Hi Wtwlf, I've just put up my cuts to 360 and I've tried to have support for blue tempo but can't fit everything in. The main cards which I couldn't find room for were Coralhelm Commander, Voidmage Prodigy, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner along with Memory Lapse and Into the Roil.
I was wondering how the UU 2 drops were playing for you and how important they've been in supporting Thassa and Master of Waves?
Hi Wtwlf, I've just put up my cuts to 360 and I've tried to have support for blue tempo but can't fit everything in. The main cards which I couldn't find room for were Coralhelm Commander, Voidmage Prodigy, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner along with Memory Lapse and Into the Roil.
I was wondering how the UU 2 drops were playing for you and how important they've been in supporting Thassa and Master of Waves?
Thanks
They've been helpful at 450, but I think the concentration of 1UU guys at 360 should be enough.
Most of those exclusions look fine, but I'd play Memory Lapse for sure.
Wow! Thanks for the quick reply, any suggestions on a cut for memory lapse? I was also wondering if I should replace Waterfront Bouncer since combo reanimator seems less available now?
I wouldn't drop Bouncer. Not only is it a great support card for graveyard decks of all kinds, but it also plays well with bounce/blink decks and is just a general nuisance to play against. I don't know what the cut would be instead of Lapse (Impulse maybe?) but I'd be hard-pressed to cut it.
I'm surprised you didn't like Frostburn Weird. He's been nothing but awesome here. Though it may have to do with him not taking a multicolor slot in my cube.
How is Coralhelm Commander/Thassa, God of the Sea/Master of Waves/and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? I always been pushing blue tempo in my cube. The only card of those I tried before in my cube is Thassa, but I feels like she fall short of my expectation. Did any of the other one do some good work?
I notice Omenspeaker is missing from your cube as well. Did she not work out? I feel like I like her more than Thassa, although I don't like neither enough for 360.
I like the blue devotion tempo package because it basically doubles the number of tempo decks I can play. I can go the old XX/u route, or I can now play a UU/x version. Both of which are quite competitive. But at 360, I'd drop the whole package.
If you have a full suite of UU 2 and 3-drops, both Thassa and Master of Waves are very good.
Omenspeaker didn't work well for us, and it certainly wasn't better than Thassa, devotion package or not. I don't think I'd play either at 360 either.
FWIW, I've been running Omenspeaker at 555 and it's been a very boring creature. I don't dislike it, but it certainly won't have a long life in the cube. Thassa, on the other hand, has only came online once or twice, but even as just a way to filter your draws every turn has been pretty solid.
Hey, man. Every so often I like to scour my list looking for cards that might be underperforming or look through other lists here to get ideas for cards that I can swap in and try out. I like making changes every couple of months to keep things fresh and it'll be another month or so before I'm able to toss in BNG cards. Anyway, I went through your list today looking for some ideas for cards we might want to try out. Would you mind giving me some enlightenment on the cards below? Thanks!
How was Champion of the Parish for you guys? There's a metric ton of humans in white now, so I'd expect him to be ok. I thought about cutting Icatian Javelineers for him.
What role does Eternal Dragon play? When we ran it before it was usually just a land fetcher and ended up stuck in the graveyard. The mana cost to bring him back was a bit much and only being able to activate it during your upkeep was annoying. The cube is a different place now than it was then, so I've put this guy on my watch list. What decks does he go in? How does he normally play out for you guys?
Your 540 list ran three 6cc finishers. My list is similarly sized and runs three 6cc finishers as well. I want to bring Inkwell Leviathan back in to provide some more support for Tinker decks (mostly because we tend to have small pools when we draft, so adding more options helps to make Tinker some better). My initial thought is to just cut one of these finishers to make room, but I'm not sure that's right. Should I just leave the three finishers and find another cut for Inky?
Capsize vs Repeal You're currently not running either, but your 540 list ran Repeal instead of Capsize. Doesn't Capsize have a higher upside?
How is Goblin Bombardment? What decks want this sort of sac outlet?
How has Precursor Golem been since adding it back? Better this time around or still on the chopping block waiting for a decent replacement?
