Elder Gargaroth 3GG
Creature — Beast
Vigilance, reach, trample
Whenever Elder Gargaroth attacks or blocks, choose one —
• Create a 3/3 green Beast creature token.
• You gain 3 life.
• Draw a card.
6/6
As a very pushed stack stick, this card is good; and we know it. The question is do we want/need this in our cubes? Similar to many 5cc creatures, not necessarily in green, this card can single-handedly end games if left unchecked or, at least, bring you so far ahead. Although, this is, arguably, one of the best in that category, many of those 5cc cards don't make it into lists anymore, or fall out of favor after the hype fades away, especially when they don't pass the so-called "Vindicate Test." Looking at you Kalonian Hydra. I find most 5cc creatures (especially in green, where 5cc creatures are particularly dense) that make lists retain value after quickly being answered such as Hermit Bros., Thragtusk, Biogenic Ooze, Verdurous Gearhulk, Whisperwood Elemental, Doom Whisperer and Siege-Gang Commander...etc.
So, can this be more than just a scary beater? Does it inspire or complement specific strategies? Do we even care as long as we get a powerful mid-rangy finisher that does the job? If you'd give Baneslayer Angel and Ilharg, the Raze-Boar a shot, why not this guy? Love to hear your thoughts!
This is green's best Baneslayer variant ...but in a world where green's 5's already provide a huge amount of power & impact when they hit the board AND they guarantee value when facing down removal, is this something green really wants or needs?
I mean, I like having a few of the risker big bodies floating around, because I think it's important to ask the question: "Do you have it?" ...but those kinds of cards usually fill important/niche roles in the cube too (Baneslayer Angel/Lyra Dawnbringer add win condition depth to Moat/Earthquake shells and they have huge impact in your deck's worst matchups when they survive; Ilharg, the Raze-Boar helps support the fatty-cheating decks and the recursive nature of the card makes it more reliable in decks that are light on win conditions). Does this creature give me anything like that? I'm not sure that it does.
That being said, this is a hell of a creature to attach a Lightning Greaves to...
This card is just ... big dumb green man. I would have probably liked it more if it were just an etb, honestly, because then I'd consider swapping it in for Thragtusk, or something.
It's obviously a strong card. If I'm trying to stabilize, I can gain life on defense, make another token on the swing-back. And yeah, any kind of haste, that's great. But like ... I dunno I feel like I can do literally nothing INTERESTING with the card. It's just not what I want from my 5-drops. The cards I already include have what I think are very powerful and interesting synergies, and this has AFAIK none of them. Just ramp turns 1 and 2 and whoops I have big man, hope you got removal.
I think the cube community as a whole places a little too much emphasis on value when removed and not enough emphasis on value when it survives. The latter is more common than the former. I frequently see people dismiss Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, and other BSA type creatures and then I run a draft and these creatures continue to determine games. The next thing I hear is that these cards must be working in my cube because my removal package isn't strong enough -- this isn't true either and I'll drop my list for you to decide.
That said, the green 5 drop slot is a tough, tough, tough slot to get into. I will probably at least test this one in place of either Kalonian Hydra, Thragtusk or Acidic Slime. Triggering on attack rather than damage is great, triggering on the block while having reach and vigilance makes it an insanely good blocker as well, and the diversity of options to choose when this attacks or blocks is extremely relevant. Going to have to get some play in with this one to see if it generates enough value on average to outclass the other options. My guess is that it's average case scenario is better than acidic slime and comparable to Thragtusk or Kalonian Hydra.
Additionally, if you support a Fires of Yavimaya archetype, this is one of the better 5-drops to play in that shell. I know some cubes have built their sections around this theme.
Saw someone talking about cutting Primeval Titan for this in a Reddit thread which is kind of a spicy idea. Same p/t, both have trample, a ramping 6 drop isn't often doing more than thinning my deck so I can draw more non-land spells (although certain utility lands work well with PrimeTime). This can draw, create bodies, or gain life, play offense and defense and costs less. I actually like several five drops more than the Titan as is so maybe...?
That isn't a spicy idea imo. Getting the lands from Prime time is often what breaks the game open for you, not to mention being a 6 drop to pod into/from etc
I'd rather have any of the G army in a can variants over this at 5, especially in a world where Questing Beast exists and is just the card you want first if you want a card like this. Unless you really want 2 midgrange keyword salad green guys, this feels like an easy pass.
Probably one of the better true 5-cmc Baneslayers, but it's a still a Baneslayer in the face of immense competition. Green more than any other color needs to diversify its in the form of going wide / planeswalkers to keep up the pressure / not putting all the eggs in one basket only to get wiped / wrathed / stolen.
Green already has a history of Baneslayers with Kalonian Hydra / Verdurous Gearhulk. Gearhulk was a solid performer in my cube, but ultimately got cut for Biogenic Ooze. I honestly don't think this is better than Gearhulk, which can at least spread out its power, not to mention keep up with the increased competition that has been printed since Biogenic Ooze, like Nissa, Who Shakes the World / Vivien, Monster's Advocate.
Primeval Titan's value varies quite a bit on your land suite and supported archetypes. For many cubes Primeval Titan is worse than Honored Hydra. Also, except for with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary or Natural Order, Titan will never come out on turn 3, but this will. T1, T2 mana dorks (a very common line of play for green) means this can resolve on turn 3. Baneslayer Angel doesn't come out on turn 3.
The reason green doesn't run a baneslayer angel is because it doesn't need a baneslayer. For many colors getting to 5 mana is really the top end. Green can go much higher. For most colors an undercosted fatty with loads of keywords is unusual, so you don't get much more spice. Green on the other hand is loaded with fatties, so much so you can often find a very similar cards tweaked in certain ways.
So if you are playing a a green deck what do you want out of your 5 drop.
Against aggro you want to block, and maybe gain life. Seems good here, if it makes it a turn.
Against midrange you want to get more than a card value. Seems good, if it makes it a turn.
Against control, you want disruption and durability and a must answer threat. Rough, but it is must answer, if it lasts.
Against combo, you want want explosiveness and disruption. No points, but ending the game soonish isn't bad.
The thing about Titan is I get ramp when I reanimate or natural order it. Prime time is often my warm up. Carnage tyrant is at least immute to point removal. Gearhulk has pseudohaste. Ozze gets all kinds of value. Vorapede at least has durability. I have come down on the squirrel guys, but I am not sure I want this.
Obviously a very powerful card, I think its more of a matter of taste at this point. Green has a treasure trove of 5CMC or greater finishers. I think this card checks too many boxes to be ignored. While no ETB trigger takes away possible synergies I do think it does it all on its own.
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Elder Gargaroth 3GG
Creature — Beast
Vigilance, reach, trample
Whenever Elder Gargaroth attacks or blocks, choose one —
• Create a 3/3 green Beast creature token.
• You gain 3 life.
• Draw a card.
6/6
As a very pushed stack stick, this card is good; and we know it. The question is do we want/need this in our cubes? Similar to many 5cc creatures, not necessarily in green, this card can single-handedly end games if left unchecked or, at least, bring you so far ahead. Although, this is, arguably, one of the best in that category, many of those 5cc cards don't make it into lists anymore, or fall out of favor after the hype fades away, especially when they don't pass the so-called "Vindicate Test." Looking at you Kalonian Hydra. I find most 5cc creatures (especially in green, where 5cc creatures are particularly dense) that make lists retain value after quickly being answered such as Hermit Bros., Thragtusk, Biogenic Ooze, Verdurous Gearhulk, Whisperwood Elemental, Doom Whisperer and Siege-Gang Commander...etc.
So, can this be more than just a scary beater? Does it inspire or complement specific strategies? Do we even care as long as we get a powerful mid-rangy finisher that does the job? If you'd give Baneslayer Angel and Ilharg, the Raze-Boar a shot, why not this guy? Love to hear your thoughts!
I mean, I like having a few of the risker big bodies floating around, because I think it's important to ask the question: "Do you have it?" ...but those kinds of cards usually fill important/niche roles in the cube too (Baneslayer Angel/Lyra Dawnbringer add win condition depth to Moat/Earthquake shells and they have huge impact in your deck's worst matchups when they survive; Ilharg, the Raze-Boar helps support the fatty-cheating decks and the recursive nature of the card makes it more reliable in decks that are light on win conditions). Does this creature give me anything like that? I'm not sure that it does.
That being said, this is a hell of a creature to attach a Lightning Greaves to...
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It's obviously a strong card. If I'm trying to stabilize, I can gain life on defense, make another token on the swing-back. And yeah, any kind of haste, that's great. But like ... I dunno I feel like I can do literally nothing INTERESTING with the card. It's just not what I want from my 5-drops. The cards I already include have what I think are very powerful and interesting synergies, and this has AFAIK none of them. Just ramp turns 1 and 2 and whoops I have big man, hope you got removal.
Basically I hate it.
Despite having similar concerns, at the end of the day, I do believe green deserves a Baneslayer Angel.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/5d5ebc96726e4277c7ba52f9
That said, the green 5 drop slot is a tough, tough, tough slot to get into. I will probably at least test this one in place of either Kalonian Hydra, Thragtusk or Acidic Slime. Triggering on attack rather than damage is great, triggering on the block while having reach and vigilance makes it an insanely good blocker as well, and the diversity of options to choose when this attacks or blocks is extremely relevant. Going to have to get some play in with this one to see if it generates enough value on average to outclass the other options. My guess is that it's average case scenario is better than acidic slime and comparable to Thragtusk or Kalonian Hydra.
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My real problem with this card is that I don't think it is really all that interesting. Pretty straight boring.
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Green already has a history of Baneslayers with Kalonian Hydra / Verdurous Gearhulk. Gearhulk was a solid performer in my cube, but ultimately got cut for Biogenic Ooze. I honestly don't think this is better than Gearhulk, which can at least spread out its power, not to mention keep up with the increased competition that has been printed since Biogenic Ooze, like Nissa, Who Shakes the World / Vivien, Monster's Advocate.
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Serves a near identical function to Baneslayer.
it has pros and cons compared to Baneslayer, Overall I think it’s a tiny bit better.
The slightly faster clock is enough of a kicker.
It may be strong enough to overcome failing the vindicate test, but if it is, it’s only by a small amount.
Think it’s worth testing in the 720 range. Mayyyybe 540
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So if you are playing a a green deck what do you want out of your 5 drop.
Against aggro you want to block, and maybe gain life. Seems good here, if it makes it a turn.
Against midrange you want to get more than a card value. Seems good, if it makes it a turn.
Against control, you want disruption and durability and a must answer threat. Rough, but it is must answer, if it lasts.
Against combo, you want want explosiveness and disruption. No points, but ending the game soonish isn't bad.
The thing about Titan is I get ramp when I reanimate or natural order it. Prime time is often my warm up. Carnage tyrant is at least immute to point removal. Gearhulk has pseudohaste. Ozze gets all kinds of value. Vorapede at least has durability. I have come down on the squirrel guys, but I am not sure I want this.