This card seems pretty good, but I already painfully cut Phantasmal Image from my 360 cube a while back (which I think is a better card) - so no, I won't be playing this. Would probably play this at 540+.
Yeah, I would NEVER run this over image, which is hands down the best clone. Of course, I also can't imagine not running image in a cube of any size, unless it's some kind of themed cube that doesn't run creatures.
Phantasmal Image stayed in my cube because its two mana cost was incredibly important in the Pod/ Vannifar Deck.
From my experience, not being able to copy the opponent's has been incredibly underwhelming.
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I'm higher on these effects than WTWLF123 by his example because reducing cost by 1 [...]
This has been the funniest part of the process to me so far. I've been having to defend my position that they're currently being undervalued by the cube community at large ...and I know I'm intentionally undervaluing them!
I put the 1 "tax" estimation on there for me to be able to build an upfront baseline with, which will likely need to be revised and expanded later. These cards are likely worth well more than 1-mana, but I'm trying to err on the side of being conservative with these evaluations.
This card seems pretty good, but I already painfully cut Phantasmal Image from my 360 cube a while back (which I think is a better card) - so no, I won't be playing this. Would probably play this at 540+.
Yeah, I would NEVER run this over image, which is hands down the best clone. Of course, I also can't imagine not running image in a cube of any size, unless it's some kind of themed cube that doesn't run creatures.
Phantasmal Image stayed in my cube because its two mana cost was incredibly important in the Pod/ Vannifar Deck.
From my experience, not being able to copy the opponent's has been incredibly underwhelming.
The reason not being able to copy opponent is underwhelming is because the card gets stuck in your hand and effectively does nothing. When clone is bad, play it as a land. When clone is good, it's VERY good. Evaluating these cards properly requires forgetting about the Worst-Case-Scenario of similar effects. It's irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is the probability of that WCS, as it will dictate how often this is played as a land. But how bad the WCS is does not matter.
This card seems pretty good, but I already painfully cut Phantasmal Image from my 360 cube a while back (which I think is a better card) - so no, I won't be playing this. Would probably play this at 540+.
Yeah, I would NEVER run this over image, which is hands down the best clone. Of course, I also can't imagine not running image in a cube of any size, unless it's some kind of themed cube that doesn't run creatures.
Phantasmal Image stayed in my cube because its two mana cost was incredibly important in the Pod/ Vannifar Deck.
From my experience, not being able to copy the opponent's has been incredibly underwhelming.
The reason not being able to copy opponent is underwhelming is because the card gets stuck in your hand and effectively does nothing. When clone is bad, play it as a land. When clone is good, it's VERY good. Evaluating these cards properly requires forgetting about the Worst-Case-Scenario of similar effects. It's irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is the probability of that WCS, as it will dictate how often this is played as a land. But how bad the WCS is does not matter.
When I evaluate cards for my cube, I look for three things:
1) Could it played in a lot of archetypes?
2) Is the card a key anchor piece of an archetype?
3) Is the card powerful?
The problem is a self-clone effect isn't very useful and could only fit in the aristocrats/ flicker decks as a mid level playable. Aristocrats decks in particular struggles with bigger creatures cheated ahead of curve and clone effects could be an effective "answer" that will provide some back and forth.
The second problem is this isn't going to be a powerful aristocrats card or UW flicker card similar to something like Judith or Soulherder.
Sure, the card could be played as a tapped blue land, but the issue is blue is a splash color in these archetypes, not a primary color, which makes this type of effect incredibly underwhelming.
The other problem is the other land/spell cards could be more effectively used with cards like Crucible, Wrenn and Six. This cannot; its off color, its effect doesn't fit those archetypes and its not recursive.
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I must say I'm very intrigued how these lands will pan out. I often disagree with forum users about the power level of cards (and usually, I think a card is less good than people say it is), but seldom to this extent. I'd play one of these cards only if the spell side was playable in its own right, like I think Quench and Naturalize are. If it's not a decent rate, I don't see it. The green creature for instance is probably pretty good (the 3/3 landfall) because I'd gladly play that on its own, making the land part pure upside. But a three mana Regrowth? I also think Cycling is better than the ability to play something as a tapped land, because often neither a land or the spell is good enough! And I see that happening a LOT with these cards, a monocolor land that ETB tapped is awful and the spell side is overcosted. I'm so far on the other side of this argument that it's getting pretty lonely
1) Could it played in a lot of archetypes?
