Is the consensus that Remand and Memory Lapse are just better then more expensive hard counters like Rewind and Faerie Trickerie?
I like Memory Lapse myself. Remand was played in a period where our Magic activities were very limited, so maybe we underestimate this card.
I do feel unsure about the fact that they do not solve the problem. Ofcourse the upside is that they regularly act as a Time Walk.
Well, they are obviously tempo cards rather than hard counters. So if you play them like hard counters they will underperform. I would say that they are both better than Faerie Trickery, but am not so sure about Rewind. Rewind has been awesome for me and is better in the cube than perhaps any constructed format ever, as four mana is the sweet spot for Fact or Fiction, Cryptic and Gifts.
I'm of the opinion that Remand and Memory Lapse are better than Faerie Trickery and Rewind. They are both tempo counters, but are more than fine in control decks where as Rewind and Faerie Trickery aren't really any good in aggro-control. Aside from being cheaper, which makes them more effective in multiple decks, they also only require a single blue mana.
Memory Lapse is better in aggro decks and Remand is better in control, but they are both playable everywhere--I favor Remand over Memory Lapse.
I'm of the opinion that Remand and Memory Lapse are better than Faerie Trickery and Rewind. They are both tempo counters, but are more than fine in control decks where as Rewind and Faerie Trickery aren't really any good in aggro-control. Aside from being cheaper, which makes them more effective in multiple decks, they also only require a single blue mana.
Memory Lapse is better in aggro decks and Remand is better in control, but they are both playable everywhere--I favor Remand over Memory Lapse.
I am willing to give both Remand and Memory Lapse a chance. We'll see how to include them in the next update.
Which counters would you guys cut to get those two in? I hesitate between Draining Whelk, Faerie Trickery, Complicate, Power Sink and Miscalculation. Or we could remove other cards but then the number of counters might get 'too high'. Well not really too many counters, but not enough card draw, bounce or creatures could be problematic.
How has Land Destruction been for those who put it in as a viable archetype liek we did? So far it performs rather well, except for the fact that if nobody goes for it from the beginning the LD cards often get late picked and act as mediocre side board cards. But this problem goes for a lot of other archetypes too I guess (look at all the people struggling with aggro).
I actually just made the switch from Fastbond to Oracle of Mul Daya recently. Other than first or second turn, Fastbond was useless. While slower and more vulnerable, it does everything that Fastbond does and more! While it hasn't seen that much play yet, it still shows much promise..
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Not true. Fastbond leads to a much earlier advantage, and combos with Loam/Crucible for some crazyness. I don't know which of the two cards I actually prefer, as I have played with both in the past, and neither are in my cube anymore.
Quote from Hicham »
Which counters would you guys cut to get those two in? I hesitate between Draining Whelk, Faerie Trickery, Complicate, Power Sink and Miscalculation. Or we could remove other cards but then the number of counters might get 'too high'. Well not really too many counters, but not enough card draw, bounce or creatures could be problematic.
I'd either cut Whelk & Trickery or Trickery & Sink. The other counters are too good, and both Remand and Lapse are staples, IMO.
I think Faerie Trickery is an easy cut; the other could be Draining Whelk or one of your 3/1 flyers for 3.
Oracle is better than any of the spells you mentioned. You could drop any of them and would be making an improvement, but I'd eventually cut all of those as they seem subpar.
I guess when you reference LD, you are talking about primarily about ld with a single target. It's probably ok, but I don't think green should be so heavy into it, especially since it probably doesn't have the tools to capitalize. If you want ld to be decently heavy in your cube, I would go for the stax variants of it. The stax destruction cards play better together and are generally more crippling than their green counterparts. My cube is a pretty good example of what prison can look like in the cube, if you are looking for examples.
I guess when you reference LD, you are talking about primarily about ld with a single target. It's probably ok, but I don't think green should be so heavy into it, especially since it probably doesn't have the tools to capitalize. If you want ld to be decently heavy in your cube, I would go for the stax variants of it. The stax destruction cards play better together and are generally more crippling than their green counterparts. My cube is a pretty good example of what prison can look like in the cube, if you are looking for examples.
Which important Stax/prison cards are we missing Drahcir? I looked through your list but couldn' pinpoint exactly which cards you were referring to.
My support for Green LD comes from doing very well in constructed for a while with a Green LD ( Similar to this deck from Levy during Extended around Urza Block). The flow of that deck impressed me so much, it for always convinced me of the power of mana elves and land destruction. I agree that the cards on themself seem a bit subpar, but we haven't played enough to decide if our trust in LD is just a pet archetype or if it actually works.
For Blue I think two of these cards will probably leave the cube: Draining Whelk, Fairy Trickery or a 3/1 flyer.
Good updates overall. If you're not currently using Into the Roil, you could try it instead of Boomerang. It can't hit lands, but it's more splashable and can draw you cards when you've got extra mana.
Good updates overall. If you're not currently using Into the Roil, you could try it instead of Boomerang. It can't hit lands, but it's more splashable and can draw you cards when you've got extra mana.
We have Into the Roil in. In the last draft it really shined, bounce has proven to be very good so far. It helps to bypass big problems like Moat, reanimated finishers and messes up combos. Into the Roil is probably better then Boomerang, but both are worthy of their place. Boomeranging land often is a nice option to have to give control some time or to slow a slow opponent down.
Silent Arbiter recently reentered our cube, because I felt aggro was too dominant. It did quite well. In a cube as big as yours, I'd definitely run it. Hell I even cube the Referee over Ensnaring Bridge.
Depending on the matchup, Silent Arbiter is either crushing or awful. If your opponent plays a Rorix the turn after you play the arbiter, they don't care too much. Against aggro tho, it's pretty much GG if they don't shatter it.
Exactly what wtwlf123 said. The Arbiter can block most creatures easily and even if your opponent has a bomb, it limits them to attacking with the bomb only. It's one of my favourite anti-aggro cards.
First of all, it should be noted that we re-defined our sections and balanced our cube from there, as was discussed in the Paradigm Shift thread. For those who haven't seen it and are too lazy to go have a look:
Basically this is a way of categorizing according to how a card functions instead of for example its card type or its printed color. As a result of this, colored lands now go into the colored sections, there's a new colorless section for everything that can go into any deck (including colorless utility lands), and a fixing section for everything that fixes (including land and artifacts). Lastly, the multi-color section accommodates gold cards, hybrids, split cards, cards with different colored activation costs and cards that need other colors or lands to be playable (a few examples are Momentary Blink, Kird Ape and All Suns' Dawn). There is no longer a need for an artifact of land section since these are card types, and say little about how a card functions.
Moving around cards meant that cuts needed to be made in the color sections in order to balance them. Of course, some cards were also upgraded or swapped for global cube improvement (to lower curves, bolster archetypes, etc). I'll list the changes for each section below, but if you have the time please also have a look at the OP - it will give a much better idea as to what the results of these changes are.
IN-cards in italics are not new to the cube but were moved from a different section due to the re-organization.
The inclusion of Inkfathom Infiltrator in the black section is somewhat of an anomaly. When researching hybrids I realized that this card is actually a strict upgrade of Dauthi Slayer, but there's no room for it in the multi-color section. Running the inferior card because of this seemed wrong, so we decide to simply cut the Slayer for it and stick it in the black section. We'll see later if there's a better solution. We're giving Tombstalker and Bloodghast a test run based on your collective recommendations. And Skirge and Shortfang got cut simply because there were no other cards we were comfortable cutting in their stead.
A few underperformers, some upgrades (Farseek, Kodama's Reach). Krosan Grip gets a chance over Naturalize, on paper the split second looks more relevant than the additional 1. Doubling Season gets a chance to prove itself; it probably has the most synergy of the combo cards we run and it's in the ramp color, so 5 mana doesn't seem unattainable. Note that we forgot that All Suns' Dawn got moved to the multi-color section, so we actually have room for another green card. I'm thinking of giving Omnath, Locus of Mana a test-run.
Form of the Dragon got cut for the more versatile Comet Storm, Kaervek's Torch was upgraded to a Disintegrate, and the (in our opinion) weakest 2-damage burn spell got cut in favor of another 2-drop. I finally caved and my pet card Mana Flare left the cube for the re-introduction of the Encampment (manlands have been really good, and a 2/1 first strike is relevant enough). Since Squee got shipped to the colorless section the Mox could slot into Red without a fuss.
Another few underperformers, Story Circle departs because of my strong dislike of this card (sorry Hicham), and some swaps were made to lower the curve.
The workshop didn't have enough to work with, Crucible is unloved, Aeolipile got cut for being sub-par. This brings the net total down 2 cards, but that doesn't matter much.