How did the Mirage fetches play out for you? I ran them in my peasant list, but was quite unimpressed by them there, but that could just be a side effect of available mana fixing at the peasant level. How many lands would you need to be running per guild in order for these fetches to be in the running? I'm thinking of dropping the bounce lands, but I'm not sure which land should be my fifth in those sections.
Hey, man. Every so often I like to scour my list looking for cards that might be underperforming or look through other lists here to get ideas for cards that I can swap in and try out. I like making changes every couple of months to keep things fresh and it'll be another month or so before I'm able to toss in BNG cards. Anyway, I went through your list today looking for some ideas for cards we might want to try out. Would you mind giving me some enlightenment on the cards below? Thanks!
How was Champion of the Parish for you guys? There's a metric ton of humans in white now, so I'd expect him to be ok. I thought about cutting Icatian Javelineers for him.
He was awful. Outside of Boros, there weren't any 2-color decks that could reliably put together enough humans for him to be swinging for 2 on T2. Black has almost none, and green only has a couple. White has humans, but you need the right concentration to show up in the draft, and there was no way to get enough of them to make him consistent. I think you need 6 additional 1-2cc humans in the deck in order to have Champion swing for 2 on T2 in the average scenario, and that just didn't happen with any level of reliability. In a 360 card cube with 8 players and a human subtheme, fine. But if you play ANY winston/sealed/4-6 man events, pass on him.
What role does Eternal Dragon play? When we ran it before it was usually just a land fetcher and ended up stuck in the graveyard. The mana cost to bring him back was a bit much and only being able to activate it during your upkeep was annoying. The cube is a different place now than it was then, so I've put this guy on my watch list. What decks does he go in? How does he normally play out for you guys?
I love Eternal Dragon. It's usually an uncounterable 2 tutor for dual lands that can recur itself when the game goes long (mirror matches and control matchups, typically) or drop itself in the yard for a quick reanimation target. It's like a split card between the land tutor and the dragon mode that has an extra ability that allows you to do both instead of one or the other. We play him in control decks, and in Junk/midrange/reanimator WBG decks and stuff. I also like it for Boros Wildfire decks, because it survives the spell if it's on the board, and if it's drawn late it still tutors up an extra land while you're rebuilding. I've also randomly bought it back to pay for a Masticore trigger or give me a card to get my Survival engine going again. Corner-cases, but still randomly valuable.
Your 540 list ran three 6cc finishers. My list is similarly sized and runs three 6cc finishers as well. I want to bring Inkwell Leviathan back in to provide some more support for Tinker decks (mostly because we tend to have small pools when we draft, so adding more options helps to make Tinker some better). My initial thought is to just cut one of these finishers to make room, but I'm not sure that's right. Should I just leave the three finishers and find another cut for Inky?
At 500+, I'd run Inkwell for sure. It's an extra Tinker/reanimation target, both of which become more needed as the list size increases.
Capsize vs Repeal You're currently not running either, but your 540 list ran Repeal instead of Capsize. Doesn't Capsize have a higher upside?
It does. Repeal is more of a tempo card and Capsize is more of a midrange/control card. I like both spells a lot, and I doubt I've seen the last of either card forever.
How is Goblin Bombardment? What decks want this sort of sac outlet?
It's decent in the right deck. Rakdos Pox/Stax recursion and/or any deck with a token theme. It's also decent for getting extra value against your opponent's removal, and in response to mass-removal spells of any kind. And it's excellent against creature theft, particularly Treachery and Sarkhan Vol.
How has Precursor Golem been since adding it back? Better this time around or still on the chopping block waiting for a decent replacement?
A little bit of both. There are times (like the turn after a Purphoros, for example) where it's damn-awesome. There are other times where I cringe that my 5-mana investment dies to Chain Lightning. The next good big colorless creature will likely replace it. Especially if it's token-themed (another Battlesphere-type 5-8cc artifact creature is what I'm crossing my fingers for).
