I've been thinking about cutting Sun Titan for quite a while. And I intend on adding this over it as well. It's hard to think about how beneficial the ability is without testing it and I'm excited to find out!
I don't like this at all. A 6-cmc creature shouldn't be this double-edged. Even if built around, I don't think this is any better than most 5-cmc token generators or something like Captain of the Watch.
In a lot of scenarios, this card will be a win / lose more card. I'd much rather have something like Catastrophe that can either just seal the deal if I'm already winning or reset the board if I'm losing.
Me neither. It seems situational, a huge double-edged sword, pretty weak versus removal and it has a very narrow range of white decks that would actually play it effectively.
Sun Titan supports combos, archetypes, and it's more versatile and flexible, and does a much better job of guaranteeing value. Sun Titan has aged really well for us; it's far better now than it used to be, and I'm certainly not going to remove it for a card that will go into less decks and contribute to far less interesting lines of play.
I love Sun Titan. Such a cool, unique and yet really powerful card. No way I ever cut it.
This card Might be pretty solid. The obvious parallel for this card is Sunkeeper Tarim from HS, which was completely broken and the the best/second best card is HS standard for 2 whole years. The ability to make stats uniform is really easily breakable and in no way symmetrical, but the issue is that this isn't an etb, so I'm not really sure where I stand on this card.
This card is super cool, but I do see a major issue: if the opponent removes it, everything goes back to normal. That means they can really blow you out with an instant if they play it correctly. You can't always assume that their 3/3 will trade with yours.
I also agree that this is generally weaker than Sun Titan, but it's a fine card to test in its place if you don't feel the need of the Titan. This card is super cool, and always being the best creature on the field is an awesome ability, as is turning all your 1/1s into 3/3s in a deck built to exploit that.
This looks like another one right on the edge of cube playability. As a B-Lister, those are my bread and butter.
I don't see Sun Titan as an incredible six drop for cube, it is just the best of many subpar options including this one. This card is very swingy. In top-deck mode this is insane. 10 power over 3 bodies for 6cc. The blowout potential is too real though and this really needed some form of protection or maybe a line saying your opponent can't cast spells during combat....As is I prefer Linvala, the Preserver over this even.
Seems like a good finisher/overrun type card in a GW token deck, but other than that, I'm not interested. Possible sleeper.
I'm also not in love with sun titan, but a couple people in my playgroup who love it tend to smash me with it every time I debate of cutting it.
For whatever reason have never got it to work well for me, but have lost many a games to it.
Me neither. It seems situational, a huge double-edged sword, pretty weak versus removal and it has a very narrow range of white decks that would actually play it effectively.
Sun Titan supports combos, archetypes, and it's more versatile and flexible, and does a much better job of guaranteeing value. Sun Titan has aged really well for us; it's far better now than it used to be, and I'm certainly not going to remove it for a card that will go into less decks and contribute to far less interesting lines of play.
To be honest I almost like Captain of the Watch better. It's asymmetric and comes with three extra bodies instead of two, although it doesn't necessarily pump your non-soldiers and the main body is smaller.
Me neither. It seems situational, a huge double-edged sword, pretty weak versus removal and it has a very narrow range of white decks that would actually play it effectively.
Sun Titan supports combos, archetypes, and it's more versatile and flexible, and does a much better job of guaranteeing value. Sun Titan has aged really well for us; it's far better now than it used to be, and I'm certainly not going to remove it for a card that will go into less decks and contribute to far less interesting lines of play.
What combos and archetypes do Sun Titan support?
It combos with Fiend Hunter and any sacrifice outlet to get infinite triggers. And any permanent-based combo deck (like persist combo, for example) can use Sun Titan to resurrect both the sac outlets and the persist creatures if they die. And it plays well with Loam/land-based sacrifice decks, Stax shells, and blink decks that are full of cheap permanents for it to target. Also great in Wildfire decks since it both survives the effect and brings back lands.
