I been looking at your 720 list and I been wanting to ask, how have these archetypes performed:
- Dark Depths
- Time Vault
- Taking Turns/ Panoptic Mirror
- Revellarik/ Angelic Renewel/ Saffi Eriksdotter
Especially Dark Depths and Time Vault, I been curious how often the deck comes together, despite only having 1 card as part of the part B combo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Turns combo was okay, but the decks often won by just casting Time Walks ...going "infinite" was often unnecessary.
Reveillark combo was amazing with creatures, but the Saffi/Renewal combo stuff was ultimately unnecessary.
Thanks for the response!
I wasn't too thrilled about Dark Depths in my cube either, but for the most part, it was just 2 cards that occasionally could come together. I added it into my cube because someone made a pretty good case that Dark Depths was a pretty good finished for an infinite mana combo.
Yah Time Vault has been pretty good - especially how easily it can combo with Tezzeret the Seeker and how easily the rest of the deck could work with the monoliths/ crypts.
I been trying to make the Kinnan/ Zirda, the Dawnwaker - Basalt Monolith + Auriok Salvager + LED deck work right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Thanks to your contribution to the cube. I saw your explanation describing why combo was removed. I’m wondering is there really no way for fair and combo to coexist? For example, reduce the combo that cannot be used alone or is poorly used. And further reduce the number of parts of a combo to reduce the completion rate, and finally reduce the overall 720 to 540 or 630 to up the cube power level. I really hope that the cube can also see the possibility of achieving combo under the premise of high fair level.
- Rotting Regisaur is something I'll have to watch a bit more closely. I think I've been focused too much on the 2 for 1 draw-back if your opponent burns a removal spell on it after your discard.
- I think the swords are past their prime - My biggest problem with the swords have been the protection. There were so many times where I drafted colors X and Y and saw sword of XY and I felt obliged to pick it up just to hate draft it.
- I'm kinda surprised you have Firebolt over Firestorm. What was your decision to cut Firestorm?
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Rotting Regisaur is used in decks that want to be discarding anyways. So don't worry about the discard; it's usually a non-issue. I want to make sure I have enough discard outlets for my black recursive/reanimation/Loam decks, and Regi is a dual threat in both those decks and as a beater in aggro. It's also a fun creature to drop an Embercleave on.
The Sword discussion is a long and complicated one, but the cast+equip cost was becoming too prohibitive for aggro, which made them creature-heavy midrange deck exclusives. On top of that, only 2 of the Swords had the ability to generate 2 cards worth of value per trigger (the kind of return I'm looking for on a 5-mana investment in a midrange deck) ...and only one of those two has triggers that are always valuable regardless of the board state. Sword of Fire and Ice is so much better than all the other Swords it's not even funny. The gulf between their values made me comfortable playing that one and cutting the rest.
I loveFirestorm, and I'm always looking for ways to get it back into the cube. But Firebolt 's too good.
I didn't want to drop the total equipment count when I trimmed the swords back, which explains Ancestral/Maul/Embercleave/Heirloom as replacements. The 2cc white Blade is in purely as a test; don't know how it will pan out in the long run.
Rotting Regisaur
I didn't want to drop the total equipment count when I trimmed the swords back, which explains Ancestral/Maul/Embercleave/Heirloom as replacements. The 2cc white Blade is in purely as a test; don't know how it will pan out in the long run.
- For Firebolt, I been considering just playing a Burst Lightning variant instead. I've not a fan of the sorcery speed.
- I've been a huge fan of Charming Prince - I've found scry incredibly important in a limited format without good mana fixing/ curve. The Flicker has also been incredibly nice. The lifegain is occasionally nice. I would like to have Archangel, Heliod, Ajani Strength of the Pride as a semi lifegain archetype, but I fear it might just become too much of a hate archetype against aggro.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I like Sword of Sinew and Steel fine too. It's probably my 2nd favorite Sword now. But I'm comfortable benching all the ones that aren't SoF&I. The gulf between that card and the rest of them is ginormous.
I already play Burst Lightning; it's the best Shock variant, and it's upside is leagues better than other comparable options. Firebolt's 1cc burn that can generate card advantage and trigger spells matters cards twice. There's nothing else quite like it.
Prince is solid, but since scaling back the blink shells, there aren't a ton of decks that can maximize its value. When Blink gets a bigger suite of support cards in the future, I'm sure it will come back.
I didn't want to drop the total equipment count when I trimmed the swords back, which explains Ancestral/Maul/Embercleave/Heirloom as replacements. The 2cc white Blade is in purely as a test; don't know how it will pan out in the long run.
Cool changes. Not least because I was also considering adding Rotting Regisaur and Embercleave and scaling back on the Swords myself last time I updated my cube...
Have you done any runs with the new configuration? If so, how was Embercleave?