2) Is the card a key anchor piece of an archetype?
3) Is the card powerful?
My evaluation typically goes beyond how cards fit into archetypes, to look at how cards fit in decks in general. A couple of years ago I tried to build a cube where every card went into an archetype (and ideally multiple archetypes). The experiment failed miserably because everyone ended up picking a lane and then drafting on wheels. The reality is that sometimes you just need cards like this, solid glue that can go into any deck and be decent + dependable.
I'm so far on the other side of this argument that it's getting pretty lonely
I don't think you're necessarily alone in thinking this, it's just that the other side is being louder
That being said, I'm definitely on the other side of this debate than you, for the reasons already outlined by wtwlf and ryansaxe. Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out though!
To add to the discussion on MDFC cards as the resident idiot in this forum, I would like to propose an alternate way of evaluating these cards.
Much alike how my group treats Hybrid cards within our larger cube as either A or B when finding slots rather than gold cards, perhaps it would be useful for people to think of MDFC cards as lands first, spells second. As in, the question should be, "Is the possibility to play XY spell worth this land entering tapped". For instance, cubes that are heavily reliant on basic lands matter cards (Spitting Earth, Aven Trailblazer) would find lower value in these cards. Heavily multicolour cubes would find higher value (incidental mana fixing).
For the average cube designer, I would suspect that evaluating these cards as lands first would simplify the 'cubeable' checklist too, 1) Does my cube have this effect? and 2) Does entering the battlefield tapped effect the tempo of the decks playing it?
If one is no (I don't have this effect), then the MDFC card is almost a shoe in: As WTF mentioned, it improves the viability of opening hands, while not changing or impacting upon cards already in the cube. If one is yes (I have this effect), then it becomes a matter of taste (wether your group/cube interact better with cycling or mana fixing).
If two is no (This doesn't slow down the decks playing it), then the MDFC card is almost a shoe in for the same reason as 1. If two is yes, and the ETBT clause would slow down a deck (Aggro mostly, I presume), then maybe the MDFC isn't right for your cube/group.
I think by evaluating things this way, as lands first and spells second, it would improve the understanding of what these cards are aiming to do design wise so we can make more nuanced decisions, as the cards themselves are largely good (lands that are spells are innately good), so I believe decisions come down to interaction with individual cubes and play scenarios than it does the raw power of the cards themselves. Something we should be happy for, that we have enough good cards to be deciding on preference.
Or disregard this, because I'm an idiot and should be awarded a literal Jester's Cap everytime I speak
The other problem is the other land/spell cards could be more effectively used with cards like Crucible, Wrenn and Six. This cannot; its off color, its effect doesn't fit those archetypes and its not recursive.
All these land modal cards count only as their front side when they aren't on the battlefield. So you can't get them back with Wreen and Six, etc.
Rumor is that's not exactly true. You have the option of playing their land side any time you can play a land (from any zone). So according to some folks that have had early access for testing, you can play them (as lands) off the top of your library with Courser effects (like Radha, Heart of Keld) and from your 'yard with Crucible effects. But only when you have the option to PLAY the card. You're right that it can't be targeted by Loam or W&6 in the 'yard. We'll have to wait for the official rules release to see how they work exactly ...but there may be additional interactions in store for these cards.
Rumor is that's not exactly true. You have the option of playing their land side any time you can play a land (from any zone). So according to some folks that have had early access for testing, you can play them (as lands) off the top of your library with Courser effects (like Radha, Heart of Keld) and from your 'yard with Crucible effects. But only when you have the option to PLAY the card. You're right that it can't be targeted by Loam or W&6 in the 'yard. We'll have to wait for the official rules release to see how they work exactly ...but there may be additional interactions in store for these cards.