How did the Mirage fetches play out for you? I ran them in my peasant list, but was quite unimpressed by them there, but that could just be a side effect of available mana fixing at the peasant level. How many lands would you need to be running per guild in order for these fetches to be in the running? I'm thinking of dropping the bounce lands, but I'm not sure which land should be my fifth in those sections.
They're my 5th favorite lands for the blue allied colors. Grabbing dual lands is the bee's knees. And extra shuffle effects for my Jace/Brainstorm/Top/Rack effects are most welcome.
This update has me wondering why we still didn't get a suitable mono green replacement for Simic Sky Swallower. Them abandoning shroud is probably part of that, but how hard can it be to print 3GGG 6/6 trample, shroud, reach?
They would probably give it hexproof or maybe regeneration instead of shroud.
Wtwlf, I'm a little surprised you didn't go for Pelakka Wurm over the 'don. It seems usable in more deck types, but the elephant is really amazing when cheated out.
This update has me wondering why we still didn't get a suitable mono green replacement for Simic Sky Swallower. Them abandoning shroud is probably part of that, but how hard can it be to print 3GGG 6/6 trample, shroud, reach?
I was really hoping to get another green fatty from this set, bot alas, I'll have to use an existing one.
They would probably give it hexproof or maybe regeneration instead of shroud.
Wtwlf, I'm a little surprised you didn't go for Pelakka Wurm over the 'don. It seems usable in more deck types, but the elephant is really amazing when cheated out.
Cheers,
rant
It was close for me because I like both. I would've added the Wurm in personally, but the rest of my playgroup expressed more interest in Terastodon, so I went with that instead. He does make for more interesting stories than the Wurm, so he's got that going for him.
I'm running the Wurm over the Elephant at the moment. Pelakka is solid value but rather dull, I can't blame your buddies for wanting the swingier 'Don.
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I'm running the Wurm over the Elephant at the moment. Pelakka is solid value but rather dull, I can't blame your buddies for wanting the swingier 'Don.
The Terastodon also opens up more interesting gameplay decisions, and it plays differently every time it's cast. Sometimes it's an all in 18 power guy, and other times you use it to remove problematic cards your opponent has. The different splitting decisions he creates make it a very interesting card to see in action.
One trillion percent agreed.
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I was wondering how the UU 2 drops were playing for you and how important they've been in supporting Thassa and Master of Waves?
Thanks
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They've been helpful at 450, but I think the concentration of 1UU guys at 360 should be enough.
Most of those exclusions look fine, but I'd play Memory Lapse for sure.
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Impulse is already gone unfortunately, Memory Lapse was indeed one of the hard cuts but 360 is a tough mistress. Will see how it goes.
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I notice Omenspeaker is missing from your cube as well. Did she not work out? I feel like I like her more than Thassa, although I don't like neither enough for 360.
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If you have a full suite of UU 2 and 3-drops, both Thassa and Master of Waves are very good.
Omenspeaker didn't work well for us, and it certainly wasn't better than Thassa, devotion package or not. I don't think I'd play either at 360 either.
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How was Champion of the Parish for you guys? There's a metric ton of humans in white now, so I'd expect him to be ok. I thought about cutting Icatian Javelineers for him.
What role does Eternal Dragon play? When we ran it before it was usually just a land fetcher and ended up stuck in the graveyard. The mana cost to bring him back was a bit much and only being able to activate it during your upkeep was annoying. The cube is a different place now than it was then, so I've put this guy on my watch list. What decks does he go in? How does he normally play out for you guys?
Your 540 list ran three 6cc finishers. My list is similarly sized and runs three 6cc finishers as well. I want to bring Inkwell Leviathan back in to provide some more support for Tinker decks (mostly because we tend to have small pools when we draft, so adding more options helps to make Tinker some better). My initial thought is to just cut one of these finishers to make room, but I'm not sure that's right. Should I just leave the three finishers and find another cut for Inky?
Capsize vs Repeal You're currently not running either, but your 540 list ran Repeal instead of Capsize. Doesn't Capsize have a higher upside?
How is Goblin Bombardment? What decks want this sort of sac outlet?
How has Precursor Golem been since adding it back? Better this time around or still on the chopping block waiting for a decent replacement?
