I'm considering moving my cube down to 360 as a change in circumstances now means that I don't see my magic playing friends as much so my cube is almost always drafted 1 vs 1. Also now that the cube is pretty well established we've tired of running tenchester drafts as with only 2 people you can basically force whatever deck you want to play which is removing some of the dynamics of what the packs bring. To shake things up we're gonna be using pancake drafting more and maybe some winston, but these formats use 198 and 90 cards respectively so I think a pool of 450 will spread archetype support cards too thin.
I've had a quick and brutal look at my sections and made a first draft of what cuts I think would work. I'd greatly appreciate if people could give me some feedback. My cube was originally 360 but I moved up to 450 so I could better support things like Pox, artifacts and wildfire, ideally I'd like to keep strategies like these viable at 360 but I'm not sure that's possible. My cuts remove the artifact package, preserve wildfire but I'm still short a bunch of cuts in black.
By my counting, I still need to cut 9 cards as follows.
2 in Blue, 2 in Black, 1 in Green and 5 in Colourless.
I've no doubt made plenty of errors so feel free to tell me that I'm daft for considering certain cuts but if you do please offer a suggested card to cut in its stead. My blue section was the worst as I like all the cards.
I've not given reasons behind my cuts yet as I feel a lot of them aren't very contentious, but if you want to hear my thoughts on some, please ask.
Right, I pulled the trigger and made some cuts down to 360 since my cube only really sees 2 player drafts so the 450 pool was giving a bit too much variance and diluting some archetype support. Some of my cuts may seem a bit weird but I want to preserve several archetypes which aren't often supported at 360 so cuts had to be made elsewhere. However, for the most part these cuts were cards which serve to bulk out decks and either were not often played or were found to be fairly interchangeable.
One thing I'm trying to work on is giving midrange decks the tools to combat control so this reasoning will come up a few times for why I'm including some cards for a while.
Thanks to anyone who muddles through and reads my ramblings, there's a few points where advice would be very much appreciated. Especially on how I should go about supporting the UU/x tempo strategy.
List in the OP will be updated shortly.
None of these cards were high picks for us and the biggest hit may actually be Lone Missionary since he's frequently done a lot of work either against agrro or giving the WB deck a way to offset the many life payment effects in black. Ajani, Caller of the Pride is getting another test over Spear of Heliod as it also boosts creatures and provides a nice (albeit slow) ultimate to punish a control deck which can't keep it in check.
As always, blue is a pain to make cuts from and I'm not really happy with how it's shaped up. I've cut the artifact deck support and some of the more filler control cards. I want to try and keep the blue tempo package around to give it a proper test so True-Name Nemesis, Thassa and Master of Waves have stuck around as the poster children but I wasn't able to keep the supporting UU permanents which might hurt the archetype too much, time will tell.
Nothing hugely controversial here I think, I want to try and keep the pox/deathcloud decks around for a while but couldn't find room Skeleton or curse, and I'm not sure which I'd keep if I could have only 1.
Reanimator is currently looking to be a myth in my cube, I'm now running Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy and Diabolic Servitude, the first 3 are cube staples even without the combo angle, Servitude has been amazing for us as a way for midrange decks to grind out a lot of value, however black has only Grave Titan as a combo target so we have to heavily lean on artifacts or other colours for finishers. I think Entomb is still good with enough other cards to stick around for a while.
Decided that the main cuts here would be the reanimator support since, like black, red has only 1 or 2 good targets for a quick kill, and the discard outlets are often only picked if we're trying for combo reanimator. I'd have liked to keep Sneak Attack around but it doesn't seem to fit with red's game plan and I don't think it's ever hit play with us. These cuts let me keep the Purphoros-token theme around for a test, and his Hammer is being tested to see if it helps punish control decks with endless 3/3s.
Some of the ramp got thinned out along with some of the more filler midrange beaters and ramp fattier. Trying to decide if Strangelroot Geist should stay, it is a nice resilient beater and the haste can punish (my) greedy walker plays, but green isn't aggressive so maybe it's doing something which green as a whole isn't supporting.
Fairly standard list here, with blue tempo being pushed I've kept Geist and Seer around. Part of me wonders if Baleful Strix would be a better keep than Shadowmage Infiltrator since it's awesome value and I still have Tinker. Kitchen Finks is back in Selesnya since removing the green 1 drops makes Dryad Militant much more of a white card in my book so the Finks doesn't take up a green slot to balance it.
This was hard, running full power and fast mana at 360 doesn't leave many slots for the rocks at 2 and up. Some of the bigger robots have been trimmed due to no "artifact deck." The final cut was between Nev's disk and Icy, the latter won as we never seem to play the Disk and Icy can be used quite well by midrange decks to stop control's 1 finisher (especially Aetherling).
I wouldn't cut Land Tax. I think it's one of white's top 10 cards.
I also think you should keep either Reassembling Skeleton or Curse of Shallow Graves if you support Pox. I'd keep one of them over Death Cloud which is harder to use than Pox.
Rolling Earthquake should stay. It's red's best sweeper and can double as a finisher. I'd miss Sneak Attack but there may not be room at 360.
In colorless, I'd only miss the Disk which I think is pretty vital.
I'll start with saying thanks for the feedback, but now for some reasonings.
Land Tax has never done anything here, I know a bunch of folks like it but we've just never had it be good and it just keeps the sideboards warm.
I agree with the black cards, I'm looking for a cut for one of those two and I agree that Deathcloud is hard card to make work but it's one of my pets that I've been trying to make work (but it keeps not showing up). I did get it in a sweet BG deck but then my wife showed me a nuts aggro deck and it had to being sided out for a quicker answer.
Rolling Earthquake never actually made it in, I was going to add it but then tried out a morph cycle for a bit and since I hadn't gotten round to proxying up RE it was an easy cut. As I've never ran it, I'm not sure we need it, but it would help the red control decks I like. I've always wanted Sneak Attack to be good but we never seem to be able to get it and end up in a deck it's good in, it'll likely get tried out again once my list has been tested a bit more.
Yeah, I looked at 4 other 360 powered lists in addition to Eidolons comparisons, 2 run disk, 2 ran icy, maybe one ran both and one neither? Either way the disk has seen play in maybe 1 or 2 decks here in the last year so it's not likely to be missed.
Sorry if I sound a bit nay-sayey, I knew some of my cuts were unorthodox but some "staples" just don't seem to work for us. I do appreciate the thoughts. What would you cut for the non-black cards you mention?
Land Tax: Ajani, Caller of the Pride or Elspeth, Sun's Champion (or both and bring back Spear of Heliod)
Reassembling Skeleton/Curse of Shallow Graves: Murderous Redcap (move to Rakdos, cutting Spike Jester)
Rolling Earthquake: Hammer of Purphoros (I don't think this makes the cut at 450, let alone 360)
Sneak Attack: Chandra, Pyromaster
Nevinyrral's Disk: possibly Ankh of Mishra or Karn Liberated if you guys don't see a lot of ramp decks.
Imperial Recruiter is a card I'd love to add back in, one of my favourites.
Was expecting someone to mention Kor Skyfisher, he is very respectable but I believe he's expendable at this size as the Soltari 2 drops are much better evasive threats and the other 2 drops serve other functions.
I'm testing Ajani, Caller of the Pride over Spear of Heliod right now, if he under-performs then that is a likely cut.
Mystical Tutor was a casualty of trying to keep the tempo angle supported, I love the tutor in theory as it's perfect for the Upheaval/Wildfire decks I love, but it never seemed to end up in decks, maybe the smaller pool of cards would help this, finding a cut in blue is difficult though and my first re-addition would probably be Memory Lapse.
I'm with you on the Reassembling Skeleton fanclub, but given one more slot for a recursive threat and I'd lean towards giving it to Curse of Shallow Graves. It may need another body to make guys (man-lands help here) but they are zombies for Gravecrawler, have a more relevant body, don't require 2 mana to recur and help apply pressure without overextending into a wrath.
And now to rantipole.
Land Tax: Not sure what to say regarding this, we prefer both walkers to it so cutting them seems a bit weird. Part of the problem is that Tax has never done anything memorable for us, I'd had it draw me some lands a few times, but I've often had to work a bit to do so.
Reassembling Skeleton/Curse of Shallow Graves: Murderous Redcap (move to Rakdos, cutting Spike Jester) - Hmm... I could get behind this. Redcap was moved to black to balance Rakdos Cackler being in red, but it's not the end of the world if that's not the case.
Rolling Earthquake: Hammer of Purphoros (I don't think this makes the cut at 450, let alone 360) - To be honest, I agree with you but when I had 1 more card to add to red I gave my wife the pile of cuts and this was the card she suggested re-adding. She's the only person who drafts my cube regularly so I value her opinion, I'm still keeping a close eye on the Hammer as I don't really expect it to stay.
Sneak Attack: Chandra, Pyromaster - Hard one, Chandra's been decent so far and Sneak Attack's never been used. I've drafted it a few times then never drawn it. To be honest, if Hammer doesn't work out, I'd be inclined to re-include Sneak Attack over Earthquake.
Nevinyrral's Disk: possibly Ankh of Mishra or Karn Liberated if you guys don't see a lot of ramp decks. - Karn's solid, I could see Anhk being expendable but my wife likes drafts aggro decks to punish my tendency towards control and Anhk has proven unbeatable in a few games, but I guess I've also ignored it just as often. Hmm... something to mull over.
Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'm currently working offshore so not gonna get to do more testing for a while. Happy to discuss more theory and I'll post up some findings when we've played some more. I'm actually getting a 4-player draft towards the end of the month when some friends visit. I miss university when there was always half a dozen people playing magic in the union, right outside my halls.
