I currently own a 360 card unpowered cube which I want to upgrade to 450 cards soonish. Having 90 slots to fill, I thought it would be a fun idea to try out at least one new archetype. And since my cube currently lacks any sort of archetypes winning outside of combat, I would love to inlcude a more alternative archetype.
My first thought was to include a storm archetype similar to the one in the MTGO vintage cube. But since my cube is in paper and I don't have an infinite amount of money, I will not be able to afford cards like Time Spiral, Yawgmoth's Will, Wheel of Fortune or Lion's Eye Diamond.
Has anyone any experience with alternative ways to build a storm archetype?
And maybe it doesn't have to be storm. Is mill viable in cube? Or are there other fun archetypes with alternate win cons?
Additionally, I included Dark Depths along with the tools necessary to make that work (see number 34. in the above link), which actually produces a fairly nice Abzan toolbox deck together with the Persist combo now and then.
A friend of mine established a Simic extra turns archetype in his cube with the basis being nonland permanent ramp together with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy and extra turn spells, most notably Nexus of Fate.
The same friend also ran Approach of the Second Sun for some time and made it work, although traditional Control decks, where this card is best, don't really need it as an additional tool.
1. I ran into this mistake 2-3 years ago when adding archetypes was over supporting an archetype by adding every aristocrats/ storm/ reanimator card that comes to mind.
You'll be pleasantly surprised at how little support a lot of archetypes actually need and how much overlap there is usually in the cube already to support the archetype.
I've found in a 720 card cube, you only need 10 Aristocrats (roughly 6 for a 450 cube) for an aristocrats deck to function and whats amazing is half of these enablers are probably already in your cube in the form of SkullClamp, Daretti, Yawgmoth etc.
2. Legacy storm is slightly weaker - in particular it lacks the strong mana acceleration/ Wheels found in legacy, but these cards are still legal in legacy:
Its less likely to see an all-in storm deck - you'll prob need to build it as a combo-control deck where it naturally ramp into its engine pieces and uses counter spells can trips to assemble a win (you lack the tutors and density of fast mana for wins).
With sweepers, counter spells and ramp you can build up to turn 5-6 such that you have 2-3 pieces of fast mana in hand, play pay offs, then go off.
There are some good mana in Legacy (and budget) - Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song, High Tide, Frantic Search, Goblin Electromancer, Nightscape Familiar, Baral Chief of Compliance, Turnabout, Vessel of Volatility
3. Mill is competitive. But the problem with the archetype are the cards are heavily build (highly contested color) and its very parasitic.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Additionally, I included Dark Depths along with the tools necessary to make that work (see number 34. in the above link), which actually produces a fairly nice Abzan toolbox deck together with the Persist combo now and then.
A friend of mine established a Simic extra turns archetype in his cube with the basis being nonland permanent ramp together with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy and extra turn spells, most notably Nexus of Fate.
The same friend also ran Approach of the Second Sun for some time and made it work, although traditional Control decks, where this card is best, don't really need it as an additional tool.
I am currently thinking about including persist combos to my cube. The problem is that I just don't run any repeatable sacrifice outlets (yet). What kind of outlets would you include here? Maybe Viscera Seer, Carrion Feeder or Goblin Bombardement?
Dark Depths along with all synergies is already in.
I have to admit Nexus of Fate and Approach of the Second Sun feel kind of redundant and unfun to me, though I never played with them so maybe I'm a little off there.
Legacy storm is slightly weaker - in particular it lacks the strong mana acceleration/ Wheels found in legacy, but these cards are still legal in legacy:
Its less likely to see an all-in storm deck - you'll prob need to build it as a combo-control deck where it naturally ramp into its engine pieces and uses counter spells can trips to assemble a win (you lack the tutors and density of fast mana for wins).
With sweepers, counter spells and ramp you can build up to turn 5-6 such that you have 2-3 pieces of fast mana in hand, play pay offs, then go off.
There are some good mana in Legacy (and budget) - Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song, High Tide, Frantic Search, Goblin Electromancer, Nightscape Familiar, Baral Chief of Compliance, Turnabout, Vessel of Volatility
I extended your list of budget(ish) cards that seem useful for me if I want to include a storm archetype. Which of these cards would you include and which not? Also, am I missing anything?
Unfortunately, storm is actually one of the "worst" decks in Vintage Cube - its heavily played for its fun factor.
When you're going budget (or non proxy) you are cutting a lot of good fast mana - Lotus, Moxen, Crypt, Sol Ring (Yes its cheap, but I wouldn't play this in an environment with the others), Vault, Monolith, LED, Mana Drain etc.
You're also cutting some strong engines - Yawg Will, Treachery, Time Spiral, Wheel, Time Twister, Palinchron etc.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
If you want a fairly cheap ($$$ wise) to enable combo support, I would suggest persist combo. The deck is fun to try to draft and fun to play. Most of the tools needed for the archetype are cheaper commons/uncommons with just a few decent rare supporters.
There's also Kiki/Twin combo which really only requires the addition of a few cards to make it viable.
I run several combo oriented archetypes in my 720 (actually 760) cube. This is essentially and add-on for our "normal" powered 565 list. Here's what I have for each.
Humans
Champion of the Parrish
Thalia's Lieutenant
Mayor of Avabruck
These are really the only specific "support" cards I run for this archetype. Humans tend to be a pretty dominant creature type in general, but these cards in specific help to provide some support for human tribal. Mayor is actually a pretty decent card in its own right outside of the archetype, especially if you support any sort of green aggro strategies.
Persist
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
Vizier of Remedies
Carrion Feeder
Viscera Seer
Putrid Goblin
Bloodthrone Vampire
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Renata, Called to the Hunt
Murderous Redcap
Good-Fortune Unicorn
Kitchen Finks
Cruel Celebrant
Altar of Dementia
Ashnod's Altar
Blasting Station
I'm also running Goblin Bombardment and Falkenrath Aristocrat, both of which are just generally good cards, but also help dip into red for the archetype as well. Again, most of these cards are affordable commons and uncommons and make for a really fun to play archetype.
Heliod Life Gain
Heliod, Sun-Crowned
Archangel of Thune
Spike Feeder
I enjoy combos like this because they require so few cards and can slot into other more generic decks. GW Midrange is a solid archetype in and of itself, but you throw these cards in and suddenly you have an instant win combo that's really fun and exciting.
Blink
Ephemerate
Thassa, Deep-Dwelling
Soulherder
This is another one that you can support on very few cards. Soulherder alone is an excellent value creature, but the other two kind of allow you to support an entire archetype housed inside an Azorius Tempo shell with cards you're likely already running.
Again, another entire archetype that can be built around just a few cards. Restoration Angel also allows you to dip into white for this deck and is probably a card you're already running.
Mindslaver
Academy Ruins
Mindslaver
This is a great two card combo that slots well into pretty much any blue based control deck and makes for a fun (depending on which side of the table you're on) combo finisher.
Storm
Spellseeker
Brain Freeze
Frantic Search
Turnabout
Gitaxian Probe
Echo of Eons
Mind's Desire
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony
Dark Petition
Desperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Grapeshot
Empty the Warrens
Past in Flames
Underworld Breach
Manamorphose
Goblin Electromancer
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
This one is a bit more invasive and parasitic, IMO. It can be fun, but it requires a lot of cards to make it work. I don't believe you need everything listed here, though. Several storm support cards are your blue one and two mana cantrips that you're likely already running. Something like Night's Whisper is nice too. Red burn spells also help. But several of the really necessary support cards can be expensive, so if you're on a budget, I'd recommend trying to look at other fun combo support instead.
My favorite combo support cards are those that can slot into already decent deck archetypes and add just a little spice to them. I also, again, recommend persist for being both fun and incredibly budget friendly for adding an archetype to a cube.
I currently own a 360 card unpowered cube which I want to upgrade to 450 cards soonish. Having 90 slots to fill, I thought it would be a fun idea to try out at least one new archetype. And since my cube currently lacks any sort of archetypes winning outside of combat, I would love to inlcude a more alternative archetype.
