MTG Salvation

I didn't ask you to do an analysis. I didn't ask you to figure out the role/responsibility of every pet card (which frankly I would be surprised if you don't already know/understand considering the level of dedication you have for your cube). Which I respect. I only wanted to know what card you figure would be next in line over Eternal Dragon since I've seen you move your pet cards in and out over the years. I also asked if you were willing to extend my question to your other pet cards because I believe I'm not the only one who wonders. But hey, I asked and you said no. No need to be snarky about it though.

Just take a look at his recent cuts; that's a proxy for what he thinks are some of the best cards he's not running.

FWIW I didn't detect any snark; I'm sure you thought it was a simple request, but it actually isn't. Thinking about archetype synergy and all the interlocking pieces of a cube is a lot of hard work, and would take a good deal of consideration.

Yeah, cube cuts aren't always just as simple as the next card on a "to be added" list. My own cube and wtwlf's are pretty similar, but even comparing the two using CubeTutor doesn't point out an obvious suggestion for what should be in over something like Eternal Dragon, which I don't run. That card does a very specific job, so even as a pet card, if you wanted to replace it, you'd need to decide what type of effect you need or want on that replacement card. Do you want another Wrath effect? Maybe go with Fumigate. Feel like you need more white aggro support? Maybe look at Savannah Lions or Adorned Pouncer. You could also use that slot for one of your own pet cards. There's several ways you could go and every one of them depends on the specific needs of a cube being played by your specific group.

My goal was to create a discussion about an interesting topic to what seemed multiple people. He didn't have to give me an analysis. How about just a reply about what eternal dragon's goal is and what kind in white card might be similar if any, or if there's none that spring to mind as a suitable replacement maybe a white card that he's been interested plugging into the cube but it's just on the cusp. Coulda talked about something like that, had a good and enjoyable time. But nah, let's be snarky and bark something about not having the time to do a rigorous analysis... After he had already said he didn't know and I said it was fine.

Now we're not talking about fun and enjoyable stuff, we're talking about the stress/aggression that he vented for no reason. He's acting like I was ordering him to do something and not simply trying to strum up a conversation about it. Cya.

I wasn't trying to be snarky, I was trying to tell you why I honestly don't have an easy answer for you. I could just as easily say "throw in the last white card I cut and replace Eternal Dragon with that" ...but that answer would be wrong. I'd have to do an analysis of the role of each card removed, and find a replacement for the effect if needed. But more importantly, I'd have to see how one group of cuts would impact one another. Changing 10 cards simultaneously isn't as easy as just rotating in the "next best card" in each section.

Look at the last set update as an example. I removed Deathrite Shaman when I brought in Assassin't Trophy. But I didn't want to lose the maindeckable piece of graveyard hate. So I brought Nezumi Graverobber back. So it had to replace a 2-drop. I chose Graveyard Marshal because it often played as a hybrid 2-drop/5-drop split card, and I felt the impact wouldn't be as missed at the 5cc slot now that we got access to Doom Whisperer. Every change impacts other areas of the cube, and asking me to come up with replacements for 10+ cards isn't a simple request.

Quote from Noctaem »

Now we're not talking about fun and enjoyable stuff, we're talking about the stress/aggression that he vented for no reason. He's acting like I was ordering him to do something and not simply trying to strum up a conversation about it. Cya.

You are projecting super hard. Wtwlf's response read perfectly neutrally to me, a disinterested observer. On the other hand, this seems like a very jerkish thing to say.

On-topic: I personally love Eternal Dragon as well! It's perhaps a bit past its prime for the tightest of lists, but it still has a lot of value even without the original Plains dual lands in my cube. It's also a highly inevitable threat in Control v. Control matchups. Recurring 5/5 flying Dragons are still pretty reasonable, despite the creature power creep of the past ~15 years. And the original art is fantastic

Quote from Noctaem »

He didn't have to give me an analysis. How about just a reply about what eternal dragon's goal is...

I literally discussed this in the post directly above yours.

Quote from Noctaem »

But nah, let's be snarky and bark something about not having the time to do a rigorous analysis...