There are several cards that were cut that I'd try to keep, but most importantly:
Land Tax MUST stay. I'd leave Ajani, Caller of the Pride out. I also really like Kor Skyfisher. Missionary and Spear are good too, but are more tolerable cuts.
I'd find room to keep Memory Lapse in. Forbid is a disgusting spell. And Mystical Tutor is a critical card that I consider to be uncuttable from any size. I'd play the Tutor at 180. I'm also a huge fan of Conclave, but that's harder to keep at a smaller size.
Reassembling Skeleton is important for the Pox deck, as is Curse of Shallow Graves, but maybe you could live without them at 360. I'd try to find room for the Skeleton though. I'm also a huge fan of Graverobber, and I'd be keeping him even at 360.
Imperial Recruiter is a sweet card for pretty much every non-aggro red deck. Firestorm and Faithless Looting are good spells if you're trying to do anything graveyard related with red (as a secondary color). Sneak Attack is a fun card, but cuts are hard at 360. But Rolling Earthquake is the best effect of its kind, and I absolutely would not cut it.
Green's cuts look good. Curse of Predation is pretty sweet though, especially if you play any kind of X/G aggro.
Supreme Verdict, Baleful Strix and Boros Charm would all be in my top 3 of their respective guilds.
Colorless cuts are tough, but probably right. I'd hate to lose both Explosives and Disk at the same time though. I'm also attached to Trike and Dust Bowl, but those are more personal choices than powerlevel ones.
Land Tax MUST stay. I'd leave Ajani, Caller of the Pride out. I also really like Kor Skyfisher. Missionary and Spear are good too, but are more tolerable cuts.
Can someone give me some examples of why Land Tax is so good? It just seems kinda durdly to us so never makes it, I can see the synergies with discard effects and pox builds and repeatable shuffles are handy but it also just seems like a lot of work for the effect. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Skyfisher does have the advantage of being ridiculous with an on colour mox which are more frequent with the small pool. Just not sure I need the extra evasive beater, even if he does block much better than the soltari bros. Will be watching this space to see if he's needed.
Agreed on Missionary and Spear. I originally went up to 450 to include more of the cards I find fun but a bit too hard to include at 360, unfortunately some of them have to come back out now.
Quote from Wtwlf »
I'd find room to keep Memory Lapse in. Forbid is a disgusting spell. And Mystical Tutor is a critical card that I consider to be uncuttable from any size. I'd play the Tutor at 180. I'm also a huge fan of Conclave, but that's harder to keep at a smaller size.
I agree on all these points but without removing the tempo/devotion cards I can't see how to fit them in and I like the idea of blue having more than just control.
Quote from Wtwlf »
Reassembling Skeleton is important for the Pox deck, as is Curse of Shallow Graves, but maybe you could live without them at 360. I'd try to find room for the Skeleton though. I'm also a huge fan of Graverobber, and I'd be keeping him even at 360.
Graverobber is an odd card for us. I love him as I've had a copy since my mate first gave me a bag of spares to introduce me to magic and he was in my first ever deck. However, for some reason my wife hates him, she cannot get her head around how he flips and keeps getting it backwards (I do wish the wording was "Then, if there are no cards..."). Even after I explain she doesn't expect him to flip very often and if he does he's looks fragile and expensive to use, I expect she'd change her mind if she saw him flip once, but for some reason he never ends up in my decks so hasn't seen play in ages. When the dust settles on 360 I'm gonna try and squeeze him back in.
I find myself in a bit of a catch 22 with the Skeleton and Curse, I know the cut should probably be Death Cloud, but if I get them too the Cloud is so much better. I like Rant's idea of moving Redcap back to Rakdos, bumping Spike Jester.
Quote from Wtwlf »
Imperial Recruiter is a sweet card for pretty much every non-aggro red deck. Firestorm and Faithless Looting are good spells if you're trying to do anything graveyard related with red (as a secondary color). Sneak Attack is a fun card, but cuts are hard at 360. But Rolling Earthquake is the best effect of its kind, and I absolutely would not cut it.
Recruiter is very nice in the decks I favour. Been having thoughts about red for a while now, during drafting it's non-burn cards stick out a bit as "aggro or ignore" which is starting to bother me. Considering cutting some of the aggro only 2 drops like Hellspark Elemental and/or Keldon Marauders for something more versatile like Kargan Dragonlord which is passable in aggro as well as being good for slower decks and Purphoros. This could also free up a slot for Recruiter. My wife did say that in the few drafts we've done since the cuts she found aggro very easy to draft, I saw more or less the entire black aggro deck pass me by once.
When I couldn't find room for Sneak Attack I decided to cut the red graveyard support (well except Squee, who rocks and does much more), The large amount of discard required for a lot of Firestorm plays makes it look dodgy (I know you love it) and Looting is only really good for the graveyard interaction. If Hammer of Purphoros doesn't do anything Sneak Attack is the likely swap.
Rolling Earthquake was never actually in my cube as I didn't have a chance to proxy it before wanting to test Akroma, Angel of Fury as an anti-control, sneak attack etc support card. I can see it being good, would replacing Bonfire of the Damned make sense?
Quote from Wtwlf »
Green's cuts look good. Curse of Predation is pretty sweet though, especially if you play any kind of X/G aggro.
Thanks, Curse does look appealing but green is only aggressive if my wife sideboards her midrange decks that way when she finds out that I'm in control. Green aggro was never drafted in the year I had the 2 power one drops in my list. Would Curse be of use in these cases?
Quote from Wtwlf »
Supreme Verdict, Baleful Strix and Boros Charm would all be in my top 3 of their respective guilds.
I put a post on the "this or that" thread comparing Verdict to Sphere and sphere won, although if memory serves I only had 2 responses. I'm running Wrath, Day of Judgment and Catastrophe which should be good enough, Sphere is a nice silver bullet and there's now more tokens in my cube. Will keep an eye on how Sphere is playing and whether I need another wrath.
Yeah I suddenly thought last night that Strix might be a better include than Shadowmage Infiltrator, although Seer's not seen much play but that could change with the extra blue tempo support.
Boros charm has only been OK for us, we've not really had much use from the double strike so it's only really got 2 modes. Stronghold is the obvious cut for it, but the land can do more than the spell, even if it does take a bit more work. Charm can win from out of nowhere and counters wraths quite nicely. Guess I'll keep an eye on the land.
Quote from Wtwlf »
Colorless cuts are tough, but probably right. I'd hate to lose both Explosives and Disk at the same time though. I'm also attached to Trike and Dust Bowl, but those are more personal choices than power level ones.
Yeah, looks rough but the removal cards weren't being played as creature decks don't want to kill their own creatures and control doesn't like blowing up it's mana rocks and enchantments.
I've been very happy with Trike but I don't think there's room for him at 360, he'd be the next creature I'd add to the section.
Dust Bowl was recent addition and hadn't been tested, is my theory that it's good in midrange against control accurate? I could see a green deck sacrificing lands reasonably well to keep control of it's finishers, especially with Life from the Loam.
Well that was a longer post than i expected. Thanks for challenging my views, it confirms which cards I need to keep an eye on in the future even if I do still want my list to be a bit off from standard 360.
Can someone give me some examples of why Land Tax is so good? It just seems kinda durdly to us so never makes it, I can see the synergies with discard effects and pox builds and repeatable shuffles are handy but it also just seems like a lot of work for the effect. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Skyfisher does have the advantage of being ridiculous with an on colour mox which are more frequent with the small pool. Just not sure I need the extra evasive beater, even if he does block much better than the soltari bros. Will be watching this space to see if he's needed.
Agreed on Missionary and Spear. I originally went up to 450 to include more of the cards I find fun but a bit too hard to include at 360, unfortunately some of them have to come back out now.
I agree on all these points but without removing the tempo/devotion cards I can't see how to fit them in and I like the idea of blue having more than just control.
Graverobber is an odd card for us. I love him as I've had a copy since my mate first gave me a bag of spares to introduce me to magic and he was in my first ever deck. However, for some reason my wife hates him, she cannot get her head around how he flips and keeps getting it backwards (I do wish the wording was "Then, if there are no cards..."). Even after I explain she doesn't expect him to flip very often and if he does he's looks fragile and expensive to use, I expect she'd change her mind if she saw him flip once, but for some reason he never ends up in my decks so hasn't seen play in ages. When the dust settles on 360 I'm gonna try and squeeze him back in.
I find myself in a bit of a catch 22 with the Skeleton and Curse, I know the cut should probably be Death Cloud, but if I get them too the Cloud is so much better. I like Rant's idea of moving Redcap back to Rakdos, bumping Spike Jester.
Recruiter is very nice in the decks I favour. Been having thoughts about red for a while now, during drafting it's non-burn cards stick out a bit as "aggro or ignore" which is starting to bother me. Considering cutting some of the aggro only 2 drops like Hellspark Elemental and/or Keldon Marauders for something more versatile like Kargan Dragonlord which is passable in aggro as well as being good for slower decks and Purphoros. This could also free up a slot for Recruiter. My wife did say that in the few drafts we've done since the cuts she found aggro very easy to draft, I saw more or less the entire black aggro deck pass me by once.
When I couldn't find room for Sneak Attack I decided to cut the red graveyard support (well except Squee, who rocks and does much more), The large amount of discard required for a lot of Firestorm plays makes it look dodgy (I know you love it) and Looting is only really good for the graveyard interaction. If Hammer of Purphoros doesn't do anything Sneak Attack is the likely swap.