How did the Mirage fetches play out for you? I ran them in my peasant list, but was quite unimpressed by them there, but that could just be a side effect of available mana fixing at the peasant level. How many lands would you need to be running per guild in order for these fetches to be in the running? I'm thinking of dropping the bounce lands, but I'm not sure which land should be my fifth in those sections.
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Of course!
He was awful. Outside of Boros, there weren't any 2-color decks that could reliably put together enough humans for him to be swinging for 2 on T2. Black has almost none, and green only has a couple. White has humans, but you need the right concentration to show up in the draft, and there was no way to get enough of them to make him consistent. I think you need 6 additional 1-2cc humans in the deck in order to have Champion swing for 2 on T2 in the average scenario, and that just didn't happen with any level of reliability. In a 360 card cube with 8 players and a human subtheme, fine. But if you play ANY winston/sealed/4-6 man events, pass on him.
I love Eternal Dragon. It's usually an uncounterable 2 tutor for dual lands that can recur itself when the game goes long (mirror matches and control matchups, typically) or drop itself in the yard for a quick reanimation target. It's like a split card between the land tutor and the dragon mode that has an extra ability that allows you to do both instead of one or the other. We play him in control decks, and in Junk/midrange/reanimator WBG decks and stuff. I also like it for Boros Wildfire decks, because it survives the spell if it's on the board, and if it's drawn late it still tutors up an extra land while you're rebuilding. I've also randomly bought it back to pay for a Masticore trigger or give me a card to get my Survival engine going again. Corner-cases, but still randomly valuable.
At 500+, I'd run Inkwell for sure. It's an extra Tinker/reanimation target, both of which become more needed as the list size increases.
It does. Repeal is more of a tempo card and Capsize is more of a midrange/control card. I like both spells a lot, and I doubt I've seen the last of either card forever.
It's decent in the right deck. Rakdos Pox/Stax recursion and/or any deck with a token theme. It's also decent for getting extra value against your opponent's removal, and in response to mass-removal spells of any kind. And it's excellent against creature theft, particularly Treachery and Sarkhan Vol.
A little bit of both. There are times (like the turn after a Purphoros, for example) where it's damn-awesome. There are other times where I cringe that my 5-mana investment dies to Chain Lightning. The next good big colorless creature will likely replace it. Especially if it's token-themed (another Battlesphere-type 5-8cc artifact creature is what I'm crossing my fingers for).
They're my 5th favorite lands for the blue allied colors. Grabbing dual lands is the bee's knees. And extra shuffle effects for my Jace/Brainstorm/Top/Rack effects are most welcome.
Cheers, and happy cubing!
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One more question... Do you think three 6cc finishers are needed at 540 in addition to Inkwell or will two be enough?
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I'd test it out with two + Inkwell and see if you need another.
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Mirrors my thinking exactly, especially when I join you at 450 in a week or so. I hope we get some really good cards in this set, but I'm losing hope.
Cheers,
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Leonin Relic-Warder -----> Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Blood Scrivener -----> Pain Seer
River Boa -----> Courser of Kruphix
Simic Sky Swallower -----> Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Other Changes:
Awakening Zone -----> Terastodon
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This update has me wondering why we still didn't get a suitable mono green replacement for Simic Sky Swallower. Them abandoning shroud is probably part of that, but how hard can it be to print 3GGG 6/6 trample, shroud, reach?
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Wtwlf, I'm a little surprised you didn't go for Pelakka Wurm over the 'don. It seems usable in more deck types, but the elephant is really amazing when cheated out.
Cheers,
rant
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I was really hoping to get another green fatty from this set, bot alas, I'll have to use an existing one.
It was close for me because I like both. I would've added the Wurm in personally, but the rest of my playgroup expressed more interest in Terastodon, so I went with that instead. He does make for more interesting stories than the Wurm, so he's got that going for him.
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The Terastodon also opens up more interesting gameplay decisions, and it plays differently every time it's cast. Sometimes it's an all in 18 power guy, and other times you use it to remove problematic cards your opponent has. The different splitting decisions he creates make it a very interesting card to see in action.
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