I've cubed Embercleave before. It's a good card and a very scary/legitimate threat. I think my favorite aspect of the card is that all the untapped mana/combat trick kinds of shenanigans in the cube are largely defensive in nature. The presence of Embercleave in the cube makes untapped mana controlled by the attacking player a relevant thing to pay attention to, which is a great dynamic. It's not a snap staple or anything, but it certainly hits like a truck. You WILL win games by dropping the 'cleave on people. "Leave it to Cleaver" .
First of all, thank you for all you do! I proxied your 540 cube 5/26/2019. Since then, I see it went to 720, but then that stopped being updated April 2020, and now the only one I can find is this 450 cube. Is this your main one now, and do you have any specific posts like your cube design philosophy that explains these major card count changes?
Yes, both are far too time-consuming and impracticable.
Very long time, but I was lurking and saw this so I figured I'd reply.
I haven't worked on my cube in literal years now, but when I was using it at my LGS it was a 360 ->720 expandable cube. It wasn't any more time consuming than any other cube I have had to keep together. Is it harder than just throwing a bunch of cards into a case, pulling them back out again? Sure. Of course it is. It's complicated and impractical in the way that choosing between baking a hot pocket for 28 mins and micro waving it for 2 mins is in comparison.
My 720 card cube, which at it's height was drafted with 14 people, usually hung around 7-11 people though. Even after that was done though, I could rebuild the cube back to it's original form in like an hour. I would know which colored band corresponded to which cube. I had master lists for everything and honestly after you played with it as much I did, you just knew where everything went.
Up until covid, I was working on my new version of the expandable cube sending it up to scarcely believable 1080 cube so I could go back to my LGS again. This would also be the maximum I would ever consider letting a cube draft get to. It would be able to host three 8 player pods. More importantly, if you ever go past 1080, you have now exited realm of power 360 territory.
See, in 360 card cubes that are powered they will always have the power 9 and on top of that basically contain the top 3 cards of any section in the strongest of strong cubes. We're talking things that almost will never leave a cube. The sol rings, the dual lands, the power 9, the great counter spells, card draw, and aggro cards.
When we originally drafted, I wanted to make sure those cards that were in the 360 card cube were distributed as close to fairly as I could get them. So you might see packs where there were 2 red band (360 packs), and 1 540 pack. I would never include the 720 booster cards unless the number of people warranted it. And I would always make sure a person would get to crack one 360 cube booster. There was never a person who got stuck with something like 450/540/720 booster.
If I ever finish the project again, given how disgustingly powerful MTG has come since I was really paying attention to this forum (2008-2012) it would be a much easier thing to manage. The power level of a 360 card cube of 2009 can be watered down a bit with all the cards to choose from of today.
A cube size of 1080 though (45 cards a person = 24 people), could still be created though with the care that everyone would crack a 360 booster. It may piss on the idea of the critical mass archetypes.
But my experience, playing with your personal kitchen table group vs rando LGS people every weekend they really don't go about drafting cube the same at all. It's such a mixed bag of people bringing all their own experiences and skills of playing magic that the archetypes don't get picked up anyway. Still leads to amazing mid-ranged jank decks of brutal power levels.
If I ever finish proxying the cube I'll update here some day.
Anyway, hi wtwlf123 long time thanks for keeping this section of the internet updated with you cube still I use it as my base :).
- Dark Depths
- Time Vault
- Taking Turns/ Panoptic Mirror
- Revellarik/ Angelic Renewel/ Saffi Eriksdotter
Especially Dark Depths and Time Vault, I been curious how often the deck comes together, despite only having 1 card as part of the part B combo.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Vault was broken.
Turns combo was okay, but the decks often won by just casting Time Walks ...going "infinite" was often unnecessary.
Reveillark combo was amazing with creatures, but the Saffi/Renewal combo stuff was ultimately unnecessary.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks for the response!
I wasn't too thrilled about Dark Depths in my cube either, but for the most part, it was just 2 cards that occasionally could come together. I added it into my cube because someone made a pretty good case that Dark Depths was a pretty good finished for an infinite mana combo.
Yah Time Vault has been pretty good - especially how easily it can combo with Tezzeret the Seeker and how easily the rest of the deck could work with the monoliths/ crypts.
I been trying to make the Kinnan/ Zirda, the Dawnwaker - Basalt Monolith + Auriok Salvager + LED deck work right now.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
- Rotting Regisaur is something I'll have to watch a bit more closely. I think I've been focused too much on the 2 for 1 draw-back if your opponent burns a removal spell on it after your discard.
- I think the swords are past their prime - My biggest problem with the swords have been the protection. There were so many times where I drafted colors X and Y and saw sword of XY and I felt obliged to pick it up just to hate draft it.