Rolling Earthquake was never actually in my cube as I didn't have a chance to proxy it before wanting to test Akroma, Angel of Fury as an anti-control, sneak attack etc support card. I can see it being good, would replacing Bonfire of the Damned make sense?
Thanks, Curse does look appealing but green is only aggressive if my wife sideboards her midrange decks that way when she finds out that I'm in control. Green aggro was never drafted in the year I had the 2 power one drops in my list. Would Curse be of use in these cases?
I put a post on the "this or that" thread comparing Verdict to Sphere and sphere won, although if memory serves I only had 2 responses. I'm running Wrath, Day of Judgment and Catastrophe which should be good enough, Sphere is a nice silver bullet and there's now more tokens in my cube. Will keep an eye on how Sphere is playing and whether I need another wrath.
Yeah I suddenly thought last night that Strix might be a better include than Shadowmage Infiltrator, although Seer's not seen much play but that could change with the extra blue tempo support.
Boros charm has only been OK for us, we've not really had much use from the double strike so it's only really got 2 modes. Stronghold is the obvious cut for it, but the land can do more than the spell, even if it does take a bit more work. Charm can win from out of nowhere and counters wraths quite nicely. Guess I'll keep an eye on the land.
Yeah, looks rough but the removal cards weren't being played as creature decks don't want to kill their own creatures and control doesn't like blowing up it's mana rocks and enchantments.
I've been very happy with Trike but I don't think there's room for him at 360, he'd be the next creature I'd add to the section.
Dust Bowl was recent addition and hadn't been tested, is my theory that it's good in midrange against control accurate? I could see a green deck sacrificing lands reasonably well to keep control of it's finishers, especially with Life from the Loam.
Well that was a longer post than i expected. Thanks for challenging my views, it confirms which cards I need to keep an eye on in the future even if I do still want my list to be a bit off from standard 360.
God damnit, I just had a huge freaking response typed out for each one of your talking points and it somehow got deleted. I'm so angry right now. I'll try again tomorrow morning from my laptop instead of my iPad and hopefully it won't get lost at the touch of a wrong key. Argh!
Aww.. man, that's harsh. I'm paranoid, especially while editing my list so i frequently copy, paste and save into a text file. Probably doesn't help on an iPad I'm guessing.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll look forward to your thoughts tomorrow. Have a good night.
Can someone give me some examples of why Land Tax is so good? It just seems kinda durdly to us so never makes it, I can see the synergies with discard effects and pox builds and repeatable shuffles are handy but it also just seems like a lot of work for the effect. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
When Land Tax activates, it fixes you mana, thins you deck, and essentially draws you three cards. And once it's "live", your opponent has to miss land drops to keep it from activating. Which means it's often a 6 or even 9-for-1 in terms of card advantage. For one mana. It also ensures that you're never permanently behind in the resource battle, and punishes the players that are drawing their resources from creatures and artifacts. At the very worst, it's a 1-mana insurance policy that makes sure you never struggle against an opponent who's out-resourcing you, and at best, it's a white Ancestral variant with a much higher ceiling.
Skyfisher does have the advantage of being ridiculous with an on colour mox which are more frequent with the small pool. Just not sure I need the extra evasive beater, even if he does block much better than the soltari bros. Will be watching this space to see if he's needed.
The smaller the cube is, the easier it becomes to pair it with cheap artifact mana that makes it a potent creature for 1 mana. But in addition to those things, it also can reset damage planeswalkers, bounce ETB creatures for re-use, recharge a Gemstone Mine or similar. And the 3 toughness is relevant quite often, both in combat (defensively) and against a good quantity of early burn spells.
Agreed on Missionary and Spear. I originally went up to 450 to include more of the cards I find fun but a bit too hard to include at 360, unfortunately some of them have to come back out now.
Thy could very well be. Missionary is great in the aggro mirror, for a control speed bump, and as a target for abuse in blink/bounce types of decks. Spear is decent for token support, but is probably too hard to include at 360.
I agree on all these points but without removing the tempo/devotion cards I can't see how to fit them in and I like the idea of blue having more than just control.
Mystical Tutor is more than just a control card. It's probably the most important combo card in blue. It becomes a second copy of that Tinker/Natural Order/Balance/reanimation spell/Wildfire/Upheaval that you built your deck around. I think it's a critical component for those kinds of decks. In addition to being valuable as a Wrath tutor or to set up a sick Miracle spell.
Graverobber is an odd card for us. I love him as I've had a copy since my mate first gave me a bag of spares to introduce me to magic and he was in my first ever deck. However, for some reason my wife hates him, she cannot get her head around how he flips and keeps getting it backwards (I do wish the wording was "Then, if there are no cards..."). Even after I explain she doesn't expect him to flip very often and if he does he's looks fragile and expensive to use, I expect she'd change her mind if she saw him flip once, but for some reason he never ends up in my decks so hasn't seen play in ages. When the dust settles on 360 I'm gonna try and squeeze him back in.
Graverobber could just be a pet card of mine, but I like 2-drops that have insane ceilings like he does. It's one of the few anti-graveyard cards that is both cubeable and maindeckable. I've seen countless plays with him where he goes live after one activation, and he can just dominate games. Both by swinging for 4 on T3 against a slower deck, or by grinding creatures out of 'yards into play after he flips.
I find myself in a bit of a catch 22 with the Skeleton and Curse, I know the cut should probably be Death Cloud, but if I get them too the Cloud is so much better. I like Rant's idea of moving Redcap back to Rakdos, bumping Spike Jester.
There's a lot of tools required to make a full Pox/Stax package come together, but I've found it to be a very potent archetype.
Recruiter is very nice in the decks I favour. Been having thoughts about red for a while now, during drafting it's non-burn cards stick out a bit as "aggro or ignore" which is starting to bother me. Considering cutting some of the aggro only 2 drops like Hellspark Elemental and/or Keldon Marauders for something more versatile like Kargan Dragonlord which is passable in aggro as well as being good for slower decks and Purphoros. This could also free up a slot for Recruiter. My wife did say that in the few drafts we've done since the cuts she found aggro very easy to draft, I saw more or less the entire black aggro deck pass me by once.
And you should. It's okay for aggro cards to go late sometimes, if nobody's playing the deck. It's more important to have to tools be there when they are needed for aggro to be strong.
That being said, I think red can have a multi-faceted approach. Card advantage creatures, tutors, graveyard enablers, Wildfires and Sweepers allow red to participate in the kinds of decks that other colors are dabbling in constantly. And you can still have enough aggro dudes and burn for red to still have that be it's primary role. Recruiter is one of those cards that's important for supporting red's alternate identity. It goes in a ton of midrange/control/archetype builds and can be a major role-player in those decks.
When I couldn't find room for Sneak Attack I decided to cut the red graveyard support (well except Squee, who rocks and does much more), The large amount of discard required for a lot of Firestorm plays makes it look dodgy (I know you love it) and Looting is only really good for the graveyard interaction. If Hammer of Purphoros doesn't do anything Sneak Attack is the likely swap.
I kinda addressed this above, but I like giving red multiple identities. You won't be damaging the validity of red aggro by swapping out a few redundant effects with some unique abilities in red that gives it a non-aggro/burn interaction with the other colors.
Rolling Earthquake was never actually in my cube as I didn't have a chance to proxy it before wanting to test Akroma, Angel of Fury as an anti-control, sneak attack etc support card. I can see it being good, would replacing Bonfire of the Damned make sense?
I wouldn't. Bonfire's a pretty nasty spell. But Rolling Earthquake is probably one of red's best cards in the cube. Hitting everything is clutch, and it's mass removal and reach all rolled up into one card.
Thanks, Curse does look appealing but green is only aggressive if my wife sideboards her midrange decks that way when she finds out that I'm in control. Green aggro was never drafted in the year I had the 2 power one drops in my list. Would Curse be of use in these cases?
It hurts the strength of Curse if no green aggro is being played. I think it's a fine exclusion for you.
I put a post on the "this or that" thread comparing Verdict to Sphere and sphere won, although if memory serves I only had 2 responses. I'm running Wrath, Day of Judgment and Catastrophe which should be good enough, Sphere is a nice silver bullet and there's now more tokens in my cube. Will keep an eye on how Sphere is playing and whether I need another wrath.
Sphere shouldn't go anywhere! But I'd still have Verdict as a top 3 Azorius spell, along with Geist. Let spell-based traditional control be a thing!
Yeah I suddenly thought last night that Strix might be a better include than Shadowmage Infiltrator, although Seer's not seen much play but that could change with the extra blue tempo support.
I have 'Tog, Finkel and Strix as my top 3. The last slot can change a lot depending on what kinds of decks you wanna support in UB, but those are the three that have the greatest universal playability, IMO.
Boros charm has only been OK for us, we've not really had much use from the double strike so it's only really got 2 modes. Stronghold is the obvious cut for it, but the land can do more than the spell, even if it does take a bit more work. Charm can win from out of nowhere and counters wraths quite nicely. Guess I'll keep an eye on the land.
Even if it only has two modes ...have you read them? It makes all of your stuff indestructible, or gives you 4 damage worth of reach/planeswalker bullets. It's a bonkers 2-mana spell, and the double-strike is randomly a blow out with sword/Jitte triggers or the like.
Yeah, looks rough but the removal cards weren't being played as creature decks don't want to kill their own creatures and control doesn't like blowing up it's mana rocks and enchantments.
True enough, but in spell-heavy traditional control, it's a devastating card. Especially in the control mirror where you can wipe out all their resource/utility cards and all their threats. Combine it in a deck heavy with instants/sorceries/'walkers/manlands and watch it do some heavy lifting.
