You said it yourself ... both effects are undercosted ... both effects are also desirable. Either effect will often win you the game. Who cares that you can't choose ... plenty of great cards that opponents make choices for (and often incorrectly if you can act/bluff at all).
If you could make choice, it would likely cost 2 more ... and still be pretty good.
Either effect can win you the game, but the fact that your opponent gets to choose which happens means that the card itself will rarely help you. The times when you wish it wasn't something else are few enough that it isn't worth it.
I still like Fanatic. He easily kills ramp creatures, can finish off larger creatures that took damage, and can always go to the dome if all else fails. He was weakened, but he still offers red a lot for the mana.
I don't really understand why people diss cards like Shock but are still playing Fanatic. I'd play Shock and Tarfire before the critter.
Re-reading that, I'm not saying that I saw you dissing Shock or anything Rantipole, you just reminded me of it. Thanks for your input!
Re the Browbeat discussion, I'd prefer if people not post just to bash a suggestion some other helpful forum member made. Chiming in is fine even if you don't agree with someone else's suggestions, but please keep it constructive. Thanks!
Will post the green section this evening (GMT +1).
I don't really understand why people diss cards like Shock but are still playing Fanatic. I'd play Shock and Tarfire before the critter.
I don't think that Shock or Tarfire are sucky cards. There's just better red options from Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning to all the two mana options.
The fanatic actually fills a very different role. Sometimes it's ½ a shock. Sometimes it's so much more. If you drop it turn 1, you have an early beater, that can get a couple of damage in (sometimes even 4). When it have done its job it can be used to ping something. The Shock variants have one sole purpose - deal two damage to something.
Therefor I think these cards are very hard to compare. It's like trying to compare Wrath of God to Swords to Plowshares. It can be done, but won't show you anything you can use, or let alone prove something.
I don't think that Shock or Tarfire are sucky cards. There's just better red options from Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning to all the two mana options.
The fanatic actually fills a very different role. Sometimes it's ½ a shock. Sometimes it's so much more. If you drop it turn 1, you have an early beater, that can get a couple of damage in (sometimes even 4). When it have done its job it can be used to ping something. The Shock variants have one sole purpose - deal two damage to something.
Therefor I think these cards are very hard to compare. It's like trying to compare Wrath of God to Swords to Plowshares. It can be done, but won't show you anything you can use, or let alone prove something.
I see your point. However, I refuse to acknowledge any 1/1 as a beater. 1 damage a turn just doesn't cut it. Knowing that I don't see any future as a beater for the Mogg, perhaps you'll then understand why I regard him as merely 'half a shock', as you so aptly put it.
Mogg Fantastic might be crappy in any other color, but a red creature for R that has a damage ceiling that high, yet still can guarantee damage is unheard of (Keldon Marauders is similar and would likely be shunned in other colors too). Additionally the card just allows for great plays, and often manages to draw the attention of removal spells, which is always amazing.
Mogg Fantastic might be crappy in any other color, but a red creature for R that has a damage ceiling that high, yet still can guarantee damage is unheard of (Keldon Marauders is similar and would likely be shunned in other colors too). Additionally the card just allows for great plays, and often manages to draw the attention of removal spells, which is always amazing.
Yeah. The main reason Moss Fanatic is so good, is because it's placed in the most agressive color, with the suckiest creatures. If red had 10 different 2/1 creatures for R it would be a different story. But the fact remains that Moss Fanatic still is one of the best red one-drops.
Kavu Titan is good because of its versatility. You can play it second turn as a bear, or 4-5 turn as a 5/5 trampler. The cube loves cards that have multiple or different uses.. eg. kicker, buyback, unearth, flashback, retrace, etc
I never liked Kavu Titan. I played it for a long while and cut it. It didn't perform will in either of its roles, and even though it can be both cards, I found Grizzly Bears to always be a bad card... and the 5/5 trample for 5 wasn't that impressive either.
A 2/2 for 1G or a 5/5 Trample for 3GG on itself is not cubeworthy, but having both in one card is surprisingly strong. Versatility goes a long way.
But it was one of the last cards to get accepted in the shortlist. Frederik really likes it and because it is so versatile it is never a bad card. (Neither is it a gamebreaking card, but hey you can't have your cake and eat it)
Oracle of Mul Daya seems to be a very strong card for Green. I'm waiting for mine to come in the mail so that I can test it out. At least this has better longevity than Fastbond, which I'm disatisfied with.
A 2/2 for 1G or a 5/5 Trample for 3GG on itself is not cubeworthy, but having both in one card is surprisingly strong. Versatility goes a long way.
But it was one of the last cards to get accepted in the shortlist. Frederik really likes it and because it is so versatile it is never a bad card. (Neither is it a gamebreaking card, but hey you can't have your cake and eat it)
Actually I wouldn't have a hard time letting it go, definitely one of the fringe cases.