- I'm kinda surprised you have Firebolt over Firestorm. What was your decision to cut Firestorm?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
The Sword discussion is a long and complicated one, but the cast+equip cost was becoming too prohibitive for aggro, which made them creature-heavy midrange deck exclusives. On top of that, only 2 of the Swords had the ability to generate 2 cards worth of value per trigger (the kind of return I'm looking for on a 5-mana investment in a midrange deck) ...and only one of those two has triggers that are always valuable regardless of the board state. Sword of Fire and Ice is so much better than all the other Swords it's not even funny. The gulf between their values made me comfortable playing that one and cutting the rest.
I love Firestorm, and I'm always looking for ways to get it back into the cube. But Firebolt 's too good.
I didn't want to drop the total equipment count when I trimmed the swords back, which explains Ancestral/Maul/Embercleave/Heirloom as replacements. The 2cc white Blade is in purely as a test; don't know how it will pan out in the long run.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
- I've been incredibly impressed by both Sword of Sinew and Steel and Sword of Feast and Famine. Sword of Body and Mind and Sword of Light and Shadow do feel incredibly weak.
- For Firebolt, I been considering just playing a Burst Lightning variant instead. I've not a fan of the sorcery speed.
- I've been a huge fan of Charming Prince - I've found scry incredibly important in a limited format without good mana fixing/ curve. The Flicker has also been incredibly nice. The lifegain is occasionally nice. I would like to have Archangel, Heliod, Ajani Strength of the Pride as a semi lifegain archetype, but I fear it might just become too much of a hate archetype against aggro.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I already play Burst Lightning; it's the best Shock variant, and it's upside is leagues better than other comparable options. Firebolt's 1cc burn that can generate card advantage and trigger spells matters cards twice. There's nothing else quite like it.
Prince is solid, but since scaling back the blink shells, there aren't a ton of decks that can maximize its value. When Blink gets a bigger suite of support cards in the future, I'm sure it will come back.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Have you done any runs with the new configuration? If so, how was Embercleave?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
First of all, thank you for all you do! I proxied your 540 cube 5/26/2019. Since then, I see it went to 720, but then that stopped being updated April 2020, and now the only one I can find is this 450 cube. Is this your main one now, and do you have any specific posts like your cube design philosophy that explains these major card count changes?
Thanks!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On a related note, have you ever explored building plug and play cube modules?
Avatar by Hakai Studios
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Very long time, but I was lurking and saw this so I figured I'd reply.
I haven't worked on my cube in literal years now, but when I was using it at my LGS it was a 360 ->720 expandable cube. It wasn't any more time consuming than any other cube I have had to keep together. Is it harder than just throwing a bunch of cards into a case, pulling them back out again? Sure. Of course it is. It's complicated and impractical in the way that choosing between baking a hot pocket for 28 mins and micro waving it for 2 mins is in comparison.
My 720 card cube, which at it's height was drafted with 14 people, usually hung around 7-11 people though. Even after that was done though, I could rebuild the cube back to it's original form in like an hour. I would know which colored band corresponded to which cube. I had master lists for everything and honestly after you played with it as much I did, you just knew where everything went.
Up until covid, I was working on my new version of the expandable cube sending it up to scarcely believable 1080 cube so I could go back to my LGS again. This would also be the maximum I would ever consider letting a cube draft get to. It would be able to host three 8 player pods. More importantly, if you ever go past 1080, you have now exited realm of power 360 territory.
See, in 360 card cubes that are powered they will always have the power 9 and on top of that basically contain the top 3 cards of any section in the strongest of strong cubes. We're talking things that almost will never leave a cube. The sol rings, the dual lands, the power 9, the great counter spells, card draw, and aggro cards.
When we originally drafted, I wanted to make sure those cards that were in the 360 card cube were distributed as close to fairly as I could get them. So you might see packs where there were 2 red band (360 packs), and 1 540 pack. I would never include the 720 booster cards unless the number of people warranted it. And I would always make sure a person would get to crack one 360 cube booster. There was never a person who got stuck with something like 450/540/720 booster.
If I ever finish the project again, given how disgustingly powerful MTG has come since I was really paying attention to this forum (2008-2012) it would be a much easier thing to manage. The power level of a 360 card cube of 2009 can be watered down a bit with all the cards to choose from of today.
A cube size of 1080 though (45 cards a person = 24 people), could still be created though with the care that everyone would crack a 360 booster. It may piss on the idea of the critical mass archetypes.
But my experience, playing with your personal kitchen table group vs rando LGS people every weekend they really don't go about drafting cube the same at all. It's such a mixed bag of people bringing all their own experiences and skills of playing magic that the archetypes don't get picked up anyway. Still leads to amazing mid-ranged jank decks of brutal power levels.
If I ever finish proxying the cube I'll update here some day.
Anyway, hi wtwlf123 long time thanks for keeping this section of the internet updated with you cube still I use it as my base :).
Hello, and you're welcome!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!