Prismari Command is so good that I proxied one up and added it into the cube early. Check in with the CubeCobra list for updates!
It looks like a pretty cool card.
I will have to add that I'm a bit disappointed that storm has been cut from your cube - cards like Black Lotus and Time Spiral lose a bit of excitement for me ...
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Do you have a visual spoiler/pictures of your cube anywhere? I remember you having a lot of cool altered art which is why I ask.
I just added scans to my CubeCobra list of all the cards that have custom art. I didn't do my regular extended alters or my signed cards, just my custom art alters for now. But give it a look! https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/wtwlf123?view=spoiler
I wanted to take a minute to discuss the Signet vs Talisman debate and explain my position on why I'm going with Signets at the moment. Lets discuss the pros:
Talisman
+ They tap for mana on their own. (So if you tap out for a Talisman, you can still use it that turn to generate a mana.)
+ They split their mana effectively between turns and phases. (You don't have to add/spend both colors of mana at once.)
+ They tap for C. (If this is important for your cube design, the Talisman have a HUGE advantage.)
The first pro is especially important in midrange decks loaded with cheap spells, since you can spend your second turn ramping and still have a mana leftover to cast a Bolt or a Duress or an Elf or whatever else. It's valuable to get access to the mana in every deck, but it's especially critical in these kinds of shells since they're more likely to be paired with a cheap spell that is worthwhile to play immediately.
The second pro is important in decks that have a heavy mix of proactive spells and reactive spells. Using two Swamps and a Talisman to cast a Hymn to Tourach and hold up Force Spike is not something you can do with Dimir Signet, since you have to add the blue and black mana independently.
The third pro is a big deal in cubes that support colorless-matters cards. Your Thought-Knot Seers and Reality Smashers will love the access to 10 additional sources of colorless mana.
Signets
+ They are powerful in 3+ color decks; especially those splashing strong gold cards. (Using Plains, Plains, Simic Signet to cast Oko in a Bant deck is helpful.)
+ They don't deal any damage to you. (In aggro-heavy cubes and cubes with a lot of other painful mana fixing, it can add up fast.)
+ You can convert colorless mana to colored mana. (Basic + Mutavault + Signet can make 3 colored mana.)
The first pro here is a pretty big deal in 3-5 color decks, since you can convert extra mana of an unneeded color into two potentially useful colors of mana. Being able to cast a T3feri off of a pair of Swamps and an Azorius Signet is most welcome.
While the damage isn't particularly significant on its own, mana fixing is becoming more painful. Between Shocks, Fetches, Horizon Lands and/or Pain Lands, + City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Prismatic Vista, etc... it can start to hurt. In matchups against aggressive decks, the extra self damage can really add up. And with a choice between painful untapped lands and painful mana rocks, I think it's more important to make the rocks painless since they're less likely to be played in aggressive decks that can ignore the drawback.
The third upside can show up sometimes, and you can convert the colorless mana your Library taps for into useful colored mana on the turn where you decide to start casting spells. Being able to Hymn + Ponder off of a Mishra's Factory, a Swamp and a Signet feels really good.
Overall, I think Talisman are better cards in a head-to-head comparison. But once factoring in all the context from my cube, I think the upsides on the Signets are more important right now. This probably won't be the case forever, but between losing some of the 3+ color support in the trim to 450, it's nice to throw those multicolor control decks a bone. Not to mention the fact that most of my guilds are using a manabase where 66% of the guild lands are self-damaging, and it's nice to not get pinged by your own mana rocks to boot. All that being said, Talisman are great, and they're definitely better cards in cubes that play a lot of midrange decks loaded with cheap spells, and they're also awesome for cubes that limit the amount of self-damage that comes from their own lands. Each cube manager should make the decision based off of the context of their cube/group and use the rock suite that best suits their wants and needs.
Doing some comparing of your 450 choices and noticed that Dark Ritual didn't make the cut at 450. Just doesn't fit any of the relevant themes you're trying to support?
I don't want to lead guest drafters down a rabbit-hole looking for storm support after they scoop up Rituals and Wills only to find out its not supported. I like the card a lot even without that deck, but it's on the bench for now while everything settles in.
I don't want to lead guest drafters down a rabbit-hole looking for storm support after they scoop up Rituals and Wills only to find out its not supported. I like the card a lot even without that deck, but it's on the bench for now while everything settles in.
I could see that. I'm not saying I disagree with your choice, but I personally associated Time Spiral more closely with storm/ high tide than Dark Ritual. I've seen Dark Ritual played a lot more in aggressive black strategies/ reanimator strategies than storm.
I would like to return to your decision a month ago to cut your cube down from 720 to 450 card - I've really love the change. It offers a very different play style that focuses more on tight play rather than assembling archetypes/ unfair decks. I've rarely played midrange/ control strategies in constructed and I've learned to appreciate the complexity of navigating complex midrange board states and playing around various removal effects.