Oracle of Mul Daya has a neat ability but it's stuck to a pretty overpriced body - doesn't this just get killed? Seems that 3G is a big investment for such a fragile card.
Eidolon, it looks like the resource denial is really a feature of our cube, in several colors people tell us to remove some of them. Thing is, it's just strong, so it should be in. People don't play it because they think it's not fun, a view which we do not share. Although Mwonvali AND Reap and Sow may be a bit much.
I'm here to second the Oracle suggestion. It is really good. It's ok in a heavy green deck, but it really shines in anything with pretty good card draw. Plus, it's a uniqu combination of effects.
How as Su-Chi and Cathodion performed in your cube? Have you had a chance to abuse the extra mana that they provide? Or do you just use it at a 4/4 body??
How as Su-Chi and Cathodion performed in your cube? Have you had a chance to abuse the extra mana that they provide? Or do you just use it at a 4/4 body??
Well this list is brand new. We have drafted only once so far (and we only played the first round so far) with the new selection and Su-Chi didn't come out. But I don't see how it can be bad. 90 % of the time it will propably just be a 4/4 for 4. Though that is not bad for a card that is playable for almost every single deck you can draft. It rarely will be a wow card I think though.
-Wilt-Leaf Liege
+Behemoth Sledge or Armadillo Cloak
White should have enough anthems without taking up a valuable G/W slot. I prefer the Sledge but the Cloak is a little more aggressive and very solid as well.
-Doran the Siege Tower
Spent way too much time in sideboards when I had him. He's just not worth splashing for.
-Woolly Thoctar
See Doran
I'd also try and fit in Sphinx of the Steel Wind. It is castable in slow control decks and makes for an excellent Tinker & reanimator target. I'm kind of obsessive about balance so I'd cut Hellkite Overlord and Empyrial Archangel as well to even out the shards but they're both really good.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that it is odd seeing B/R & U/W with 7 cards and G/R & W/G with only 6. If you aren't giving an equal number to each combination G/R & W/G should both have more than all the other color combinations.
Good suggestions Donald, thanks! We will definelty consider those cards when we sit down for the next update.
The reason why some sections have more cards is the system we used. We started 4 of each enemy combination and 6 of each allied combination. Then we gave ourselves ten spots for three or more colour cards and for cards that just missed the cut in the two colour sections. We really wanted to minimize the three colour section, as we felt that they are too narrow. We almost banned them on principle, but we couldn't stomach not using some of them. That is the reason why some of the two colour sections have an additional card.
I'd also like to add that it is odd seeing B/R & U/W with 7 cards and G/R & W/G with only 6. If you aren't giving an equal number to each combination G/R & W/G should both have more than all the other color combinations.
That's intriguing, so if we don't balance combinations exactly it's G/R and W/G that should get more cards. Why is that? Card quality, supporting aggro, or what?
That's intriguing, so if we don't balance combinations exactly it's G/R and W/G that should get more cards. Why is that? Card quality, supporting aggro, or what?
I think both of those colors are very deep with solid cards whereas I don't find Plumeveil or Augury Adept to be particularly strong. Take R/G for example, I would play Fires of Yavimaya, Firespout, Shivan Wurm, Rumbling Slum AND Burning Tree Shaman over both of those. I would probably even rather have Boartusk Liege. B/R is pretty deep as well but I think I'd rather have Sledge, Cloak, Wilt-Leaf Liege and Phantom Nishoba over the weakest B/R card. I think it is Wrecking Ball but a lot of people like that card a lot.
because those 2 colour combination have the best gold cards, thats really it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
The entire cube in its current incarnation has been posted! We had some great suggestions already so don't hesitate to toss in your 2 cents. Thanks a lot!
I would like to make WU control a bit stronger. Strange enough it has been a bit mediocre so far. UB control seems to work a lot better though. We haven't drafted that often so far, so it could just be bad luck for this archytype.
I personally love the good old bore-you-to-hell WU decks;). Do we miss any staple card for this archytype?
Either effect can win you the game, but the fact that your opponent gets to choose which happens means that the card itself will rarely help you. The times when you wish it wasn't something else are few enough that it isn't worth it.
Here is the class of cards Browbeat is in:
Pariah
Traumatize
Megrim
Browbeat
Argothian Wurm
These are all pretty bad/narrow cards, Pariah being the best, that casual players seem to like for some reason.
Edit: This Browbeat argument is pretty pointless because the OP knows better than to run Browbeat, so it's not like it's going in the list...
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I don't really understand why people diss cards like Shock but are still playing Fanatic. I'd play Shock and Tarfire before the critter.
Re-reading that, I'm not saying that I saw you dissing Shock or anything Rantipole, you just reminded me of it. Thanks for your input!