Here is my cube list.
My first thought was to include a storm archetype similar to the one in the MTGO vintage cube. But since my cube is in paper and I don't have an infinite amount of money, I will not be able to afford cards like Time Spiral, Yawgmoth's Will, Wheel of Fortune or Lion's Eye Diamond.
Has anyone any experience with alternative ways to build a storm archetype?
And maybe it doesn't have to be storm. Is mill viable in cube? Or are there other fun archetypes with alternate win cons?
Thanks!
See number 15. Melira Combo
Additionally, I included Dark Depths along with the tools necessary to make that work (see number 34. in the above link), which actually produces a fairly nice Abzan toolbox deck together with the Persist combo now and then.
A friend of mine established a Simic extra turns archetype in his cube with the basis being nonland permanent ramp together with Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy and extra turn spells, most notably Nexus of Fate.
The same friend also ran Approach of the Second Sun for some time and made it work, although traditional Control decks, where this card is best, don't really need it as an additional tool.
You'll be pleasantly surprised at how little support a lot of archetypes actually need and how much overlap there is usually in the cube already to support the archetype.
I've found in a 720 card cube, you only need 10 Aristocrats (roughly 6 for a 450 cube) for an aristocrats deck to function and whats amazing is half of these enablers are probably already in your cube in the form of SkullClamp, Daretti, Yawgmoth etc.
2. Legacy storm is slightly weaker - in particular it lacks the strong mana acceleration/ Wheels found in legacy, but these cards are still legal in legacy:
Engines - Bolas Citadel, Shark Typhoon, Mizzix Mastery, Thousand-Year Storm.
Its less likely to see an all-in storm deck - you'll prob need to build it as a combo-control deck where it naturally ramp into its engine pieces and uses counter spells can trips to assemble a win (you lack the tutors and density of fast mana for wins).
With sweepers, counter spells and ramp you can build up to turn 5-6 such that you have 2-3 pieces of fast mana in hand, play pay offs, then go off.
There are some good mana in Legacy (and budget) - Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song, High Tide, Frantic Search, Goblin Electromancer, Nightscape Familiar, Baral Chief of Compliance, Turnabout, Vessel of Volatility
3. Mill is competitive. But the problem with the archetype are the cards are heavily build (highly contested color) and its very parasitic.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I am currently thinking about including persist combos to my cube. The problem is that I just don't run any repeatable sacrifice outlets (yet). What kind of outlets would you include here? Maybe Viscera Seer, Carrion Feeder or Goblin Bombardement?
Dark Depths along with all synergies is already in.
I have to admit Nexus of Fate and Approach of the Second Sun feel kind of redundant and unfun to me, though I never played with them so maybe I'm a little off there.
I extended your list of budget(ish) cards that seem useful for me if I want to include a storm archetype. Which of these cards would you include and which not? Also, am I missing anything?
Rituals:
Cabal Ritual
Desperate Ritual
Lotus Petal
Manamorphose
Pyretic Ritual
Seething Song
Rite of Flame
Engines:
Thousand-Year Storm
Underworld Breach
Mizzix's Mastery
Past in Flames (maybe with Gifts Ungiven?)
Bolas's Citadel (am running Tinker aswell)
Bonus Round
Draw-sevens:
Echo of Eons
Commit // Memory
Dudes that make stuff cheaper:
Goblin Anarchomancer
Goblin Electromancer
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Nightscape Familiar
Birgi, God of Storytelling
Mana Doublers:
High Tide
Heartbeat of Spring
Mana Flare
Things that untap lands:
Frantic Search (already in the cube)
Turnabout
Tutors:
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Dark Petition
Demonic Tutor
Storm payoffs:
Brain Freeze
Tendrils of Agony
Mind's Desire
Empty the Warrens
When you're going budget (or non proxy) you are cutting a lot of good fast mana - Lotus, Moxen, Crypt, Sol Ring (Yes its cheap, but I wouldn't play this in an environment with the others), Vault, Monolith, LED, Mana Drain etc.
You're also cutting some strong engines - Yawg Will, Treachery, Time Spiral, Wheel, Time Twister, Palinchron etc.
There are some other good cards (This is just off the top of my head - not recommending you should play all of them, but some suggestions):
- Coalition Relic
- Basalt Monolith
- Gush
- Lotus Bloom
- Chrome Mox
- Arcum's Astrolabe - definitely strong in a deck where you can go into 4 colors
- Fireblast - pretty good with Mind's Desire, Thousand Year, Shark Typhoon, fuels graveyard for Delve
- Treasure Cruise / Dig Through Time
- Dictate of Karametra
- Rain of Filth
- Vessel of Volatility / Generator Servant
- Merchant Scroll / Impulse - especially if you're relying on high tide
- Jeska's Will
- Shark Typhoon
- Culling the weak - especially if you run alot of mana bears/ Looters
- Serum visions / Sleight of hand
- Rise from the Tides - Not a storm card, but could serve as an excellent payoff if you don't want to go all-in
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
There's also Kiki/Twin combo which really only requires the addition of a few cards to make it viable.
I run several combo oriented archetypes in my 720 (actually 760) cube. This is essentially and add-on for our "normal" powered 565 list. Here's what I have for each.
Humans
Champion of the Parrish
Thalia's Lieutenant
Mayor of Avabruck
These are really the only specific "support" cards I run for this archetype. Humans tend to be a pretty dominant creature type in general, but these cards in specific help to provide some support for human tribal. Mayor is actually a pretty decent card in its own right outside of the archetype, especially if you support any sort of green aggro strategies.
Persist
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
Vizier of Remedies
Carrion Feeder
Viscera Seer
Putrid Goblin
Bloodthrone Vampire
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Renata, Called to the Hunt
Murderous Redcap
Good-Fortune Unicorn
Kitchen Finks
Cruel Celebrant
Altar of Dementia
Ashnod's Altar
Blasting Station
I'm also running Goblin Bombardment and Falkenrath Aristocrat, both of which are just generally good cards, but also help dip into red for the archetype as well. Again, most of these cards are affordable commons and uncommons and make for a really fun to play archetype.
Heliod Life Gain
Heliod, Sun-Crowned
Archangel of Thune
Spike Feeder
I enjoy combos like this because they require so few cards and can slot into other more generic decks. GW Midrange is a solid archetype in and of itself, but you throw these cards in and suddenly you have an instant win combo that's really fun and exciting.
Blink
Ephemerate
Thassa, Deep-Dwelling
Soulherder
This is another one that you can support on very few cards. Soulherder alone is an excellent value creature, but the other two kind of allow you to support an entire archetype housed inside an Azorius Tempo shell with cards you're likely already running.
Kiki/Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Pestermite
Kiki, Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
Zealous Conscripts
Splinter Twin
Again, another entire archetype that can be built around just a few cards. Restoration Angel also allows you to dip into white for this deck and is probably a card you're already running.
Mindslaver
Academy Ruins
Mindslaver
This is a great two card combo that slots well into pretty much any blue based control deck and makes for a fun (depending on which side of the table you're on) combo finisher.
Storm
Spellseeker
Brain Freeze
Frantic Search
Turnabout
Gitaxian Probe
Echo of Eons
Mind's Desire
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony
Dark Petition
Desperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Grapeshot
Empty the Warrens
Past in Flames
Underworld Breach
Manamorphose
Goblin Electromancer
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
This one is a bit more invasive and parasitic, IMO. It can be fun, but it requires a lot of cards to make it work. I don't believe you need everything listed here, though. Several storm support cards are your blue one and two mana cantrips that you're likely already running. Something like Night's Whisper is nice too. Red burn spells also help. But several of the really necessary support cards can be expensive, so if you're on a budget, I'd recommend trying to look at other fun combo support instead.
My favorite combo support cards are those that can slot into already decent deck archetypes and add just a little spice to them. I also, again, recommend persist for being both fun and incredibly budget friendly for adding an archetype to a cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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