And EE is a good cheap artifact that can buy time for your control deck, wipe the board of token creatures or surgically remove a problematic permanent. I'm a fan.
Dust Bowl was recent addition and hadn't been tested, is my theory that it's good in midrange against control accurate? I could see a green deck sacrificing lands reasonably well to keep control of it's finishers, especially with Life from the Loam.
Yes, that's the place where it really shines. But it's also a great card in disruption aggro to keep people from missing that 5-drop where your first three turns of beaters close out the game. Repeatable LD that disrupts fixing and utility lands is a worthwhile effect to keep around. Especially one that's as hard to control as Dust Bowl. I mean, what are you supposed to do to stop it?
Well that was a longer post than i expected. Thanks for challenging my views, it confirms which cards I need to keep an eye on in the future even if I do still want my list to be a bit off from standard 360.
Hope that helps. The cuts from 360 are agonizing, but I just wanted to weigh in my $0.02.
Any time. I'll give this another crack on my laptop and hopefully I won't lose an enormous response and want to throw my tablet.
Thanks mate, that was a good read and some nice thought provoking points that I hadn't thought of in some cases.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
When Land Tax activates, it fixes you mana, thins you deck, and essentially draws you three cards. And once it's "live", your opponent has to miss land drops to keep it from activating. Which means it's often a 6 or even 9-for-1 in terms of card advantage. For one mana. It also ensures that you're never permanently behind in the resource battle, and punishes the players that are drawing their resources from creatures and artifacts. At the very worst, it's a 1-mana insurance policy that makes sure you never struggle against an opponent who's out-resourcing you, and at best, it's a white Ancestral variant with a much higher ceiling.
Guess this is another case of force drafting it and waiting for it to be awesome. Is there a match-up where it's bad? I can't see it doing much when your facing down an aggro deck since they can play so land light and likewise, does it do much in an aggro deck where you normally just want to keep applying pressure?
Quote from wtwlf123 »
The smaller the cube is, the easier it becomes to pair it with cheap artifact mana that makes it a potent creature for 1 mana. But in addition to those things, it also can reset damage planeswalkers, bounce ETB creatures for re-use, recharge a Gemstone Mine or similar. And the 3 toughness is relevant quite often, both in combat (defensively) and against a good quantity of early burn spells.
I had totally missed the later game interactions with this guy, just kept thinking of him as a turn 2 play which was likely to set me back a land drop and occassionally be awesome with a mox. Gah, cuts are hard.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Mystical Tutor is more than just a control card. It's probably the most important combo card in blue. It becomes a second copy of that Tinker/Natural Order/Balance/reanimation spell/Wildfire/Upheaval that you built your deck around. I think it's a critical component for those kinds of decks. In addition to being valuable as a Wrath tutor or to set up a sick Miracle spell.
Yeah, this is why I always felt it was a horrible cut. Problem is, I have no idea where to make cuts in blue while keeping the tempo/devotion cards around. I guess Tamiyo could go at 360, I know you cut her a while back, thinking about it only her +1 sees much use since using her -2 doesn't often draw enough cards for the high chance she's gonna die. She's most often seen in the heavy planeswalker control decks where she's obviously insane even if all she does is +1 to protect the team.
Edit: Crystal Shard could go for one of the blue spells, I know you like it but I think Tutor/Lapse/Forbid would see more play for us.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Graverobber could just be a pet card of mine, but I like 2-drops that have insane ceilings like he does. It's one of the few anti-graveyard cards that is both cubeable and maindeckable. I've seen countless plays with him where he goes live after one activation, and he can just dominate games. Both by swinging for 4 on T3 against a slower deck, or by grinding creatures out of 'yards into play after he flips.
Agreed, will keep an eye out for a cut. Out of interest, how has Blood Scriviner been performing for people? I got a nutty turn of Pox into Scriv which made him immediately active, and he's not been heard from since.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
There's a lot of tools required to make a full Pox/Stax package come together, but I've found it to be a very potent archetype.
Very true, and with the smaller cube it's actually tempting to break singleton and replace some of the black 1 drops with extra Gravecrawlers and maybe a 2nd Bloodghast since it would give black aggro an extra synergy with Pox and some of the new red sacrifice effects. I know it's not a popular idea here, but part of me thinks it'd be fun to test, especially since black seem to get passed over as aggro support with us, for no particular reason it seems when I ask. Red and white are just much more attractive, maybe because it easier to build with burn and Armageddons?
Quote from wtwlf123 »
And you should. It's okay for aggro cards to go late sometimes, if nobody's playing the deck. It's more important to have to tools be there when they are needed for aggro to be strong.
That being said, I think red can have a multi-faceted approach. Card advantage creatures, tutors, graveyard enablers, Wildfires and Sweepers allow red to participate in the kinds of decks that other colors are dabbling in constantly. And you can still have enough aggro dudes and burn for red to still have that be it's primary role. Recruiter is one of those cards that's important for supporting red's alternate identity. It goes in a ton of midrange/control/archetype builds and can be a major role-player in those decks.
I kinda addressed this above, but I like giving red multiple identities. You won't be damaging the validity of red aggro by swapping out a few redundant effects with some unique abilities in red that gives it a non-aggro/burn interaction with the other colors.
I asked my wife's opinion on cutting some of the dedicated aggro cards and her response was that she'd easily make do since aggro is "INCREDIBLY strong" in my cube. I wasn't aware of this as I rarely draft it myself. Guess that will help me bring back some of the cards mentioned above.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
I wouldn't. Bonfire's a pretty nasty spell. But Rolling Earthquake is probably one of red's best cards in the cube. Hitting everything is clutch, and it's mass removal and reach all rolled up into one card.
Point taken, and see previous comment.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Sphere shouldn't go anywhere! But I'd still have Verdict as a top 3 Azorius spell, along with Geist. Let spell-based traditional control be a thing!
I have 'Tog, Finkel and Strix as my top 3. The last slot can change a lot depending on what kinds of decks you wanna support in UB, but those are the three that have the greatest universal playability, IMO.
So at 360 you wouldn't run Celestial Colonnade or Creeping Tar Pit? Colonnade is nice in the same deck as Verdict since it's a decent finisher which dodges a lot of removal and doesn't take up a spell slot. Tar Pit is similar but a lot more fragile.
Even with 2 slots maybe Seer over Strix is a bit greedy since it goes in less decks. 'Tog is one of the endless debates here, love/hate. I've ran him before and he's never picked, however, one of the reasons I've switched to pancake drafting over tenchester is that now we have to "make do" with some cards since we don't get to cherry pick from almost the whole cube, as such 'Tog is more likely to get drafted and make decks.
Thing is, if I cut both man-lands I'd be sorely tempted to try out that "Utility Land Draft" idea. If it worked out for us this would have the added benefit of freeing up a few more slots in the cube to allow for some of the cards we've been discussing. But then I'd be too tempted to add both Tezzerets since we could run the artifact-based lands in the sub-draft and have the potential for the artifact deck to be possible.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Even if it only has two modes ...have you read them? It makes all of your stuff indestructible, or gives you 4 damage worth of reach/planeswalker bullets. It's a bonkers 2-mana spell, and the double-strike is randomly a blow out with sword/Jitte triggers or the like.
:-D Hehe, yeah they are pretty good. Cutting Stronghold also works with my comments above.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
True enough, but in spell-heavy traditional control, it's a devastating card. Especially in the control mirror where you can wipe out all their resource/utility cards and all their threats. Combine it in a deck heavy with instants/sorceries/'walkers/manlands and watch it do some heavy lifting.
This may be some of the issue for us as with only 2 players most of the time we rarely get control mirrors, probably because where I don't draft aggro much, the wife doesn't draft control. Though that may change as our last draft was a 3-0 beating from her playing a strong esper control deck.
Slight aside: Was a shame, I had the sweetest Jund deck, with green ramp into Plow Under, both Wildfires, Wasteland and Life from the Loam, black teamed up Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude and Volrath's Stronghold with Fauna Shaman and some good ETB guys. Unfortunately, I never saw any of the mana denial except when a Wildfire was better for her and all the bounce, counters and kill spells made short work of any engine I tried to assemble. :-(
Quote from wtwlf123 »
And EE is a good cheap artifact that can buy time for your control deck, wipe the board of token creatures or surgically remove a problematic permanent. I'm a fan.
Nobody but me would run Triskelion at 360. I just thought I'd mention him for funsies.
Comment about Triskelion made me laugh. :-D If I freed up 2 slots in the colourless section what would be your choices out of Disk, EE, Trike.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Yes, that's the place where it really shines. But it's also a great card in disruption aggro to keep people from missing that 5-drop where your first three turns of beaters close out the game. Repeatable LD that disrupts fixing and utility lands is a worthwhile effect to keep around. Especially one that's as hard to control as Dust Bowl. I mean, what are you supposed to do to stop it?
Good, glad my reason for adding it in the first place was sound.
I've enjoyed these discussions, things are kinda quiet just now on the rig and thinging out and typing these long replies certainly kills some time.
Happy cubing to you too, and anyone else who fancies chiming in.
Guess this is another case of force drafting it and waiting for it to be awesome. Is there a match-up where it's bad? I can't see it doing much when your facing down an aggro deck since they can play so land light and likewise, does it do much in an aggro deck where you normally just want to keep applying pressure?
It's not as good in aggro, and I don't always maindeck it there. In midrange, it's a baller all the time. And in control, even against aggro where it would seem the weakest, it ensures that you make your land drops, and resolve the Wrath when you have to. Missing your 4th land drop against aggro is GG.