While I’ve read and understand the criticism of this card on here and in other places of discussion, I nevertheless think this card is going to utterly fantastic for cubes of all sizes. Obviously this card is one that simple theorycraft will not suffice for, but this evokes a feel to me similar to that of Elesh Norn and Craterhoof when they were first previewed (early adopter on both). This should end games on the spot for decks built to abuse synergies, and it should simply stabilize the board for those without.
While I do enjoy Sun Titan gameplay, and think it’s still rock-solid in most cube sizes, my initial hot take is I would cube Archon over it if forced to pick only one.
I have no doubt that there will be both decks and snd situations where this Archon will be disgusting when it hits play. It's a savage curve-topper for token-centric builds and some go-wide strategies that can afford 6-drops. But, I think there are a lot more decks that can't effectively play this card, and unfortunately a lot of those decks are decks that can afford to play 4WW creatures. In a creature-light control deck, it arguably does more harm than good. Most white midrange decks are full of high-quality 4-5cc creatures that will actually get worse when the Archon resolves. And white aggro decks don't play 6cc creatures. Plus, most of white's combo and archetype shells don't want it either. So outside of token builds, where would I even play this card? Unless I already have board superiority with an army of smaller creatures than my opponent, this just feels like a poor man's Grave Titan. I don't think a 6cc creature that's only playable in one deck is really where I want to be, no matter how good it might be in that one singular deck.
All that being said, white only has one good 6cc creature anyways. So if you're in the mood for something different or you're looking for a 2nd one, this Archonn wins by default, lol. It will be utterly savage when you're wide on tokens or already ahead on board. It will also randomly find situations where you shrink your opponent's bombs into boltable beasts, which will be quite cute. I don't think the Archon is playable in many shells, but it'll likely shine in the ones that want it.
@KMAYER: I suppose Craterhoof's a pretty good analogy. Utterly game-ending in some board states but very mediocre in others. Since I don't like Craterhoof at all, I'm happy to skip on Archon. I think Archon is too likely to backfire and may actively work against you when staring down a good board or first strikers. I think Sun Titan is a fairly high end six drop, but the six slot isn't deep in White beyond it (and big Elspeth/Catastrophe in the non-creature world), so YMMV.
While I’ve read and understand the criticism of this card on here and in other places of discussion, I nevertheless think this card is going to utterly fantastic for cubes of all sizes. Obviously this card is one that simple theorycraft will not suffice for, but this evokes a feel to me similar to that of Elesh Norn and Craterhoof when they were first previewed (early adopter on both). This should end games on the spot for decks built to abuse synergies, and it should simply stabilize the board for those without.
Curious, what kind of decks would you foresee the archon going into?
Do you think it could perform in reanimator? Artifact ramp? UW midrange?
It does remind me of elesh norn a bit, but is better with dealing with tall threats than wide threats on the opposing side.
I’m confused at why many here are expecting such a bump from the opponents board. Sure, if your opponent has like 5+ tiny creatures and you are at a low lifetotal without a board presence, you’re dead. But this gives you two 3/3s and a 4/5 to block your opponents 3/3. If they kill this, their creatures are smaller again (and you have some tokens), and if they don’t, any attacks are AT BEST suiciding one creature and trading with 2.
I get the skepticism here, but I have really high hopes.
While I see some potential here, I am having trouble imagining it doing well in anything but a token deck (where it seems sick).
One thing that I don't love.. is compared to other cubable 6+ cmc threats, if your deck doesn't leverage an over-run type victory and they remove the archon at sorcery speed, you gained very little.
The value of two 1/1's + drawing out a removal spell is a considerably below par base for threats of that cost. That's not a worse case scenario comparison, but it is a fairly common case scenario analysis.
While I see some potential here, I am having trouble imagining it doing well in anything but a token deck (where it seems sick).
One thing that I don't love.. is compared to other cubable 6+ cmc threats, if your deck doesn't leverage an over-run type victory and they remove the archon at sorcery speed, you gained very little.
The value of two 1/1's + drawing out a removal spell is a considerably below par base for threats of that cost. That's not a worse case scenario comparison, but it is a fairly common case scenario analysis.
I agree with all of this, I think. I want to like the card because another competitive 6cc creature in white would be great, but this feels like it'll fall short outside of the one deck that it's good in.