Re the Browbeat discussion, I'd prefer if people not post just to bash a suggestion some other helpful forum member made. Chiming in is fine even if you don't agree with someone else's suggestions, but please keep it constructive. Thanks!
Will post the green section this evening (GMT +1).
I don't think that Shock or Tarfire are sucky cards. There's just better red options from Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning to all the two mana options.
The fanatic actually fills a very different role. Sometimes it's ½ a shock. Sometimes it's so much more. If you drop it turn 1, you have an early beater, that can get a couple of damage in (sometimes even 4). When it have done its job it can be used to ping something. The Shock variants have one sole purpose - deal two damage to something.
Therefor I think these cards are very hard to compare. It's like trying to compare Wrath of God to Swords to Plowshares. It can be done, but won't show you anything you can use, or let alone prove something.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I see your point. However, I refuse to acknowledge any 1/1 as a beater. 1 damage a turn just doesn't cut it. Knowing that I don't see any future as a beater for the Mogg, perhaps you'll then understand why I regard him as merely 'half a shock', as you so aptly put it.
In any case, my thanks for the input.
Yeah. The main reason Moss Fanatic is so good, is because it's placed in the most agressive color, with the suckiest creatures. If red had 10 different 2/1 creatures for R it would be a different story. But the fact remains that Moss Fanatic still is one of the best red one-drops.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
A 2/2 for 1G or a 5/5 Trample for 3GG on itself is not cubeworthy, but having both in one card is surprisingly strong. Versatility goes a long way.
But it was one of the last cards to get accepted in the shortlist. Frederik really likes it and because it is so versatile it is never a bad card. (Neither is it a gamebreaking card, but hey you can't have your cake and eat it)
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Actually I wouldn't have a hard time letting it go, definitely one of the fringe cases.
Oracle of Mul Daya has a neat ability but it's stuck to a pretty overpriced body - doesn't this just get killed? Seems that 3G is a big investment for such a fragile card.
Eidolon, it looks like the resource denial is really a feature of our cube, in several colors people tell us to remove some of them. Thing is, it's just strong, so it should be in. People don't play it because they think it's not fun, a view which we do not share. Although Mwonvali AND Reap and Sow may be a bit much.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Thanks to all for your comments, keep 'em coming!
Well this list is brand new. We have drafted only once so far (and we only played the first round so far) with the new selection and Su-Chi didn't come out. But I don't see how it can be bad. 90 % of the time it will propably just be a 4/4 for 4. Though that is not bad for a card that is playable for almost every single deck you can draft. It rarely will be a wow card I think though.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
-Dimir Cutpurse
+Recoil or Wydwen, the Biting Gale
I also prefer both of these cards over Nemesis of Reason.
-Wilt-Leaf Liege
+Behemoth Sledge or Armadillo Cloak
White should have enough anthems without taking up a valuable G/W slot. I prefer the Sledge but the Cloak is a little more aggressive and very solid as well.
-Doran the Siege Tower
Spent way too much time in sideboards when I had him. He's just not worth splashing for.
-Woolly Thoctar
See Doran
I'd also try and fit in Sphinx of the Steel Wind. It is castable in slow control decks and makes for an excellent Tinker & reanimator target. I'm kind of obsessive about balance so I'd cut Hellkite Overlord and Empyrial Archangel as well to even out the shards but they're both really good.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that it is odd seeing B/R & U/W with 7 cards and G/R & W/G with only 6. If you aren't giving an equal number to each combination G/R & W/G should both have more than all the other color combinations.
The reason why some sections have more cards is the system we used. We started 4 of each enemy combination and 6 of each allied combination. Then we gave ourselves ten spots for three or more colour cards and for cards that just missed the cut in the two colour sections. We really wanted to minimize the three colour section, as we felt that they are too narrow. We almost banned them on principle, but we couldn't stomach not using some of them. That is the reason why some of the two colour sections have an additional card.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
That's intriguing, so if we don't balance combinations exactly it's G/R and W/G that should get more cards. Why is that? Card quality, supporting aggro, or what?
I think both of those colors are very deep with solid cards whereas I don't find Plumeveil or Augury Adept to be particularly strong. Take R/G for example, I would play Fires of Yavimaya, Firespout, Shivan Wurm, Rumbling Slum AND Burning Tree Shaman over both of those. I would probably even rather have Boartusk Liege. B/R is pretty deep as well but I think I'd rather have Sledge, Cloak, Wilt-Leaf Liege and Phantom Nishoba over the weakest B/R card. I think it is Wrecking Ball but a lot of people like that card a lot.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
The entire cube in its current incarnation has been posted! We had some great suggestions already so don't hesitate to toss in your 2 cents. Thanks a lot!
I personally love the good old bore-you-to-hell WU decks;). Do we miss any staple card for this archytype?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear