Fair - I was thinking of it as an 8-card hand with an okay cube creature as the eighth card, but the fact that it can't be discarded is a good point. I am crazy enough to test this in unpowered, and potentially crazy enough to start going powered because this is such a fun & dumb design that I'd prefer to have a cube that can play such cards
(Seriously, I absolutely love the fact that they decided to try something like this with the wording so that it works in draft and sealed and I assume constructed, unlike the draft-matters-cards from the Conspiracy sets. It's a really ambitious design.)
I'm convinced enough by those advocating for this card, that I'll be testing it. I still have some skepticism, but I think I do need to see how it plays before I get a good grasp on it.
As an aside, I think this might be the best mono-red card in the cube.
I was thinking that as well in an unpowered context. Red sometimes seems like close to the best colour in aggro-supporting unpowered and depending on the way aggro is supported in other colours, red might just be the most capable in closing out a game (contrast to the recent MTGO Vintage Cube iterations where white was, at least in my estimation, the obvious best aggro colour and mono-white aggro was the best archetype or close to it in the Christmas cube iteration). Lutri might end up being too much.
As an aside, I think this might be the best mono-red card in the cube.
I would have to agree, the one thing that is nice though about this card compared to say something like sulfuric vortex though is that this won't get drafted by the mono-red aggro player that often at least I am hoping that because of this, it won't feel too repetitive in terms of how it plays. it will probably feel annoying when this comes downturn 3/4 every game against the red player, but I suspect that it will get drafted pretty heavily into other decks a lot
@wtwlf123 - when you say "any Cube cutting cards for power level shouldn't run this," I think my Cube falls into a category where it's not cut and dry. We run Time Walk, Timetwister, and Mana Drain but have banned Moxen, Crypt, Vault, Sol Ring, Lotus, Ancestral, and Library. So there's a relevant decision in what tier of "best cards" it's in. Is it a Mind Twist / Balance / Mana Drain, or is a Sol Ring?
I guess that'll be up to you to decide. But if you've banned cards for being "too good", you otter stay away from Lutri, IMHO.
Well again, I think that over-simplifies ban criteria. We're not OK with the broken mana accelerants because of the type and level of advantage accrued from those cards in this format. We banned Ancestral and Library because they are multiple tiers better than the next best card advantage cards (a 2U instant draw 3 would be also one of the best cards in Cube). We have kept bombs that are a bit more mana intensive or at minimum require interacting with your opponent to be effective. Mana Drain, Time Walk, Mind Twist, and Balance are some of the best cards in the Cube, for example, but their impact on a game is significantly different than the first tier of banned cards.
It's a relevant question of "is this card a Mind Twist / Mana Drain, or is it an Ancestral Recall / Sol Ring?"
I feel like this is in a weird spot where having access to fast mana (specifically color-fixing ones) makes this more like a Recall/Sol Ring, while excluding specifically fast mana makes it fall more in line with Mana Drain.
I'll be playing it. I've excluded Sol Ring and Mana Crypt from my cube because I don't have access to power, and having such a limited quantity of fast-mana cards was problematic. I don't otherwise exclude cards (notably, I still run Library of Alexandria). In a vacuum, I might take this over Library P1P1. They do different things, but I know I'll see one, and if my draft goes awry, I'm more likely to end up with a deck that can play Lutri than one that can leverage Library.
while I think the card is broken, I’m lower on this card than some.
No chance I’d pick it over power.
The extra card in your hand every game is huge, but the card advantage isn’t realized if games are explosive. It should be weaker than most/all cards in your deck, so you likely won’t be casting it much as long as you have alternatives.
The otter lets you Mulligan aggressively though.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see it in mana drain/twist territory. Though when the dust settles , probably slightly lower.
Card seems really good! Izzet came a long way in a few years. A 3/2 Flash self-dualcaster that kind of pre-emptively cantrips itself in every game seems like a good place to be. I would be leaning to cut Saheeli, the Gifted over Saheeli, Sublime Artificer.
I would play this card as it helps to significantly improve card/ pack quality.
1) One thing I think that's not discussed is I like the interaction between this card and Lion's Eye Diamond. A non-storm based combo deck could potentially cast a powerful 5 drop spell, use Lion's Eye diamond to get the mana for Lutri and cast Lutri from the Companion zone to copy the spell.
Lutri is guaranteed to be in the Companion Zone. This makes Lion's Eye Diamond a much more attractive card for non-storm based combo decks.
2) Another case is that this card could open up the potential for a fork based combo deck potentially viable.
But one thing is I would put equate this card as a conspiracy (I play conspiracy in my cube). One question I have with this card is does it break the spirit of cube? To me, this feels like playing Serra Ascendant in commander or playing Burning Wish in a causal environment.