Seriously? You asked me a question that would require a ton of time and work to effectively answer. So I either need to give you a BS response, or quickly explain why I can't provide you with a decent answer to your question. I went with the latter because I don't want to provide bad answers to complex questions.

You asked me a question and I provided an honest answer for it. It sound like that's not good enough for you.

Quote from Noctaem »

...simply trying to strum up a conversation...

As an aside, your question did strum up interesting conversation. We can discuss how changes that appear simple have far-reaching effects on other areas of the cube.

I’ve been combing through the forums the last couple days and considered Bloodrage Brawler, but I saw that you were one of the most prominent voices of dissent on its thread. Then I just noticed that he is in your list...

If you don’t mind discussing I’d be interested to hear what changed your mind on Bloodrage. I may add him as well.

He's currently in for testing because I was looking for a hard-hitting 2-drop that might be able to double in use for some graveyard decks. He's okay, and he's a warrior for Najeela, but he ultimately won't survive the next update that has a good red 2-drop in it.

Makes sense. It’s helpful for me to at least see him here because the lower tier red 2-drop options for my 720 are difficult to choose between, and I think I’ll give Bloodrage a spin. I like the added graveyard synergy support for Rakdos Reanimator (mostly aggro-combo).

I think there are a lot of interchangeable options for the lower-tier 1R creatures. You can mix and match, and try all the different options until something better comes along.

I noticed you swapped out Will Kenrith for Daze. Did Will underperform for you? He's in my cube but I haven't drafted a blue-based control deck since adding him so I don't have any first hand experience with the card. Daze is fantastic though.

It has less to do with the former and more to do with the latter. Will is a good card. But I think my cube can survive without the effect. There are only so many 6+ mana cards I can support, and as strong as Will is, I'm not sure he's actually needed. Daze, on the other hand, is an effect I feel I've been actively missing. I want more free spells, I want more cheap countermagic, and I'd like another tool for tempo strategies. Daze fits the bill for all 3 of those categories.

Oh man, I really like Retrofitter Foundry. It has its obvious uses in token decks, the artifact.dec and in sacrifice shells, but it's also played really well in reactive decks too. And it'a clearly very strong with other Servo/Thopter makers. But I think the most important aspect of Foundry is your guarantee that you'll always have something to do with your mana. As long as you have a keepable hand with Foundry in it, you'll never have a single turn that game where you weren't doing at least something, and I can't tell you how valuable that's been. It plays almost exclusively at instant-speed, where you can react to combat and the way the opponent plays to make/upgrade bodies at instant speed. Functioning as a way to blank attacking creatures (including stopping lifelink) while upgrading those chump-blockers into evasive creatures or eventually very solid ground beaters. And it's great flood insurance, since the more mana you have access to, the stronger Foundry gets. And it's pretty insane with Tolarian Academy, and it's a fantastic target for Trinket Mage. I have no plans on removing Foundry any time soon.

In CubeTutor, just put both cards in the top boxes at the same time and click the remove/replace button, and it'll make the swap instead of doing the additions and removals separately.

I have to agree, since cards have been released that have really given thopters a solid presence in the cube like the Foundry, my playgroup has been tickled pink about sending death squadrons of thopters as a main deck archtype. I also love it because you can do multiple color combinations so no death squad is the same from deck to deck

I have a question from looking at your list - why do you play both Flames of the Firebrand and Arc Lightning but not Forked Bolt?

They are both sorcery but forked bolt is 1/3rd of the mana for 2/3rd of the damage.

Quote from Noctaem »

I have to agree, since cards have been released that have really given thopters a solid presence in the cube like the Foundry, my playgroup has been tickled pink about sending death squadrons of thopters as a main deck archtype. I also love it because you can do multiple color combinations so no death squad is the same from deck to deck

I agree. I've been surprised how often the interaction between Foundry and other Thopter/Servo makers has actually shown up.

Quote from IMorphling89 »

I have a question from looking at your list - why do you play both Flames of the Firebrand and Arc Lightning but not Forked Bolt?