We recently added this as part of a Humility Control package, and it's over-performing in limited testing (we don't have the Cube crew together because of COVID). It takes some deck synergies, but when your deck is built correctly this is usually a bomb for your board and a detriment for the opponent's.
Thoughts? This might replace Sun Titan for me.
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In a lot of scenarios, this card will be a win / lose more card. I'd much rather have something like Catastrophe that can either just seal the deal if I'm already winning or reset the board if I'm losing.
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Me neither. It seems situational, a huge double-edged sword, pretty weak versus removal and it has a very narrow range of white decks that would actually play it effectively.
Sun Titan supports combos, archetypes, and it's more versatile and flexible, and does a much better job of guaranteeing value. Sun Titan has aged really well for us; it's far better now than it used to be, and I'm certainly not going to remove it for a card that will go into less decks and contribute to far less interesting lines of play.
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This card Might be pretty solid. The obvious parallel for this card is Sunkeeper Tarim from HS, which was completely broken and the the best/second best card is HS standard for 2 whole years. The ability to make stats uniform is really easily breakable and in no way symmetrical, but the issue is that this isn't an etb, so I'm not really sure where I stand on this card.
I also agree that this is generally weaker than Sun Titan, but it's a fine card to test in its place if you don't feel the need of the Titan. This card is super cool, and always being the best creature on the field is an awesome ability, as is turning all your 1/1s into 3/3s in a deck built to exploit that.
This looks like another one right on the edge of cube playability. As a B-Lister, those are my bread and butter.
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I'm also not in love with sun titan, but a couple people in my playgroup who love it tend to smash me with it every time I debate of cutting it.
For whatever reason have never got it to work well for me, but have lost many a games to it.
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What combos and archetypes do Sun Titan support?
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Two I run are:
Sun Titan + Goblin Bombardment + Fiend Hunter
Sun Titan + Goblin Bombardment + Saffi Eriksdotter
You can also replace bombardment with something like Carrion Feeder, which doesn't win on the spot unless you have Blood Artist or Judith, the Scourge Diva or Purphoros, God of the Forge but can still result in value.
Sun Titan can be replaced by Reveillark in the Saffi combo.
The comboes fit well into aristocrats archetypes as well as Persist combo since all those decks want bombardment.
There's also things like Titan + Armageddon or Smokestack.
Edit: just remembered another Sun Titan + Topsy Turvy + smokestack
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It combos with Fiend Hunter and any sacrifice outlet to get infinite triggers. And any permanent-based combo deck (like persist combo, for example) can use Sun Titan to resurrect both the sac outlets and the persist creatures if they die. And it plays well with Loam/land-based sacrifice decks, Stax shells, and blink decks that are full of cheap permanents for it to target. Also great in Wildfire decks since it both survives the effect and brings back lands.
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While I do enjoy Sun Titan gameplay, and think it’s still rock-solid in most cube sizes, my initial hot take is I would cube Archon over it if forced to pick only one.
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All that being said, white only has one good 6cc creature anyways. So if you're in the mood for something different or you're looking for a 2nd one, this Archonn wins by default, lol. It will be utterly savage when you're wide on tokens or already ahead on board. It will also randomly find situations where you shrink your opponent's bombs into boltable beasts, which will be quite cute. I don't think the Archon is playable in many shells, but it'll likely shine in the ones that want it.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Curious, what kind of decks would you foresee the archon going into?
Do you think it could perform in reanimator? Artifact ramp? UW midrange?
It does remind me of elesh norn a bit, but is better with dealing with tall threats than wide threats on the opposing side.
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I get the skepticism here, but I have really high hopes.
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One thing that I don't love.. is compared to other cubable 6+ cmc threats, if your deck doesn't leverage an over-run type victory and they remove the archon at sorcery speed, you gained very little.
The value of two 1/1's + drawing out a removal spell is a considerably below par base for threats of that cost. That's not a worse case scenario comparison, but it is a fairly common case scenario analysis.
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I agree with all of this, I think. I want to like the card because another competitive 6cc creature in white would be great, but this feels like it'll fall short outside of the one deck that it's good in.
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