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Man, I hope you're right. I'm disappointed with how good I'm afraid this card is.
Dude, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I cube with this and I'm surprised by just how insane it is. I want insane cards for the cube, especially given how luke warm Theros was overall for us. I'll happily come back here and eat my hat if it turns out to be busted. Until then, by all means, everyone keep being happy (or sad, I guess) about the little otter guy. He's on my list to test, so we'll see how good he is once we're able to congregate again.
I think this card is great in that it has no opportunity cost besides drafting it and casting it. You don't have to put in in your deck, you don't have to draw it and both of those facts can't be overstated enough. That said, I don't know how many spells matter decks I've put together where a timely fork (attached to a dude) would've been the difference. This is the most playable fork variant we are likely to ever get and it is in a guild that could use the help so I expect this card to be a staple. Is it power good in my estimation? Probably not. It is a very high pick in cube overall though.
I think this card is very, very, very good. I also think taking it over power (real power like moxen, sol ring, lotus, crypt) would be insane. I think it's easily a first-pick quality card in my cube (vintage unpowered), but there are also still cards I would pick over it - JTMS, recurring nightmare, mind twist, 4cmc gideon, maybe fractured identity, and probably more I'm forgetting.
I think this card is great. I'm not worried about it breaking cube.
I think this card is very, very, very good. I also think taking it over power (real power like moxen, sol ring, lotus, crypt) would be insane. I think it's easily a first-pick quality card in my cube (vintage unpowered), but there are also still cards I would pick over it - JTMS, recurring nightmare, mind twist, 4cmc gideon, maybe fractured identity, and probably more I'm forgetting.
I think this card is great. I'm not worried about it breaking cube.
3cmc, 3/2 flash, ETB draw a card + fork your own spell?
I'd cube that in a heartbeat. But you're right, it's not better than power. However, this Otter isn't that card. In fact, Lutri is 2.5 times better than the card described above! How?? Well, consider the following:
The value of a card in your deck can be approximated by the probability you cast it multiplied by the effect when cast. Let's say In an average game of cube, you see about 40% of your deck (16 cards --- it's probably smaller than that to be honest). This means that the value of any card is really about 0.4 * it's actual value at best. Given that you have access to this Otter in 100% of games, the value of Lutri is 2.5 times higher than the card text reads, because we are (subconsciously) used to evaluating cards under this 40% probabilistic lens, I believe that many aren't properly understanding the magnitude of that difference.
I believe this yields a card that is substantially above the cards listed (JTMS, Recurring Nightmare, 4cmc Gideon, etc.). If it's in the discussion related to power is something else, but I believe it should be.
This is the first card in a long time that I'm worried is too powerful to reasonably play in cube. The only other cards in my (unpowered) cube that felt that way were Clocknapper and some of the conspiracies. Looking forward to trying it though
FWIW I don't think this card is 40% as good as some of the best cards in unpowered vintage without the companion clause.
There is also the problem that it isn't a straight 40%.
Assuming you get the card (~40% for the sake of argument) there is a cross product of (power when played)(how often played). An extreme example would be very expensive spells in limited. This card's "how often played" factor is going to be lower because you will only be casting it if you don't have something better available. And, because "power when played" is contextual (ie the "when played" matters) there is going to be diminishing returns based on playing this later in the game.
Also, if you take mean "power when played" then consider the following:
Black Lotus 10
Lutri 4
then by the most naive calculation (x .4) they are equal. But Lutri-in-itself (ie not weighting the companion clause) is hard pressed to be a 4 IMO.
The only point of my calculations was to demonstrate the magnitude of difference access 100% of the time means. If you think the card is actually bad (I don't) then yeah it doesn't matter. But given that I would cube the card in a heartbeat without it in my opening hand, the 100% access makes it seem absurd to me.
Yeah it's quick napkin math, but I think it properly demonstrated my point.
(Seriously, I absolutely love the fact that they decided to try something like this with the wording so that it works in draft and sealed and I assume constructed, unlike the draft-matters-cards from the Conspiracy sets. It's a really ambitious design.)
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I was thinking that as well in an unpowered context. Red sometimes seems like close to the best colour in aggro-supporting unpowered and depending on the way aggro is supported in other colours, red might just be the most capable in closing out a game (contrast to the recent MTGO Vintage Cube iterations where white was, at least in my estimation, the obvious best aggro colour and mono-white aggro was the best archetype or close to it in the Christmas cube iteration). Lutri might end up being too much.