You can play the back face from another zone with things like Courser/Oracle of Mul Daya/Radha or with Crucible effects, but you can't jam them with an Uro trigger or return them with Loam.
Rumor is that's not exactly true. You have the option of playing their land side any time you can play a land (from any zone). So according to some folks that have had early access for testing, you can play them (as lands) off the top of your library with Courser effects (like Radha, Heart of Keld) and from your 'yard with Crucible effects. But only when you have the option to PLAY the card. You're right that it can't be targeted by Loam or W&6 in the 'yard. We'll have to wait for the official rules release to see how they work exactly ...but there may be additional interactions in store for these cards.
You can play the back face from another zone with things like Courser/Oracle of Mul Daya/Radha or with Crucible effects, but you can't jam them with an Uro trigger or return them with Loam.
I find this rule to be incredibly unintuitive with how other 2-sided cards have worked. You can't play the land side of Legion's Landing out of your yard with crucible. But because these are MODAL dual face cards rather than TRANSFORM dual faced cards, you can! Like, magic is full of contradicting rules and corner cases, and we'll learn this one just like we've learned all the other ones, but it's still gonna confuse people who know the rules for transform cards. Also, it's weird that they don't count as a land for things like thoughtseize, but DO count as a land for crucible. Although I guess maybe it would be just as confusing if you could play these with explore but not with crucible. I dunno.
To determine whether it is legal to play a modal double-faced card, consider only the characteristics of the face you're playing and ignore the other face's characteristics. For example, you can cast Sejiri Shelter if you've already played a land for the turn, and you can play Sejiri Glacier even if an effect stops you from casting instant spells.
If an effect allows you to play a specific modal double-faced card, you may cast it as a spell or play it as a land, as determined by which face you choose to play. If an effect allows you to cast (rather than "play") a specific modal double-faced card, you can't play it as a land.
If an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. For example, if Sejiri Shelter / Sejiri Glacier is in your graveyard and an effect allows you to play lands from your graveyard, you could play Sejiri Glacier. That effect doesn't allow you to cast Sejiri Shelter.
The converted mana cost of a modal double-faced card is based on the characteristics of the face that's being considered. On the stack and battlefield, consider whichever face is up. In all other zones, consider only the front face. This is different than how the converted mana cost of a transforming double-faced card is determined.
A modal double-faced card can't be transformed or be put onto the battlefield transformed. Ignore any instruction to transform a modal double-faced card or to put one onto the battlefield transformed.
General Information on Double-Faced Cards
Each face of a double-faced card has its own set of characteristics: name, types, subtypes, abilities, and so on. While a double-faced card is on the stack or battlefield, consider only the characteristics of the face that's currently up. The other set of characteristics is ignored.
While a double-faced card isn't on the stack or battlefield, consider only the characteristics of its front face. For example, the above card has only the characteristics of Sejiri Shelter in the graveyard, even if it was Sejiri Glacier on the battlefield before it was put into the graveyard. Notably, this means that Sejiri Shelter is a nonland card even though you could play it as a land.
If an effect puts a double-faced card onto the battlefield, it enters with its front face up. If that front face can't be put onto the battlefield, it doesn't enter the battlefield. For example, if an effect exiles Sejiri Glacier and returns it to the battlefield, it remains in exile because an instant can't be put onto the battlefield.
If an effect instructs a player to choose a card name, the name of either face may be chosen. If that effect or a linked ability refers to a spell with the chosen name being cast and/or a land with the chosen name being played, it considers only the chosen name, not the other face's name.
In the Commander variant, a double-faced card's color identity is determined by the mana costs and mana symbols in the rules text of both faces combined. If either face has a color indicator or basic land type, those are also considered.
One or both faces of a double-faced card may include a reminder about what's on the other face. This reminder text has no effect on gameplay.
Each double-faced card has an icon in the top-left corner of each face. For modal double-faced cards in this set, these icons are a single triangle for the front face, and a double triangle for the back face. These icons have no effect on gameplay.
They count as the front side in every zone. They can be played as a land any time you can play a land.
Should be relatively intuitive.
Right, like I said we'll remember it. But it's pretty confusing that the OTHER dual-faced cards that are land on one side, something else on the other, cannot be played this way, even though they look almost exactly the same.