My play group is considering switching it up once in a while between various cube sizes - 450 (Competitive Draft), 720 (Regular Causal), 1000+ (Exploration - Wild new cards + archetypes)
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
While some of these cards do get a fair bit worse with the removal of combo, my impression is that they are strong enough to stand on their own two feet even without combo (could be wrong of course!). Also surprised Fact or Fiction isn't in your list, I guess that was cut a while back?
Wanted to pick your brain on your old 720 cube. I’ve seen lists running Mishra’z Workshop (even the 540 MTGO Vintage cube runs this), Nether Void, The Abyss, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Any reason you avoided these powerhouse cards in your cube when it was bigger? Thanks for all your hard work!
Wanted to pick your brain on your old 720 cube. I’ve seen lists running Mishra’z Workshop (even the 540 MTGO Vintage cube runs this), Nether Void, The Abyss, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Any reason you avoided these powerhouse cards in your cube when it was bigger? Thanks for all your hard work!
Those cards never panned out for me in the long run. I've cubed all of them, but none of them stuck around.
Do you run cards in here just for Nostalgia's sake? I can't help but look at some of these cards and feel that there are more powerful options (for similar effects) in their given slot. I don't think there's an issue with running cards you like just because you like them, and I don't want to insinuate that at all. I was just wondering if Nostalgia is a factor in your card choice decisions.
No. All of the cards are in because they compete for their slot and win out.
How are you making that destinction? I look at cards such as Exalted Angel, Psychatog, and Kessig Prowler, and can't help but feel that there are better options for those slots in 2021. They would have made sense as additions back when they were added, but by now, they show their age.
What do you mean how am I making that distinction? I play with those cards instead of other ones because they perform better for my playgroup.
If you don't like them, don't run them. Do whatever you want with your own cube.
Newer ≠ better. All of those you mentioned do things that their competitors can't do, and they're more valuable to me because of those advantages. You don't have to agree, but all of the cards I use are played because I believe they're the best cards for the job(s) I'm tasking them to do.
What do you mean how am I making that distinction? I play with those cards instead of other ones because they perform better for my playgroup. Newer =/= better. All of those you mentioned do things that their competitors can't do, and they're more valuable to me because of those advantages. You don't have to agree, but all of the cards I use are played because I believe they're the best cards for the job(s) I'm tasking them to do.
I agree that newer doesn't equal better. I guess the real question I'm trying to ask is what do you want these cards to do and why do they outcompete other cards in their class? Is what your playgroup subjectively enjoys a factor into your card choices, or are you basing everything on objective power level/synergy considerations?
I'm not trying to offend you or anything. I just wanted to pick your brain a little bit to better understand how you evaluate cards and make choices about what you add or exclude from your cube.
What card in particular do you have questions about? Remember that comparing a card head to head takes more than looking at raw powerlevel. It also has to do with fit, role, and slot equity. Exalted Angel, for example, is a card that's a win condition for Moat decks, a creature that survives Wildfire, a creature that can hit hard when flipped on-curve, and a creature that can be cast/protected on the cheap. No other card can fill all of those roles while only taking up one slot in the cube. Psychatog is not just a win-con for control decks. It has synergy with the draw-7 combo decks, it can be cast/protected cheap in the same round of turns, it functions as a discard outlet, and it's one of the only creatures that can end the game in a single swing for 3 mana. Other cards are better at one of those jobs, but in order to replace all of the functions he serves, I would need to consume several slots. So make sure that slot equity, role, function, etc. are all being considered when deciding whether or not a card can be removed for something that's better than it at one job.
All the cards serve a specific purpose, and it's usually slotting into multiple places. If you have questions about how some are used, ask. It's better than assuming that cards are simply in there because the cube manager is nostalgic about them, and calling them out as being past their prime.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
It looks like a pretty cool card.
I will have to add that I'm a bit disappointed that storm has been cut from your cube - cards like Black Lotus and Time Spiral lose a bit of excitement for me ...
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I just added scans to my CubeCobra list of all the cards that have custom art. I didn't do my regular extended alters or my signed cards, just my custom art alters for now. But give it a look! https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/wtwlf123?view=spoiler
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Talisman
+ They tap for mana on their own. (So if you tap out for a Talisman, you can still use it that turn to generate a mana.)
+ They split their mana effectively between turns and phases. (You don't have to add/spend both colors of mana at once.)
+ They tap for C. (If this is important for your cube design, the Talisman have a HUGE advantage.)
The first pro is especially important in midrange decks loaded with cheap spells, since you can spend your second turn ramping and still have a mana leftover to cast a Bolt or a Duress or an Elf or whatever else. It's valuable to get access to the mana in every deck, but it's especially critical in these kinds of shells since they're more likely to be paired with a cheap spell that is worthwhile to play immediately.
The second pro is important in decks that have a heavy mix of proactive spells and reactive spells. Using two Swamps and a Talisman to cast a Hymn to Tourach and hold up Force Spike is not something you can do with Dimir Signet, since you have to add the blue and black mana independently.
The third pro is a big deal in cubes that support colorless-matters cards. Your Thought-Knot Seers and Reality Smashers will love the access to 10 additional sources of colorless mana.