I had totally missed the later game interactions with this guy, just kept thinking of him as a turn 2 play which was likely to set me back a land drop and occassionally be awesome with a mox. Gah, cuts are hard.
They are. I like Skyfisher because it's a cool 2-drop that has a lot of value even in the later stages of the game. It's also damn-sweet with Sarcomancy.
Yeah, this is why I always felt it was a horrible cut. Problem is, I have no idea where to make cuts in blue while keeping the tempo/devotion cards around. I guess Tamiyo could go at 360, I know you cut her a while back, thinking about it only her +1 sees much use since using her -2 doesn't often draw enough cards for the high chance she's gonna die. She's most often seen in the heavy planeswalker control decks where she's obviously insane even if all she does is +1 to protect the team.
Edit: Crystal Shard could go for one of the blue spells, I know you like it but I think Tutor/Lapse/Forbid would see more play for us.
I'd start with the Tamiyo -> Tutor swap, and test that configuration long enough to see how missed Lapse/Forbid are.
Agreed, will keep an eye out for a cut. Out of interest, how has Blood Scriviner been performing for people? I got a nutty turn of Pox into Scriv which made him immediately active, and he's not been heard from since.
Scrivener is sometimes amazing, sometimes mediocre. If I can trade my 2-mana investment for a removal spell or an X/2 creature, I feel pretty good about it. But in cases where I'm drawing cards with it, it's really good. I need reliability and consistency from my big-mana investments, but I've found myself willing to roll the dice on Scrivener because it's such a cheap cost.
Very true, and with the smaller cube it's actually tempting to break singleton and replace some of the black 1 drops with extra Gravecrawlers and maybe a 2nd Bloodghast since it would give black aggro an extra synergy with Pox and some of the new red sacrifice effects. I know it's not a popular idea here, but part of me thinks it'd be fun to test, especially since black seem to get passed over as aggro support with us, for no particular reason it seems when I ask. Red and white are just much more attractive, maybe because it easier to build with burn and Armageddons?
I find black aggro a very attractive prospect. Disruption is just as good as important as the reach and closers are, and a deck filled with Duresses and Zombies are potent.
I asked my wife's opinion on cutting some of the dedicated aggro cards and her response was that she'd easily make do since aggro is "INCREDIBLY strong" in my cube. I wasn't aware of this as I rarely draft it myself. Guess that will help me bring back some of the cards mentioned above.
Well, you know your cube better than I ever will, but I'd be hesitant to not support aggro in at least 3 colors. If the only aggro is Boros aggro, it's both underrepresented and a little mundane. Supporting black aggro alongside it triples your prospective aggro decks, and also helps tempo decks have more friends to pair up with.
So at 360 you wouldn't run Celestial Colonnade or Creeping Tar Pit?
Whoops. I always forget that 360 has to rob a gold slot for those guys. Colonnade/Geist/Sphere, Pit/'Tog/Finkel would be my go-to combination. I could see playing Strix over Finkel if you play more Dimir aggro/tempo than you do Dimir midrange/control.
This may be some of the issue for us as with only 2 players most of the time we rarely get control mirrors, probably because where I don't draft aggro much, the wife doesn't draft control. Though that may change as our last draft was a 3-0 beating from her playing a strong esper control deck.
Slight aside: Was a shame, I had the sweetest Jund deck, with green ramp into Plow Under, both Wildfires, Wasteland and Life from the Loam, black teamed up Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude and Volrath's Stronghold with Fauna Shaman and some good ETB guys. Unfortunately, I never saw any of the mana denial except when a Wildfire was better for her and all the bounce, counters and kill spells made short work of any engine I tried to assemble. :-(
Is it primarily Winston or primarily Sealed you play for your 2-man events? In Winston, I could see the lack of mirror matches being a deciding factor. But sealed deck is a mixed bag, and I'd prepare for everything there, including some cards geared towards winning mirror matches.
As am I, my wife likes playing but isn't really interested in the nittty gritty of building and balancing it.
Quote from wtwlf »
It's not as good in aggro, and I don't always maindeck it there. In midrange, it's a baller all the time. And in control, even against aggro where it would seem the weakest, it ensures that you make your land drops, and resolve the Wrath when you have to. Missing your 4th land drop against aggro is GG.
They are. I like Skyfisher because it's a cool 2-drop that has a lot of value even in the later stages of the game. It's also damn-sweet with Sarcomancy.
Fair points, lets give it another test.
Quote from wtwlf »
I'd start with the Tamiyo -> Tutor swap, and test that configuration long enough to see how missed Lapse/Forbid are.
Yeah, seems like a plan. I don't think we'll miss Forbid as such, since it's quite a recent addition and has only see play in 2 decks and it didn't show up in one of them. It was a bit soul destroying to face in the other one though.
Quote from wtwlf »
I find black aggro a very attractive prospect. Disruption is just as good as important as the reach and closers are, and a deck filled with Duresses and Zombies are potent.
Well, you know your cube better than I ever will, but I'd be hesitant to not support aggro in at least 3 colors. If the only aggro is Boros aggro, it's both underrepresented and a little mundane. Supporting black aggro alongside it triples your prospective aggro decks, and also helps tempo decks have more friends to pair up with.
Ah, slight misunderstanding here. I'm not suggesting removing black aggro support as I agree that aggro needs 3 colour support to be a viable and varied archetype otherwise it'd get dull and be too easy to get cut especially on the rare occasion we have more than 2 players since someone could open Vortex and Guide and another gets Armageddon and Thalia.
My thoughts were cutting the high damage but short term cards like Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders, since we don't like them in our midrange red decks for bodies which can perform in both decks, like Kargan Dragonlord and freeing up a slot of two for the other red strategies like Wildfire and Sneak Attack.
Quote from wtwlf »
Whoops. I always forget that 360 has to rob a gold slot for those guys. Colonnade/Geist/Sphere, Pit/'Tog/Finkel would be my go-to combination. I could see playing Strix over Finkel if you play more Dimir aggro/tempo than you do Dimir midrange/control.
Glad we agree on Azorius. I guess Dimir comes down to 'Tog as the controversial card since if I cut the Seer I'd be more inclined to include Strix alongside Finkel. But 'Tog may be worth yet another test at 360.
Quote from wtwlf »
Is it primarily Winston or primarily Sealed you play for your 2-man events? In Winston, I could see the lack of mirror matches being a deciding factor. But sealed deck is a mixed bag, and I'd prepare for everything there, including some cards geared towards winning mirror matches.
Neither. We tried sealed a few times and deckbuilding took forever, in one 3 player sealed I got a fine pool, my mate got an insane pool that could basically build a nutty deck in any colour he wanted. The wife couldn't build a decent 2 colour deck and had no fixing for adding a 3rd.
Tried Winston too but the decks were 3 and 4 colour monstrosities with very little focus. Was a good laugh but I couldn't see us enjoying it long term as archetypes are pretty hard to draft.
We started grid drafting then quickly moved on to tenchester as having full information allows us to discuss picks which helped my wife learn a lot. Before cube she'd dabbled at some casual 60 card decks and then a bit of EDH so she didn't know 90% of the cards and had never seen cube-style aggro or control before.
Tenchester also allowed us to kinda decide on a deck from pick one and 90% of the time we'd get a good version of it, this made it good for testing decks and getting a feel for what was needed to tweak things. Played this as primary method up until 3 months ago.
Since then we moved onto pancake drafting (which I know is a daft name), this has been good as it keeps information hidden, signalling comes into play a bit and it gives twice the card pool of Winston which gives more consistent decks (especially now that we see 198/360 compared to 198/450).
I think this should play out more like Winston than sealed since we don't see many mirrors, but I'll keep my eyes peeled for them.
Quote from wtwlf »
Oh man, for everyone else, Disk and EE. For me, probably Trike and EE.
Interesting that you choose EE over Disk, but then it is more of a silver bullet than a carpet bomb.
Guess I'm at the decision stage now, unfortunately it's gonna be the best part of 2 weeks before I can next draft so results and feedback are gonna be a while off.
Precursor Golem ----> Library of Alexandria
Triskelion ----> Mutavault
Engineered Explosives ----> Maze of Ith
Erratic Portal ----> Mishra's Factory
Trading Post ----> Rishadan Port
Memory Jar ----> Strip Mine
Porcelain Legionnaire ----> Wasteland
Phyrexian Metamorph ----> City of Brass
Nevinyrall's Disk ----> Gemstone Mine
Gilded Lotus ----> Grand Coliseum
I've decided to try out the Utility land draft idea and see how it plays for us. This lets me include the extra guild cards for Azorius and Dimir over the man-lands as well as giving me some wiggle room in Black and Green. Cutting the 10 lands from colourless lets me add in some fun artifacts. I can see needing to bring back the 3 5-colour lands but I actually can't remember when last they were used so I've removed them to see if we miss them.
Might not work out but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I've had a quick and brutal look at my sections and made a first draft of what cuts I think would work. I'd greatly appreciate if people could give me some feedback. My cube was originally 360 but I moved up to 450 so I could better support things like Pox, artifacts and wildfire, ideally I'd like to keep strategies like these viable at 360 but I'm not sure that's possible. My cuts remove the artifact package, preserve wildfire but I'm still short a bunch of cuts in black.
Here's my thinking so far.