They count as the front side in every zone. They can be played as a land any time you can play a land.
Should be relatively intuitive.
Right, like I said we'll remember it. But it's pretty confusing that the OTHER dual-faced cards that are land on one side, something else on the other, cannot be played this way, even though they look almost exactly the same.
I mean, sure. It isn't more confusing to me to be able to play them but not a flipped Legion's Landing from your graveyard than it is to be able to do so from your hand, though.
I didn't figure you'd be able to use them with Crucible. That's upside. And it's not exactly intuitive. In fact it's kinda confusing that you can get it with crucible but you can't find it with Expedition Map, at least from the perspective of players who aren't the most steeped in rules minutia.
I mean, sure. It isn't more confusing to me to be able to play them but not a flipped Legion's Landing from your graveyard than it is to be able to do so from your hand, though.
Well sure, but you can never, ever play legion's landing as a land, or find it as a land, or anything. It's only ever a land when it has transformed on the battlefield. These are a land if you're checking whether you can play them when you could play a land, but aren't a land for "put it into play" effects, nor while searching your library, nor while resolving "nonland" discard effects. This is likely the only way to make these cards work, so I'm not saying it's not the best solution, just that it will be confusing.
So like, if you don't think that's confusing, fine, but it seems pretty confusing to me.
Edit edit - Ignore the edit edit. Courser's oracle text now no longer says land cards, it just says "you can play lands from the top." So that's gonna be an interaction people mess up, but that's on Courser's oracle text being different from its printed text.
I mean, sure. It isn't more confusing to me to be able to play them but not a flipped Legion's Landing from your graveyard than it is to be able to do so from your hand, though.
Well sure, but you can never, ever play legion's landing as a land, or find it as a land, or anything. It's only ever a land when it has transformed on the battlefield. There are a land if you're checking whether you can play them when you could play a land, but aren't a land for "put it into play" effects, nor while searching your library, nor while resolving "nonland" discard effects. This is likely the only way to make these cards work, so I'm not saying it's not the best solution, just that it will be confusing.
It's definitely going to be a hassle. I'm sure that they could have made things work differently if they wanted to, but chose this route likely for some semblance of consistency with TDFCs.
I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
I always tend to be err on the conservative side (eg I personally think mutate is an overcomplicated mess for little gain over auras) but mdfcs strike me like they could've just been (basic [[type]])cycling: 1 and achieved nearly the same effect. Yes there would be a number of functional differences but without the enormous baggage we get here. Granted it wouldn't have been nearly as splashy and I know they want to limit shuffle effects. But still.
I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
While mildly annoying, there are other cards in the cube already where Oracle text changes their function. Burn spells that don't have an "any target" errata still read creature or player, and without checking oracle text, you wouldn't know that you can target planeswalkers with them. Searing Spear can hit 'walkers, FYI. Creature type erratas matter too, and there are some that don't have current printings. And so on. It's a bummer, but we'll learn it and get over it, just like all the other oracle text changes that impact function.
While mildly annoying, there are other cards in the cube already where Oracle text changes their function. Burn spells that don't have an "any target" errata still read creature or player, and without checking oracle text, you wouldn't know that you can target planeswalkers with them. Searing Spear can hit 'walkers, FYI. Creature type erratas matter too, and there are some that don't have current printings. And so on. It's a bummer, but we'll learn it and get over it, just like all the other oracle text changes that impact function.
I already said we'd get used to it lol, but do you actually not think these interactions are confusing? Do you not think it's not at all confusing that you can play these off Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya but not Coiling Oracle and Nissa? That they don't get exiled with countryside crusher? That you can play with with Crucible et al, but can't get them back with splendid reclamation, nor with world shaper? That you HAVE to cast the spell half with Omen Machine and Unexpected results?
I never said that these interactions were so confusing that I won't play the cards, just that they are confusing and it's unfortunate they couldn't find a better way to implement these. Hell, they could have made the rule be "when playing this card from your hand, you may play either side." Would that have been less confusing? Maybe, or maybe the way they did it really was the best way. None of that changes the fact that people will mistake how these cards interact with land vs land card vs play vs put into play vs cast. That's all I'm saying.