I would have to agree, the one thing that is nice though about this card compared to say something like sulfuric vortex though is that this won't get drafted by the mono-red aggro player that often at least I am hoping that because of this, it won't feel too repetitive in terms of how it plays. it will probably feel annoying when this comes downturn 3/4 every game against the red player, but I suspect that it will get drafted pretty heavily into other decks a lot
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Well again, I think that over-simplifies ban criteria. We're not OK with the broken mana accelerants because of the type and level of advantage accrued from those cards in this format. We banned Ancestral and Library because they are multiple tiers better than the next best card advantage cards (a 2U instant draw 3 would be also one of the best cards in Cube). We have kept bombs that are a bit more mana intensive or at minimum require interacting with your opponent to be effective. Mana Drain, Time Walk, Mind Twist, and Balance are some of the best cards in the Cube, for example, but their impact on a game is significantly different than the first tier of banned cards.
It's a relevant question of "is this card a Mind Twist / Mana Drain, or is it an Ancestral Recall / Sol Ring?"
I'll be playing it. I've excluded Sol Ring and Mana Crypt from my cube because I don't have access to power, and having such a limited quantity of fast-mana cards was problematic. I don't otherwise exclude cards (notably, I still run Library of Alexandria). In a vacuum, I might take this over Library P1P1. They do different things, but I know I'll see one, and if my draft goes awry, I'm more likely to end up with a deck that can play Lutri than one that can leverage Library.
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No chance I’d pick it over power.
The extra card in your hand every game is huge, but the card advantage isn’t realized if games are explosive. It should be weaker than most/all cards in your deck, so you likely won’t be casting it much as long as you have alternatives.
The otter lets you Mulligan aggressively though.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see it in mana drain/twist territory. Though when the dust settles , probably slightly lower.
Could be wrong.
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@LucidVision, that's spot-on with my gut reaction to this card.
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Man, I hope you're right. I'm disappointed with how good I'm afraid this card is.
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1) One thing I think that's not discussed is I like the interaction between this card and Lion's Eye Diamond. A non-storm based combo deck could potentially cast a powerful 5 drop spell, use Lion's Eye diamond to get the mana for Lutri and cast Lutri from the Companion zone to copy the spell.
Lutri is guaranteed to be in the Companion Zone. This makes Lion's Eye Diamond a much more attractive card for non-storm based combo decks.
2) Another case is that this card could open up the potential for a fork based combo deck potentially viable.
But one thing is I would put equate this card as a conspiracy (I play conspiracy in my cube). One question I have with this card is does it break the spirit of cube? To me, this feels like playing Serra Ascendant in commander or playing Burning Wish in a causal environment.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
But it is also an adorable Elemental Otter.
So I will be cubing this.
Dude, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I cube with this and I'm surprised by just how insane it is. I want insane cards for the cube, especially given how luke warm Theros was overall for us. I'll happily come back here and eat my hat if it turns out to be busted. Until then, by all means, everyone keep being happy (or sad, I guess) about the little otter guy. He's on my list to test, so we'll see how good he is once we're able to congregate again.
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I think this card is great. I'm not worried about it breaking cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
the only thing I can say for sure is that I am happy its banned in commander so it will be cheap enough that I can afford to test it.
3cmc, 3/2 flash, ETB draw a card + fork your own spell?
I'd cube that in a heartbeat. But you're right, it's not better than power. However, this Otter isn't that card. In fact, Lutri is 2.5 times better than the card described above! How?? Well, consider the following:
The value of a card in your deck can be approximated by the probability you cast it multiplied by the effect when cast. Let's say In an average game of cube, you see about 40% of your deck (16 cards --- it's probably smaller than that to be honest). This means that the value of any card is really about 0.4 * it's actual value at best. Given that you have access to this Otter in 100% of games, the value of Lutri is 2.5 times higher than the card text reads, because we are (subconsciously) used to evaluating cards under this 40% probabilistic lens, I believe that many aren't properly understanding the magnitude of that difference.
I believe this yields a card that is substantially above the cards listed (JTMS, Recurring Nightmare, 4cmc Gideon, etc.). If it's in the discussion related to power is something else, but I believe it should be.
Edit: For clarity. Wrote that while half asleep.
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375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
There is also the problem that it isn't a straight 40%.
Assuming you get the card (~40% for the sake of argument) there is a cross product of (power when played)(how often played). An extreme example would be very expensive spells in limited. This card's "how often played" factor is going to be lower because you will only be casting it if you don't have something better available. And, because "power when played" is contextual (ie the "when played" matters) there is going to be diminishing returns based on playing this later in the game.
Also, if you take mean "power when played" then consider the following:
Black Lotus 10
Lutri 4
then by the most naive calculation (x .4) they are equal. But Lutri-in-itself (ie not weighting the companion clause) is hard pressed to be a 4 IMO.
Yeah it's quick napkin math, but I think it properly demonstrated my point.
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