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Lone Missionary
1 Karmic Guide
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Kor Haven
1 Revoke Existence
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Brainstorm
1 Forbid
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Deep Analysis
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Capsize
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Griselbrand
1 Dark Ritual
1 Chainer's Edict
1 The Abyss
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Death Cloud
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Tempt with Vengeance
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Sneak Attack
1 Ohran Viper
1 Deadbridge Goliath
1 Genesis
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Rancor
1 Awakening Zone
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Blightning
1 Xenagos the Reveler
1 Gavony Township
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Frostburn Weird
1 Boros Charm
10 Lands (Left with Duals, Shocks and Fetches
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Precursor Golem
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Erratic Portal
1 Memory Jar
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Uzra's Factory
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Undiscovered Paradise
By my counting, I still need to cut 9 cards as follows.
2 in Blue, 2 in Black, 1 in Green and 5 in Colourless.
I've no doubt made plenty of errors so feel free to tell me that I'm daft for considering certain cuts but if you do please offer a suggested card to cut in its stead. My blue section was the worst as I like all the cards.
I've not given reasons behind my cuts yet as I feel a lot of them aren't very contentious, but if you want to hear my thoughts on some, please ask.
Thanks in advance.
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One thing I'm trying to work on is giving midrange decks the tools to combat control so this reasoning will come up a few times for why I'm including some cards for a while.
Thanks to anyone who muddles through and reads my ramblings, there's a few points where advice would be very much appreciated. Especially on how I should go about supporting the UU/x tempo strategy.
List in the OP will be updated shortly.
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Lone Missionary
1 Karmic Guide
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Kor Haven
1 Land Tax
1 Revoke Existence
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Porcelain Legionnaire - from colourless
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Coralhelm Commander
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Academy Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Memory Lapse
1 Forbid
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Into the Roil
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Capsize
1 Phyrexian Metamorph - from colourless
Reanimator is currently looking to be a myth in my cube, I'm now running Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy and Diabolic Servitude, the first 3 are cube staples even without the combo angle, Servitude has been amazing for us as a way for midrange decks to grind out a lot of value, however black has only Grave Titan as a combo target so we have to heavily lean on artifacts or other colours for finishers. I think Entomb is still good with enough other cards to stick around for a while.
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Bone Shredder
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Griselbrand
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Go for the Throat
1 Curse of Shallow Graves
1 The Abyss
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Goblin Welder
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Firestorm
1 Faithless Looting
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sneak Attack
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Devoted Druid
1 Kitchen Finks - moved to Selesnya
1 Ohran Viper
1 Deadbridge Goliath
1 Vorapede
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Awakening Zone
1 Curse of Predation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Baleful Strix
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Blightning
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Armada Wurm
1 Gavony Township
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Frostburn Weird
1 Boros Charm
3 Allied non-blue man-lands
5 Enemy filter lands
1 Kitchen Finks - From Green
1 Porcelain Legionnaire - moved to White
1 Phyrexian Metamorph - moved to Blue
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Precursor Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Erratic Portal
1 Nevinyral's Disk
1 Memory Jar
1 Everflowing Challice
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Uzra's Factory
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Undiscovered Paradise
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I also think you should keep either Reassembling Skeleton or Curse of Shallow Graves if you support Pox. I'd keep one of them over Death Cloud which is harder to use than Pox.
Rolling Earthquake should stay. It's red's best sweeper and can double as a finisher. I'd miss Sneak Attack but there may not be room at 360.
In colorless, I'd only miss the Disk which I think is pretty vital.
Cheers,
rant
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Land Tax has never done anything here, I know a bunch of folks like it but we've just never had it be good and it just keeps the sideboards warm.
I agree with the black cards, I'm looking for a cut for one of those two and I agree that Deathcloud is hard card to make work but it's one of my pets that I've been trying to make work (but it keeps not showing up). I did get it in a sweet BG deck but then my wife showed me a nuts aggro deck and it had to being sided out for a quicker answer.
Rolling Earthquake never actually made it in, I was going to add it but then tried out a morph cycle for a bit and since I hadn't gotten round to proxying up RE it was an easy cut. As I've never ran it, I'm not sure we need it, but it would help the red control decks I like. I've always wanted Sneak Attack to be good but we never seem to be able to get it and end up in a deck it's good in, it'll likely get tried out again once my list has been tested a bit more.
Yeah, I looked at 4 other 360 powered lists in addition to Eidolons comparisons, 2 run disk, 2 ran icy, maybe one ran both and one neither? Either way the disk has seen play in maybe 1 or 2 decks here in the last year so it's not likely to be missed.
Sorry if I sound a bit nay-sayey, I knew some of my cuts were unorthodox but some "staples" just don't seem to work for us. I do appreciate the thoughts. What would you cut for the non-black cards you mention?
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Other cards that I really like on your cut list are Kor Sykfisher, Spear of Heliod, Mystical Tutor, Reassembling Skeleton.
Land Tax: Ajani, Caller of the Pride or Elspeth, Sun's Champion (or both and bring back Spear of Heliod)
Reassembling Skeleton/Curse of Shallow Graves: Murderous Redcap (move to Rakdos, cutting Spike Jester)
Rolling Earthquake: Hammer of Purphoros (I don't think this makes the cut at 450, let alone 360)
Sneak Attack: Chandra, Pyromaster
Nevinyrral's Disk: possibly Ankh of Mishra or Karn Liberated if you guys don't see a lot of ramp decks.
Cheers,
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Imperial Recruiter is a card I'd love to add back in, one of my favourites.
Was expecting someone to mention Kor Skyfisher, he is very respectable but I believe he's expendable at this size as the Soltari 2 drops are much better evasive threats and the other 2 drops serve other functions.
I'm testing Ajani, Caller of the Pride over Spear of Heliod right now, if he under-performs then that is a likely cut.
Mystical Tutor was a casualty of trying to keep the tempo angle supported, I love the tutor in theory as it's perfect for the Upheaval/Wildfire decks I love, but it never seemed to end up in decks, maybe the smaller pool of cards would help this, finding a cut in blue is difficult though and my first re-addition would probably be Memory Lapse.
I'm with you on the Reassembling Skeleton fanclub, but given one more slot for a recursive threat and I'd lean towards giving it to Curse of Shallow Graves. It may need another body to make guys (man-lands help here) but they are zombies for Gravecrawler, have a more relevant body, don't require 2 mana to recur and help apply pressure without overextending into a wrath.
And now to rantipole.
Land Tax: Not sure what to say regarding this, we prefer both walkers to it so cutting them seems a bit weird. Part of the problem is that Tax has never done anything memorable for us, I'd had it draw me some lands a few times, but I've often had to work a bit to do so.
Reassembling Skeleton/Curse of Shallow Graves: Murderous Redcap (move to Rakdos, cutting Spike Jester) - Hmm... I could get behind this. Redcap was moved to black to balance Rakdos Cackler being in red, but it's not the end of the world if that's not the case.
Rolling Earthquake: Hammer of Purphoros (I don't think this makes the cut at 450, let alone 360) - To be honest, I agree with you but when I had 1 more card to add to red I gave my wife the pile of cuts and this was the card she suggested re-adding. She's the only person who drafts my cube regularly so I value her opinion, I'm still keeping a close eye on the Hammer as I don't really expect it to stay.
Sneak Attack: Chandra, Pyromaster - Hard one, Chandra's been decent so far and Sneak Attack's never been used. I've drafted it a few times then never drawn it. To be honest, if Hammer doesn't work out, I'd be inclined to re-include Sneak Attack over Earthquake.
Nevinyrral's Disk: possibly Ankh of Mishra or Karn Liberated if you guys don't see a lot of ramp decks. - Karn's solid, I could see Anhk being expendable but my wife likes drafts aggro decks to punish my tendency towards control and Anhk has proven unbeatable in a few games, but I guess I've also ignored it just as often. Hmm... something to mull over.
Thanks for the thoughts guys, I'm currently working offshore so not gonna get to do more testing for a while. Happy to discuss more theory and I'll post up some findings when we've played some more. I'm actually getting a 4-player draft towards the end of the month when some friends visit. I miss university when there was always half a dozen people playing magic in the union, right outside my halls.
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Land Tax MUST stay. I'd leave Ajani, Caller of the Pride out. I also really like Kor Skyfisher. Missionary and Spear are good too, but are more tolerable cuts.
I'd find room to keep Memory Lapse in. Forbid is a disgusting spell. And Mystical Tutor is a critical card that I consider to be uncuttable from any size. I'd play the Tutor at 180. I'm also a huge fan of Conclave, but that's harder to keep at a smaller size.
Reassembling Skeleton is important for the Pox deck, as is Curse of Shallow Graves, but maybe you could live without them at 360. I'd try to find room for the Skeleton though. I'm also a huge fan of Graverobber, and I'd be keeping him even at 360.
Imperial Recruiter is a sweet card for pretty much every non-aggro red deck. Firestorm and Faithless Looting are good spells if you're trying to do anything graveyard related with red (as a secondary color). Sneak Attack is a fun card, but cuts are hard at 360. But Rolling Earthquake is the best effect of its kind, and I absolutely would not cut it.
Green's cuts look good. Curse of Predation is pretty sweet though, especially if you play any kind of X/G aggro.
Supreme Verdict, Baleful Strix and Boros Charm would all be in my top 3 of their respective guilds.
Colorless cuts are tough, but probably right. I'd hate to lose both Explosives and Disk at the same time though. I'm also attached to Trike and Dust Bowl, but those are more personal choices than powerlevel ones.