The fixer section was expanded to 71 by the dual manlands and Undiscovered Paradise, making its return to the cube after the inclusion of several landfall cards.
This section was balanced 6-4 allied-enemy, the only exception being black-white which has 5 cards. Since 2 of these are hybrids that can easily fit in either of its colors, we didn't think this was a big deal.
Post-update Cube Overview
Colored sections: 75 each
Colorless: 64
Fixers: 71
Multi-color: 60
--------------------------------- TOTAL = 570
Which means the cube has become 10 cards slimmer.
That sums up the major FEB'10 update. Thanks for looking, comments are always welcome - and don't forget to have a look at the OP!
I like Memory Lapse myself. Remand was played in a period where our Magic activities were very limited, so maybe we underestimate this card.
I do feel unsure about the fact that they do not solve the problem. Ofcourse the upside is that they regularly act as a Time Walk.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Memory Lapse is better in aggro decks and Remand is better in control, but they are both playable everywhere--I favor Remand over Memory Lapse.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I am willing to give both Remand and Memory Lapse a chance. We'll see how to include them in the next update.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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To come back on Green I think I would like to find room for the Oracle of Mul Daya. Probably either Mwonvuli Acid Moss or Reap and Sow or possibly Fastbond, though that just feels wrong.
How has Land Destruction been for those who put it in as a viable archetype liek we did? So far it performs rather well, except for the fact that if nobody goes for it from the beginning the LD cards often get late picked and act as mediocre side board cards. But this problem goes for a lot of other archetypes too I guess (look at all the people struggling with aggro).
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Not true. Fastbond leads to a much earlier advantage, and combos with Loam/Crucible for some crazyness. I don't know which of the two cards I actually prefer, as I have played with both in the past, and neither are in my cube anymore.
I'd either cut Whelk & Trickery or Trickery & Sink. The other counters are too good, and both Remand and Lapse are staples, IMO.
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Oracle is better than any of the spells you mentioned. You could drop any of them and would be making an improvement, but I'd eventually cut all of those as they seem subpar.
I guess when you reference LD, you are talking about primarily about ld with a single target. It's probably ok, but I don't think green should be so heavy into it, especially since it probably doesn't have the tools to capitalize. If you want ld to be decently heavy in your cube, I would go for the stax variants of it. The stax destruction cards play better together and are generally more crippling than their green counterparts. My cube is a pretty good example of what prison can look like in the cube, if you are looking for examples.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Which important Stax/prison cards are we missing Drahcir? I looked through your list but couldn' pinpoint exactly which cards you were referring to.
My support for Green LD comes from doing very well in constructed for a while with a Green LD ( Similar to this deck from Levy during Extended around Urza Block). The flow of that deck impressed me so much, it for always convinced me of the power of mana elves and land destruction. I agree that the cards on themself seem a bit subpar, but we haven't played enough to decide if our trust in LD is just a pet archetype or if it actually works.
For Blue I think two of these cards will probably leave the cube: Draining Whelk, Fairy Trickery or a 3/1 flyer.
Thanks for the help so far!
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Agreed. Draining Whelk can be really nuts and will often finish the game.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
OUT:
Eyeblight's Ending
Faerie Trickery
Draining Whelk
Persuasion
Reap and Sow
Grab the Reins
Soltari Emissary
Crib Swap
Doran the Siege Tower
Mesmeric Orb
IN:
Chainer's Edict
Remand
Memory Lapse
Boomerang
Oracle of Mul Daya
Grim Lavamancer
Flickerwisp
Pacifism
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Juggernaut
Mostly these are subpar or just ok cards going out for better cards. Draining Whelk is a fine finisher, but it isn't what's needed so out it goes.
Comments on these changes are welcome, as are further suggestions for future changes. Thanks!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
We have Into the Roil in. In the last draft it really shined, bounce has proven to be very good so far. It helps to bypass big problems like Moat, reanimated finishers and messes up combos. Into the Roil is probably better then Boomerang, but both are worthy of their place. Boomeranging land often is a nice option to have to give control some time or to slow a slow opponent down.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yesterday it really shined in a White-Blue Artifact deck. It locked the game multiple times with Maze of Ith and Kor Haven.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
First of all, it should be noted that we re-defined our sections and balanced our cube from there, as was discussed in the Paradigm Shift thread. For those who haven't seen it and are too lazy to go have a look:
Moving around cards meant that cuts needed to be made in the color sections in order to balance them. Of course, some cards were also upgraded or swapped for global cube improvement (to lower curves, bolster archetypes, etc). I'll list the changes for each section below, but if you have the time please also have a look at the OP - it will give a much better idea as to what the results of these changes are.