Signets
+ They are powerful in 3+ color decks; especially those splashing strong gold cards. (Using Plains, Plains, Simic Signet to cast Oko in a Bant deck is helpful.)
+ They don't deal any damage to you. (In aggro-heavy cubes and cubes with a lot of other painful mana fixing, it can add up fast.)
+ You can convert colorless mana to colored mana. (Basic + Mutavault + Signet can make 3 colored mana.)
The first pro here is a pretty big deal in 3-5 color decks, since you can convert extra mana of an unneeded color into two potentially useful colors of mana. Being able to cast a T3feri off of a pair of Swamps and an Azorius Signet is most welcome.
While the damage isn't particularly significant on its own, mana fixing is becoming more painful. Between Shocks, Fetches, Horizon Lands and/or Pain Lands, + City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Prismatic Vista, etc... it can start to hurt. In matchups against aggressive decks, the extra self damage can really add up. And with a choice between painful untapped lands and painful mana rocks, I think it's more important to make the rocks painless since they're less likely to be played in aggressive decks that can ignore the drawback.
The third upside can show up sometimes, and you can convert the colorless mana your Library taps for into useful colored mana on the turn where you decide to start casting spells. Being able to Hymn + Ponder off of a Mishra's Factory, a Swamp and a Signet feels really good.
Overall, I think Talisman are better cards in a head-to-head comparison. But once factoring in all the context from my cube, I think the upsides on the Signets are more important right now. This probably won't be the case forever, but between losing some of the 3+ color support in the trim to 450, it's nice to throw those multicolor control decks a bone. Not to mention the fact that most of my guilds are using a manabase where 66% of the guild lands are self-damaging, and it's nice to not get pinged by your own mana rocks to boot. All that being said, Talisman are great, and they're definitely better cards in cubes that play a lot of midrange decks loaded with cheap spells, and they're also awesome for cubes that limit the amount of self-damage that comes from their own lands. Each cube manager should make the decision based off of the context of their cube/group and use the rock suite that best suits their wants and needs.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/821427-set-p-review-my-top-20-strixhaven-stx-cards-for
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I could see that. I'm not saying I disagree with your choice, but I personally associated Time Spiral more closely with storm/ high tide than Dark Ritual. I've seen Dark Ritual played a lot more in aggressive black strategies/ reanimator strategies than storm.
I would like to return to your decision a month ago to cut your cube down from 720 to 450 card - I've really love the change. It offers a very different play style that focuses more on tight play rather than assembling archetypes/ unfair decks. I've rarely played midrange/ control strategies in constructed and I've learned to appreciate the complexity of navigating complex midrange board states and playing around various removal effects.
My play group is considering switching it up once in a while between various cube sizes - 450 (Competitive Draft), 720 (Regular Causal), 1000+ (Exploration - Wild new cards + archetypes)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Generally the cuts all make sense, but there's a few cuts I was a tad surprised by:
Force of Negation
Shelldock Isle
Dark Ritual
Green Sun's Zenith
Fastbond
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
Karn Liberated
While some of these cards do get a fair bit worse with the removal of combo, my impression is that they are strong enough to stand on their own two feet even without combo (could be wrong of course!). Also surprised Fact or Fiction isn't in your list, I guess that was cut a while back?
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cards I'll be adding right away:
Laelia, the Blade Reforged
Pest Infestation
Triplicate Titan
Cards I'll be testing and might add in later:
Combat Calligrapher
Incarnation Technique
Paradox Zone
Cards that look spicy but I probably won't add:
Promise of Loyalty
Inkshield
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Pest Infestation seems much better than Reclamation Sage. Awesome!
Maybe there's an artifact I could do without if I wanted Triplicate Titan.
All and all Commander 2021 seems pretty cool.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Those cards never panned out for me in the long run. I've cubed all of them, but none of them stuck around.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Highball MTGS Cube Thread
Youtube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
How are you making that destinction? I look at cards such as Exalted Angel, Psychatog, and Kessig Prowler, and can't help but feel that there are better options for those slots in 2021. They would have made sense as additions back when they were added, but by now, they show their age.
Highball MTGS Cube Thread
Youtube
If you don't like them, don't run them. Do whatever you want with your own cube.
Newer ≠ better. All of those you mentioned do things that their competitors can't do, and they're more valuable to me because of those advantages. You don't have to agree, but all of the cards I use are played because I believe they're the best cards for the job(s) I'm tasking them to do.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I agree that newer doesn't equal better. I guess the real question I'm trying to ask is what do you want these cards to do and why do they outcompete other cards in their class? Is what your playgroup subjectively enjoys a factor into your card choices, or are you basing everything on objective power level/synergy considerations?
I'm not trying to offend you or anything. I just wanted to pick your brain a little bit to better understand how you evaluate cards and make choices about what you add or exclude from your cube.
Highball MTGS Cube Thread
Youtube
All the cards serve a specific purpose, and it's usually slotting into multiple places. If you have questions about how some are used, ask. It's better than assuming that cards are simply in there because the cube manager is nostalgic about them, and calling them out as being past their prime.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!