They are both sorcery but forked bolt is 1/3rd of the mana for 2/3rd of the damage.

This is a good question. In large part it's because of the expected impact of casting Flames of the Firebrand/Arc Lightning vs Forked Bolt. So many of the targets are X/2 creatures that the chances of generating card advantage with the 2R variants is quite high, and they'll consistently kill more than one creature. All too often, Forked Bolt only clipped one target and it was never anything more than a sorcery-speed Shock/Shower of Sparks. Occasionally there's the missed opportunity where FB could kill two X/1 creatures, but those instances were too few and far-between. Whereas expanding that 2nd target to include all X/2 creatures means that Flames/Arc are killing multiple targets far more often.

But more than that, burn isn't just about cost efficiency. There's a reason that we play all the Lightning Strike variants and don't play Shock. Even though the latter is 2/3's of the damage for 1/2 the cost, there's something to be said for the expected value the 3rd point of burn provides. It's more effective at killing creatures and planeswalkers, and provides more reach. Flames/Arc are the same way. I often can use it to kill an X/3 creature or kill off a 'walker with exactly 3 loyalty remaining; plays that would be entirely impossible with Forked Bolt, despite its greater cost/damage ratio.

Hope that clarifies it at least a little bit.

Curious what your thoughts on the new Ultimate Master cards are, from an aesthetics point of view? The foiling looks ok and not like from the vaults crap, but I’m wondering if i like these almost full art manlands more than pack foils?? So hard to decide. Was Teferi the only planeswalkers from those timmy edition packs that you put in your cube?

No, I ended up adding in several of those 'walkers. I was lucky enough to grab a set at MSRP, and they're kinda neat just because they're rare. My visual spoiler on CubeTutor shows the versions of the cards I use.

I'll probably find at least 1-2 of the new UMA cards to add into the cube. The frame is different, and the foiling process looks okay.

A couple people in my group are convinced that Oath of Druids is near unplayable without including Forbidden orchard, but I feel like Forbidden Orchard isn't all that great or necessary to make it work. I've even demonstrated that the deck functions well by drafting it, but I'm just told that "You're the cube manager and just know how to force it" or "The stars just aligned for you that draft".

It's weirdly opposing

If you don't mind me asking, do you think I should just add forbidden orchard to appease them, or do you have any suggestions on how to convince them otherwise, or should I just drop it since I'm the only one willing to draft it? I think it's probably my favorite deck to draft in the cube, but I'm having a hard time getting my drafters to even consider it. Thank you!

There are some cube managers that have banned Oath of Druids because it's so good. The vast majority of games are determined through the red zone, regardless of what theater/archetype you're playing, and Oath is consistent enough in this format without Orchard. I wouldn't add Forbidden Orchard into my cube in a million years ...but that's just me. Oath is good, and it doesn't even remotely need Orchard to be good enough. One Orchard floating around in the draft pool, to maybe have one Orchard in your deck isn't going to do squat about Oath's consistency anyways. It's not needed, and I think it's a terrible addition.

Crush them with Oath. If they don't learn that it's good, there's nothing more you can do.

hey I was curious who did your Gisela, the broken blade alter

I play wtwlf’s cube exactly and very often, and while some of our more novice friends have a harder time putting together big guy decks that aren’t reanimating or ramp (show and tell, through the breach, eureka/oath strategies) oath is always a top performer. It immediately warps the game and puts the non oath player in a bad position. I would argue most cube decks are more or less midrange decks, and it’s so easy to just drop an oath after your opponent obviously had to play their creature/s to do anything, and get a free ulamog or whatever. Less experienced player seem to always love any “cheat a big guy out” strategy so it seems weird they aren’t seeing the power of the card.

Quote from jfootballfan »

hey I was curious who did your Gisela, the broken blade alter

Poxy14.

What kind of decks is greater gargadon best in? It’s so under drafted in my group, and I’m not sure if I’m just supposed to play it with recursive black creatures, or treat it as a big guy in a reanimating strategy or what...help!