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Can someone give me some examples of why Land Tax is so good? It just seems kinda durdly to us so never makes it, I can see the synergies with discard effects and pox builds and repeatable shuffles are handy but it also just seems like a lot of work for the effect. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Skyfisher does have the advantage of being ridiculous with an on colour mox which are more frequent with the small pool. Just not sure I need the extra evasive beater, even if he does block much better than the soltari bros. Will be watching this space to see if he's needed.
Agreed on Missionary and Spear. I originally went up to 450 to include more of the cards I find fun but a bit too hard to include at 360, unfortunately some of them have to come back out now.
I agree on all these points but without removing the tempo/devotion cards I can't see how to fit them in and I like the idea of blue having more than just control.
Graverobber is an odd card for us. I love him as I've had a copy since my mate first gave me a bag of spares to introduce me to magic and he was in my first ever deck. However, for some reason my wife hates him, she cannot get her head around how he flips and keeps getting it backwards (I do wish the wording was "Then, if there are no cards..."). Even after I explain she doesn't expect him to flip very often and if he does he's looks fragile and expensive to use, I expect she'd change her mind if she saw him flip once, but for some reason he never ends up in my decks so hasn't seen play in ages. When the dust settles on 360 I'm gonna try and squeeze him back in.
I find myself in a bit of a catch 22 with the Skeleton and Curse, I know the cut should probably be Death Cloud, but if I get them too the Cloud is so much better. I like Rant's idea of moving Redcap back to Rakdos, bumping Spike Jester.
Recruiter is very nice in the decks I favour. Been having thoughts about red for a while now, during drafting it's non-burn cards stick out a bit as "aggro or ignore" which is starting to bother me. Considering cutting some of the aggro only 2 drops like Hellspark Elemental and/or Keldon Marauders for something more versatile like Kargan Dragonlord which is passable in aggro as well as being good for slower decks and Purphoros. This could also free up a slot for Recruiter. My wife did say that in the few drafts we've done since the cuts she found aggro very easy to draft, I saw more or less the entire black aggro deck pass me by once.
When I couldn't find room for Sneak Attack I decided to cut the red graveyard support (well except Squee, who rocks and does much more), The large amount of discard required for a lot of Firestorm plays makes it look dodgy (I know you love it) and Looting is only really good for the graveyard interaction. If Hammer of Purphoros doesn't do anything Sneak Attack is the likely swap.
Rolling Earthquake was never actually in my cube as I didn't have a chance to proxy it before wanting to test Akroma, Angel of Fury as an anti-control, sneak attack etc support card. I can see it being good, would replacing Bonfire of the Damned make sense?
Thanks, Curse does look appealing but green is only aggressive if my wife sideboards her midrange decks that way when she finds out that I'm in control. Green aggro was never drafted in the year I had the 2 power one drops in my list. Would Curse be of use in these cases?
I put a post on the "this or that" thread comparing Verdict to Sphere and sphere won, although if memory serves I only had 2 responses. I'm running Wrath, Day of Judgment and Catastrophe which should be good enough, Sphere is a nice silver bullet and there's now more tokens in my cube. Will keep an eye on how Sphere is playing and whether I need another wrath.
Yeah I suddenly thought last night that Strix might be a better include than Shadowmage Infiltrator, although Seer's not seen much play but that could change with the extra blue tempo support.
Boros charm has only been OK for us, we've not really had much use from the double strike so it's only really got 2 modes. Stronghold is the obvious cut for it, but the land can do more than the spell, even if it does take a bit more work. Charm can win from out of nowhere and counters wraths quite nicely. Guess I'll keep an eye on the land.
Yeah, looks rough but the removal cards weren't being played as creature decks don't want to kill their own creatures and control doesn't like blowing up it's mana rocks and enchantments.
I've been very happy with Trike but I don't think there's room for him at 360, he'd be the next creature I'd add to the section.
Dust Bowl was recent addition and hadn't been tested, is my theory that it's good in midrange against control accurate? I could see a green deck sacrificing lands reasonably well to keep control of it's finishers, especially with Life from the Loam.
Well that was a longer post than i expected. Thanks for challenging my views, it confirms which cards I need to keep an eye on in the future even if I do still want my list to be a bit off from standard 360.
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God damnit, I just had a huge freaking response typed out for each one of your talking points and it somehow got deleted. I'm so angry right now. I'll try again tomorrow morning from my laptop instead of my iPad and hopefully it won't get lost at the touch of a wrong key. Argh!
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Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll look forward to your thoughts tomorrow. Have a good night.
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Any time. I'll give this another crack on my laptop and hopefully I won't lose an enormous response and want to throw my tablet.
When Land Tax activates, it fixes you mana, thins you deck, and essentially draws you three cards. And once it's "live", your opponent has to miss land drops to keep it from activating. Which means it's often a 6 or even 9-for-1 in terms of card advantage. For one mana. It also ensures that you're never permanently behind in the resource battle, and punishes the players that are drawing their resources from creatures and artifacts. At the very worst, it's a 1-mana insurance policy that makes sure you never struggle against an opponent who's out-resourcing you, and at best, it's a white Ancestral variant with a much higher ceiling.
The smaller the cube is, the easier it becomes to pair it with cheap artifact mana that makes it a potent creature for 1 mana. But in addition to those things, it also can reset damage planeswalkers, bounce ETB creatures for re-use, recharge a Gemstone Mine or similar. And the 3 toughness is relevant quite often, both in combat (defensively) and against a good quantity of early burn spells.
Thy could very well be. Missionary is great in the aggro mirror, for a control speed bump, and as a target for abuse in blink/bounce types of decks. Spear is decent for token support, but is probably too hard to include at 360.
Mystical Tutor is more than just a control card. It's probably the most important combo card in blue. It becomes a second copy of that Tinker/Natural Order/Balance/reanimation spell/Wildfire/Upheaval that you built your deck around. I think it's a critical component for those kinds of decks. In addition to being valuable as a Wrath tutor or to set up a sick Miracle spell.
Graverobber could just be a pet card of mine, but I like 2-drops that have insane ceilings like he does. It's one of the few anti-graveyard cards that is both cubeable and maindeckable. I've seen countless plays with him where he goes live after one activation, and he can just dominate games. Both by swinging for 4 on T3 against a slower deck, or by grinding creatures out of 'yards into play after he flips.
There's a lot of tools required to make a full Pox/Stax package come together, but I've found it to be a very potent archetype.
And you should. It's okay for aggro cards to go late sometimes, if nobody's playing the deck. It's more important to have to tools be there when they are needed for aggro to be strong.
That being said, I think red can have a multi-faceted approach. Card advantage creatures, tutors, graveyard enablers, Wildfires and Sweepers allow red to participate in the kinds of decks that other colors are dabbling in constantly. And you can still have enough aggro dudes and burn for red to still have that be it's primary role. Recruiter is one of those cards that's important for supporting red's alternate identity. It goes in a ton of midrange/control/archetype builds and can be a major role-player in those decks.
I kinda addressed this above, but I like giving red multiple identities. You won't be damaging the validity of red aggro by swapping out a few redundant effects with some unique abilities in red that gives it a non-aggro/burn interaction with the other colors.
I wouldn't. Bonfire's a pretty nasty spell. But Rolling Earthquake is probably one of red's best cards in the cube. Hitting everything is clutch, and it's mass removal and reach all rolled up into one card.
It hurts the strength of Curse if no green aggro is being played. I think it's a fine exclusion for you.
Sphere shouldn't go anywhere! But I'd still have Verdict as a top 3 Azorius spell, along with Geist. Let spell-based traditional control be a thing!
I have 'Tog, Finkel and Strix as my top 3. The last slot can change a lot depending on what kinds of decks you wanna support in UB, but those are the three that have the greatest universal playability, IMO.
Even if it only has two modes ...have you read them? It makes all of your stuff indestructible, or gives you 4 damage worth of reach/planeswalker bullets. It's a bonkers 2-mana spell, and the double-strike is randomly a blow out with sword/Jitte triggers or the like.
True enough, but in spell-heavy traditional control, it's a devastating card. Especially in the control mirror where you can wipe out all their resource/utility cards and all their threats. Combine it in a deck heavy with instants/sorceries/'walkers/manlands and watch it do some heavy lifting.
And EE is a good cheap artifact that can buy time for your control deck, wipe the board of token creatures or surgically remove a problematic permanent. I'm a fan.
Nobody but me would run Triskelion at 360. I just thought I'd mention him for funsies.
Yes, that's the place where it really shines. But it's also a great card in disruption aggro to keep people from missing that 5-drop where your first three turns of beaters close out the game. Repeatable LD that disrupts fixing and utility lands is a worthwhile effect to keep around. Especially one that's as hard to control as Dust Bowl. I mean, what are you supposed to do to stop it?
Hope that helps. The cuts from 360 are agonizing, but I just wanted to weigh in my $0.02.
Cheers, and happy cubing!
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Thanks mate, that was a good read and some nice thought provoking points that I hadn't thought of in some cases.
Guess this is another case of force drafting it and waiting for it to be awesome. Is there a match-up where it's bad? I can't see it doing much when your facing down an aggro deck since they can play so land light and likewise, does it do much in an aggro deck where you normally just want to keep applying pressure?
I had totally missed the later game interactions with this guy, just kept thinking of him as a turn 2 play which was likely to set me back a land drop and occassionally be awesome with a mox. Gah, cuts are hard.
Yeah, this is why I always felt it was a horrible cut. Problem is, I have no idea where to make cuts in blue while keeping the tempo/devotion cards around. I guess Tamiyo could go at 360, I know you cut her a while back, thinking about it only her +1 sees much use since using her -2 doesn't often draw enough cards for the high chance she's gonna die. She's most often seen in the heavy planeswalker control decks where she's obviously insane even if all she does is +1 to protect the team.
Edit: Crystal Shard could go for one of the blue spells, I know you like it but I think Tutor/Lapse/Forbid would see more play for us.
Agreed, will keep an eye out for a cut. Out of interest, how has Blood Scriviner been performing for people? I got a nutty turn of Pox into Scriv which made him immediately active, and he's not been heard from since.
Very true, and with the smaller cube it's actually tempting to break singleton and replace some of the black 1 drops with extra Gravecrawlers and maybe a 2nd Bloodghast since it would give black aggro an extra synergy with Pox and some of the new red sacrifice effects. I know it's not a popular idea here, but part of me thinks it'd be fun to test, especially since black seem to get passed over as aggro support with us, for no particular reason it seems when I ask. Red and white are just much more attractive, maybe because it easier to build with burn and Armageddons?
I asked my wife's opinion on cutting some of the dedicated aggro cards and her response was that she'd easily make do since aggro is "INCREDIBLY strong" in my cube. I wasn't aware of this as I rarely draft it myself. Guess that will help me bring back some of the cards mentioned above.
Point taken, and see previous comment.
So at 360 you wouldn't run Celestial Colonnade or Creeping Tar Pit? Colonnade is nice in the same deck as Verdict since it's a decent finisher which dodges a lot of removal and doesn't take up a spell slot. Tar Pit is similar but a lot more fragile.
Even with 2 slots maybe Seer over Strix is a bit greedy since it goes in less decks. 'Tog is one of the endless debates here, love/hate. I've ran him before and he's never picked, however, one of the reasons I've switched to pancake drafting over tenchester is that now we have to "make do" with some cards since we don't get to cherry pick from almost the whole cube, as such 'Tog is more likely to get drafted and make decks.
Thing is, if I cut both man-lands I'd be sorely tempted to try out that "Utility Land Draft" idea. If it worked out for us this would have the added benefit of freeing up a few more slots in the cube to allow for some of the cards we've been discussing. But then I'd be too tempted to add both Tezzerets since we could run the artifact-based lands in the sub-draft and have the potential for the artifact deck to be possible.
:-D Hehe, yeah they are pretty good. Cutting Stronghold also works with my comments above.
This may be some of the issue for us as with only 2 players most of the time we rarely get control mirrors, probably because where I don't draft aggro much, the wife doesn't draft control. Though that may change as our last draft was a 3-0 beating from her playing a strong esper control deck.
Slight aside: Was a shame, I had the sweetest Jund deck, with green ramp into Plow Under, both Wildfires, Wasteland and Life from the Loam, black teamed up Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude and Volrath's Stronghold with Fauna Shaman and some good ETB guys. Unfortunately, I never saw any of the mana denial except when a Wildfire was better for her and all the bounce, counters and kill spells made short work of any engine I tried to assemble. :-(
Comment about Triskelion made me laugh. :-D If I freed up 2 slots in the colourless section what would be your choices out of Disk, EE, Trike.
Good, glad my reason for adding it in the first place was sound.
I've enjoyed these discussions, things are kinda quiet just now on the rig and thinging out and typing these long replies certainly kills some time.
Happy cubing to you too, and anyone else who fancies chiming in.
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Always glad to talk cube.
It's not as good in aggro, and I don't always maindeck it there. In midrange, it's a baller all the time. And in control, even against aggro where it would seem the weakest, it ensures that you make your land drops, and resolve the Wrath when you have to. Missing your 4th land drop against aggro is GG.
They are. I like Skyfisher because it's a cool 2-drop that has a lot of value even in the later stages of the game. It's also damn-sweet with Sarcomancy.
I'd start with the Tamiyo -> Tutor swap, and test that configuration long enough to see how missed Lapse/Forbid are.
Scrivener is sometimes amazing, sometimes mediocre. If I can trade my 2-mana investment for a removal spell or an X/2 creature, I feel pretty good about it. But in cases where I'm drawing cards with it, it's really good. I need reliability and consistency from my big-mana investments, but I've found myself willing to roll the dice on Scrivener because it's such a cheap cost.
I find black aggro a very attractive prospect. Disruption is just as good as important as the reach and closers are, and a deck filled with Duresses and Zombies are potent.
Well, you know your cube better than I ever will, but I'd be hesitant to not support aggro in at least 3 colors. If the only aggro is Boros aggro, it's both underrepresented and a little mundane. Supporting black aggro alongside it triples your prospective aggro decks, and also helps tempo decks have more friends to pair up with.
Whoops. I always forget that 360 has to rob a gold slot for those guys. Colonnade/Geist/Sphere, Pit/'Tog/Finkel would be my go-to combination. I could see playing Strix over Finkel if you play more Dimir aggro/tempo than you do Dimir midrange/control.
I would definitely cut SS to keep Boros Charm in. It's nowhere near as good as Colonnade/Pit are.
Is it primarily Winston or primarily Sealed you play for your 2-man events? In Winston, I could see the lack of mirror matches being a deciding factor. But sealed deck is a mixed bag, and I'd prepare for everything there, including some cards geared towards winning mirror matches.
Oh man, for everyone else, Disk and EE. For me, probably Trike and EE.
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As am I, my wife likes playing but isn't really interested in the nittty gritty of building and balancing it.
Fair points, lets give it another test.
Yeah, seems like a plan. I don't think we'll miss Forbid as such, since it's quite a recent addition and has only see play in 2 decks and it didn't show up in one of them. It was a bit soul destroying to face in the other one though.
Ah, slight misunderstanding here. I'm not suggesting removing black aggro support as I agree that aggro needs 3 colour support to be a viable and varied archetype otherwise it'd get dull and be too easy to get cut especially on the rare occasion we have more than 2 players since someone could open Vortex and Guide and another gets Armageddon and Thalia.
My thoughts were cutting the high damage but short term cards like Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders, since we don't like them in our midrange red decks for bodies which can perform in both decks, like Kargan Dragonlord and freeing up a slot of two for the other red strategies like Wildfire and Sneak Attack.
Glad we agree on Azorius. I guess Dimir comes down to 'Tog as the controversial card since if I cut the Seer I'd be more inclined to include Strix alongside Finkel. But 'Tog may be worth yet another test at 360.
Neither. We tried sealed a few times and deckbuilding took forever, in one 3 player sealed I got a fine pool, my mate got an insane pool that could basically build a nutty deck in any colour he wanted. The wife couldn't build a decent 2 colour deck and had no fixing for adding a 3rd.
Tried Winston too but the decks were 3 and 4 colour monstrosities with very little focus. Was a good laugh but I couldn't see us enjoying it long term as archetypes are pretty hard to draft.
We started grid drafting then quickly moved on to tenchester as having full information allows us to discuss picks which helped my wife learn a lot. Before cube she'd dabbled at some casual 60 card decks and then a bit of EDH so she didn't know 90% of the cards and had never seen cube-style aggro or control before.
Tenchester also allowed us to kinda decide on a deck from pick one and 90% of the time we'd get a good version of it, this made it good for testing decks and getting a feel for what was needed to tweak things. Played this as primary method up until 3 months ago.
Since then we moved onto pancake drafting (which I know is a daft name), this has been good as it keeps information hidden, signalling comes into play a bit and it gives twice the card pool of Winston which gives more consistent decks (especially now that we see 198/360 compared to 198/450).
I think this should play out more like Winston than sealed since we don't see many mirrors, but I'll keep my eyes peeled for them.
Interesting that you choose EE over Disk, but then it is more of a silver bullet than a carpet bomb.
Guess I'm at the decision stage now, unfortunately it's gonna be the best part of 2 weeks before I can next draft so results and feedback are gonna be a while off.
Thanks again and take care.
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Kor Skyfisher ----> Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Land Tax ----> Porcelain Legionnaire
Mystical Tutor ----> Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Memory Laspe ----> Phyrexian Metamorph
Tezzeret the Seeker ----> Crystal Shard
Nezumi Graverobber ----> Murderous Redcap
Reassembling Skeleton ----> Volrath's Stronghold
Curse of Shallow Graves ----> Inquisition of Kozilek
Goblin Welder ----> Rakdos Cackler
Kargan Dragonlord ----> Hellspark Elemental
Imperial Recruiter ----> Keldon Marauders
Firestorm ----> Hammer of Purphoros
Sneak Attack ----> Searing Spear
Rolling Earthquake ----> Arc Lightning
Nostalgic Dreams ----> Treetop Village
Supreme Verdict ----> Celestial Colonnade
Baleful Strix ----> Creeping Tar Pit
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas ----> Duskmantle Seer
Murderous Redcap ----> Spike Jester
Rakdos Cackler ----> Falkenrath Aristocrat
Boros Charm ----> Slayers' Stronghold
Precursor Golem ----> Library of Alexandria
Triskelion ----> Mutavault
Engineered Explosives ----> Maze of Ith
Erratic Portal ----> Mishra's Factory
Trading Post ----> Rishadan Port
Memory Jar ----> Strip Mine
Porcelain Legionnaire ----> Wasteland
Phyrexian Metamorph ----> City of Brass
Nevinyrall's Disk ----> Gemstone Mine
Gilded Lotus ----> Grand Coliseum
I've decided to try out the Utility land draft idea and see how it plays for us. This lets me include the extra guild cards for Azorius and Dimir over the man-lands as well as giving me some wiggle room in Black and Green. Cutting the 10 lands from colourless lets me add in some fun artifacts. I can see needing to bring back the 3 5-colour lands but I actually can't remember when last they were used so I've removed them to see if we miss them.
Might not work out but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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