience that a card might see less maindeck play:
- If I see a card that is a rarely seen effect - I.e. Gaea's Cradle, SkullClamp, Crucible of Worlds, I would pick it Pick 1, Pack 1/2 - The other cards are pretty replaceable, I might get lucky and see both Loam + Strip Mine etc.
- There are cards that are build arounds and not intended to be played as frequently. There is almost no green deck that will not play Birds of Paradise, but cards like Griselbrand require a build around.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Rishadan Port also underperformed for us for some time.
We cut Armageddon and Ravages for being too win-more, I am happy about this decision. I remember the times where you could go one drop, two drop, three drop, and Armageddon to a win, but these days are long gone. It is much harder to have a significant advantage by turn four. If the game didn't go significantly in your favor, then almost any other card is preferable. Plus,
Reveillark we cut ages ago, it is narrow and slow. I don't think the power level is high enough to justify its shortcomings.
At 720, I play the cheat effects you have listed to good effect.
Balance is very powerful but has a few drawbacks. One, it is a build-around; it is very likely that no one will play it if it was opened pack three. Two, it is legitimately a hard card to play correctly even in the "right" deck. I can see playgroups where it would not be a good fit.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Its a monster in Birthing Pod, Recurring Nightmare decks ...
Especially with cards like:
Vraska, Golgari Queen
SmokeStack
Rankle, Master of Pranks
Braids, Cabal Minion
The Abyss
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
In reading this thread, it seems a lot of the cards being discussed are underperforming not because of the card itself but because the cube doesn't support the archetype(s) the card is meant for. If you don't support white aggro, of course Armageddon won't be good for you. If you don't support a bunch of fatty cheating decks, Sneak Attack and Show & Tell won't work out too well.
Many of the cards discussed here are among my favorites in the cube and nowhere near my chopping block.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963