Edit - and if there was a card that let you play land cards from your graveyard, you couldn't play these, since they are not land cards, but are lands (which is actually what the printings of crucible say too, oracle text just says lands).
Edit edit - It looks like there was actually a big oracle change, whether to make these cards work or for some other reason I can't say. Bolas' citadel now says "play lands and cast spells" instead of "play the top card," as do other cards that previously simply said "play cards." It seems like every card that referenced playing "land cards" now simply says "play lands," but cards that care about land cards for other reasons (Kamigawa reveal cards, dryad greenseeker, etc) all still say land card. Strange.
Yeah, I'm sure regular cube drafters will be fine, but we have people who rotate in occasionally who will be confused, as will the more casual groups I play with, and I'm sure that everyone will have to ask if the can play it with oracle and courser and crucible the first time it comes up for that player. We'll be able to internalize basically any Magic rule, but we're in like the top 10% of magic players in terms of rules understanding just by nature of being cube managers.
Phantasmal Image stayed in my cube because its two mana cost was incredibly important in the Pod/ Vannifar Deck.
From my experience, not being able to copy the opponent's has been incredibly underwhelming.
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This has been the funniest part of the process to me so far. I've been having to defend my position that they're currently being undervalued by the cube community at large ...and I know I'm intentionally undervaluing them!
I put the 1 "tax" estimation on there for me to be able to build an upfront baseline with, which will likely need to be revised and expanded later. These cards are likely worth well more than 1-mana, but I'm trying to err on the side of being conservative with these evaluations.
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The reason not being able to copy opponent is underwhelming is because the card gets stuck in your hand and effectively does nothing. When clone is bad, play it as a land. When clone is good, it's VERY good. Evaluating these cards properly requires forgetting about the Worst-Case-Scenario of similar effects. It's irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is the probability of that WCS, as it will dictate how often this is played as a land. But how bad the WCS is does not matter.
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When I evaluate cards for my cube, I look for three things:
1) Could it played in a lot of archetypes?
2) Is the card a key anchor piece of an archetype?
3) Is the card powerful?
The problem is a self-clone effect isn't very useful and could only fit in the aristocrats/ flicker decks as a mid level playable. Aristocrats decks in particular struggles with bigger creatures cheated ahead of curve and clone effects could be an effective "answer" that will provide some back and forth.
The second problem is this isn't going to be a powerful aristocrats card or UW flicker card similar to something like Judith or Soulherder.
Sure, the card could be played as a tapped blue land, but the issue is blue is a splash color in these archetypes, not a primary color, which makes this type of effect incredibly underwhelming.
The other problem is the other land/spell cards could be more effectively used with cards like Crucible, Wrenn and Six. This cannot; its off color, its effect doesn't fit those archetypes and its not recursive.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My evaluation typically goes beyond how cards fit into archetypes, to look at how cards fit in decks in general. A couple of years ago I tried to build a cube where every card went into an archetype (and ideally multiple archetypes). The experiment failed miserably because everyone ended up picking a lane and then drafting on wheels. The reality is that sometimes you just need cards like this, solid glue that can go into any deck and be decent + dependable.
I don't think you're necessarily alone in thinking this, it's just that the other side is being louder
That being said, I'm definitely on the other side of this debate than you, for the reasons already outlined by wtwlf and ryansaxe. Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out though!
Much alike how my group treats Hybrid cards within our larger cube as either A or B when finding slots rather than gold cards, perhaps it would be useful for people to think of MDFC cards as lands first, spells second. As in, the question should be, "Is the possibility to play XY spell worth this land entering tapped". For instance, cubes that are heavily reliant on basic lands matter cards (Spitting Earth, Aven Trailblazer) would find lower value in these cards. Heavily multicolour cubes would find higher value (incidental mana fixing).
For the average cube designer, I would suspect that evaluating these cards as lands first would simplify the 'cubeable' checklist too, 1) Does my cube have this effect? and 2) Does entering the battlefield tapped effect the tempo of the decks playing it?
If one is no (I don't have this effect), then the MDFC card is almost a shoe in: As WTF mentioned, it improves the viability of opening hands, while not changing or impacting upon cards already in the cube. If one is yes (I have this effect), then it becomes a matter of taste (wether your group/cube interact better with cycling or mana fixing).
If two is no (This doesn't slow down the decks playing it), then the MDFC card is almost a shoe in for the same reason as 1. If two is yes, and the ETBT clause would slow down a deck (Aggro mostly, I presume), then maybe the MDFC isn't right for your cube/group.
I think by evaluating things this way, as lands first and spells second, it would improve the understanding of what these cards are aiming to do design wise so we can make more nuanced decisions, as the cards themselves are largely good (lands that are spells are innately good), so I believe decisions come down to interaction with individual cubes and play scenarios than it does the raw power of the cards themselves. Something we should be happy for, that we have enough good cards to be deciding on preference.
Or disregard this, because I'm an idiot and should be awarded a literal Jester's Cap everytime I speak
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
Edit: holy *****, 56 posts in 14 years? You should definitely open your mouth more often!
All these land modal cards count only as their front side when they aren't on the battlefield. So you can't get them back with Wreen and Six, etc.
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You can play the back face from another zone with things like Courser/Oracle of Mul Daya/Radha or with Crucible effects, but you can't jam them with an Uro trigger or return them with Loam.
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I find this rule to be incredibly unintuitive with how other 2-sided cards have worked. You can't play the land side of Legion's Landing out of your yard with crucible. But because these are MODAL dual face cards rather than TRANSFORM dual faced cards, you can! Like, magic is full of contradicting rules and corner cases, and we'll learn this one just like we've learned all the other ones, but it's still gonna confuse people who know the rules for transform cards. Also, it's weird that they don't count as a land for things like thoughtseize, but DO count as a land for crucible. Although I guess maybe it would be just as confusing if you could play these with explore but not with crucible. I dunno.
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Should be relatively intuitive.
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Playing with Modal Double-Faced Cards
To determine whether it is legal to play a modal double-faced card, consider only the characteristics of the face you're playing and ignore the other face's characteristics. For example, you can cast Sejiri Shelter if you've already played a land for the turn, and you can play Sejiri Glacier even if an effect stops you from casting instant spells.
If an effect allows you to play a specific modal double-faced card, you may cast it as a spell or play it as a land, as determined by which face you choose to play. If an effect allows you to cast (rather than "play") a specific modal double-faced card, you can't play it as a land.
If an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. For example, if Sejiri Shelter / Sejiri Glacier is in your graveyard and an effect allows you to play lands from your graveyard, you could play Sejiri Glacier. That effect doesn't allow you to cast Sejiri Shelter.
The converted mana cost of a modal double-faced card is based on the characteristics of the face that's being considered. On the stack and battlefield, consider whichever face is up. In all other zones, consider only the front face. This is different than how the converted mana cost of a transforming double-faced card is determined.
A modal double-faced card can't be transformed or be put onto the battlefield transformed. Ignore any instruction to transform a modal double-faced card or to put one onto the battlefield transformed.
General Information on Double-Faced Cards
Each face of a double-faced card has its own set of characteristics: name, types, subtypes, abilities, and so on. While a double-faced card is on the stack or battlefield, consider only the characteristics of the face that's currently up. The other set of characteristics is ignored.
While a double-faced card isn't on the stack or battlefield, consider only the characteristics of its front face. For example, the above card has only the characteristics of Sejiri Shelter in the graveyard, even if it was Sejiri Glacier on the battlefield before it was put into the graveyard. Notably, this means that Sejiri Shelter is a nonland card even though you could play it as a land.
If an effect puts a double-faced card onto the battlefield, it enters with its front face up. If that front face can't be put onto the battlefield, it doesn't enter the battlefield. For example, if an effect exiles Sejiri Glacier and returns it to the battlefield, it remains in exile because an instant can't be put onto the battlefield.
If an effect instructs a player to choose a card name, the name of either face may be chosen. If that effect or a linked ability refers to a spell with the chosen name being cast and/or a land with the chosen name being played, it considers only the chosen name, not the other face's name.
In the Commander variant, a double-faced card's color identity is determined by the mana costs and mana symbols in the rules text of both faces combined. If either face has a color indicator or basic land type, those are also considered.
One or both faces of a double-faced card may include a reminder about what's on the other face. This reminder text has no effect on gameplay.
Each double-faced card has an icon in the top-left corner of each face. For modal double-faced cards in this set, these icons are a single triangle for the front face, and a double triangle for the back face. These icons have no effect on gameplay.
Right, like I said we'll remember it. But it's pretty confusing that the OTHER dual-faced cards that are land on one side, something else on the other, cannot be played this way, even though they look almost exactly the same.
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Well sure, but you can never, ever play legion's landing as a land, or find it as a land, or anything. It's only ever a land when it has transformed on the battlefield. These are a land if you're checking whether you can play them when you could play a land, but aren't a land for "put it into play" effects, nor while searching your library, nor while resolving "nonland" discard effects. This is likely the only way to make these cards work, so I'm not saying it's not the best solution, just that it will be confusing.
Edit - and I'm pretty sure you can't put one of these into play with arboreal grazer or sakura-tribe scout, either, but you can play them with oracle of mul daya and courser of kruphix, but you can't play them with coiling oracle (you have to draw them) nor with nissa, steward of elements. Oh, and you can play with with explore effects, cause that says play, unlike grazer or scout.
So like, if you don't think that's confusing, fine, but it seems pretty confusing to me.
Edit edit - Ignore the edit edit. Courser's oracle text now no longer says land cards, it just says "you can play lands from the top." So that's gonna be an interaction people mess up, but that's on Courser's oracle text being different from its printed text.
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I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
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I always tend to be err on the conservative side (eg I personally think mutate is an overcomplicated mess for little gain over auras) but mdfcs strike me like they could've just been (basic [[type]])cycling: 1 and achieved nearly the same effect. Yes there would be a number of functional differences but without the enormous baggage we get here. Granted it wouldn't have been nearly as splashy and I know they want to limit shuffle effects. But still.
While mildly annoying, there are other cards in the cube already where Oracle text changes their function. Burn spells that don't have an "any target" errata still read creature or player, and without checking oracle text, you wouldn't know that you can target planeswalkers with them. Searing Spear can hit 'walkers, FYI. Creature type erratas matter too, and there are some that don't have current printings. And so on. It's a bummer, but we'll learn it and get over it, just like all the other oracle text changes that impact function.
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I already said we'd get used to it lol, but do you actually not think these interactions are confusing? Do you not think it's not at all confusing that you can play these off Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya but not Coiling Oracle and Nissa? That they don't get exiled with countryside crusher? That you can play with with Crucible et al, but can't get them back with splendid reclamation, nor with world shaper? That you HAVE to cast the spell half with Omen Machine and Unexpected results?
I never said that these interactions were so confusing that I won't play the cards, just that they are confusing and it's unfortunate they couldn't find a better way to implement these. Hell, they could have made the rule be "when playing this card from your hand, you may play either side." Would that have been less confusing? Maybe, or maybe the way they did it really was the best way. None of that changes the fact that people will mistake how these cards interact with land vs land card vs play vs put into play vs cast. That's all I'm saying.
Edit - and if there was a card that let you play land cards from your graveyard, you couldn't play these, since they are not land cards, but are lands (which is actually what the printings of crucible say too, oracle text just says lands).
Edit edit - It looks like there was actually a big oracle change, whether to make these cards work or for some other reason I can't say. Bolas' citadel now says "play lands and cast spells" instead of "play the top card," as do other cards that previously simply said "play cards." It seems like every card that referenced playing "land cards" now simply says "play lands," but cards that care about land cards for other reasons (Kamigawa reveal cards, dryad greenseeker, etc) all still say land card. Strange.
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1. You can play them as a land any time you could play a land (from any zone).
2. They're never "land cards" in any zone other than the battlefield.
...Once you follow those two rules, I think they're relatively intuitive and easy to understand. I'm not concerned with it.
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