Black
OUT:Dauthi Slayer, Laquatus Champion, Order of the Ebon Hand, Skittering Skirge, Nezumi Shortfang
IN: Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tombstalker, Bloodghast, Mox Jet, Volrath's Stronghold
The inclusion of Inkfathom Infiltrator in the black section is somewhat of an anomaly. When researching hybrids I realized that this card is actually a strict upgrade of Dauthi Slayer, but there's no room for it in the multi-color section. Running the inferior card because of this seemed wrong, so we decide to simply cut the Slayer for it and stick it in the black section. We'll see later if there's a better solution. We're giving Tombstalker and Bloodghast a test run based on your collective recommendations. And Skirge and Shortfang got cut simply because there were no other cards we were comfortable cutting in their stead.
Blue
OUT: Opposition, Equilibrium, Confiscate, Time Warp, Cloud Spirit, Rishadan Airship, Ancestral Vision, Clone
IN: Jace the Mind Sculptor, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Pestermite, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Mox Sapphire, Faerie Conclave, Tolarian Academy, Shelldock Isle.
Lots of cuts here, most of them because the cards had underperformed, were just too expensive to see much play, or just because we don't like them.
Green
OUT:Civic Wayfinder, Explosive Vegetation, Naturalize, Channel, Pouncing Jaguar, Kavu Titan, Heartwood Storyteller, Protean Hulk, Tooth and Nail, Cloudthresher.
IN:Farseek, Kodama's Reach, Krosan Grip, Arbor Elf, Doubling Season, Deranged Hermit, Mox Emerald, Gaea's Cradle, Treetop Village, Weatherseed Totem.
A few underperformers, some upgrades (Farseek, Kodama's Reach). Krosan Grip gets a chance over Naturalize, on paper the split second looks more relevant than the additional 1. Doubling Season gets a chance to prove itself; it probably has the most synergy of the combo cards we run and it's in the ramp color, so 5 mana doesn't seem unattainable. Note that we forgot that All Suns' Dawn got moved to the multi-color section, so we actually have room for another green card. I'm thinking of giving Omnath, Locus of Mana a test-run.
Red
OUT: Form of the Dragon, Mana Flare, Kaervek's Torch, Magma Jet, [CARD]Squee, Goblin Nabob[CARD].
IN: Comet Storm, Ghitu Encampment, Disintegrate, Plated Geopede, Mox Ruby.
Form of the Dragon got cut for the more versatile Comet Storm, Kaervek's Torch was upgraded to a Disintegrate, and the (in our opinion) weakest 2-damage burn spell got cut in favor of another 2-drop. I finally caved and my pet card Mana Flare left the cube for the re-introduction of the Encampment (manlands have been really good, and a 2/1 first strike is relevant enough). Since Squee got shipped to the colorless section the Mox could slot into Red without a fuss.
White
OUT: Orim's Chant, Cataclysm, Story Circle, Humility, Magus of the Disk, Stormfront Pegasus, Guardian Seraph, Galepowder Mage.
IN: Eight-and-a-half-tails, Kor Skyfisher, Steppe Lynx, Perimeter Captain, Mox Pearl, Karakas, Kjeldoran Outpost, Kor Haven.
Another few underperformers, Story Circle departs because of my strong dislike of this card (sorry Hicham), and some swaps were made to lower the curve.
Colorless
OUT: Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, Aeolipile.
IN: Lodestone Golem
The workshop didn't have enough to work with, Crucible is unloved, Aeolipile got cut for being sub-par. This brings the net total down 2 cards, but that doesn't matter much.
Fixers
IN: Undiscovered Paradise, Creeping Tar Pit, Celestial Collonade, Lavaclaw Reaches, Stirring Wildwood, Raging Ravine.
The fixer section was expanded to 71 by the dual manlands and Undiscovered Paradise, making its return to the cube after the inclusion of several landfall cards.
Multi-color
OUT: Army Ants, Psychatog, Plumeveil, Azorius Guildmage, Glare of Subdual, Trygon Predator.
IN: Recoil, Momentary Blink, Loam Lion, Mortify, Temporal Spring.
This section was balanced 6-4 allied-enemy, the only exception being black-white which has 5 cards. Since 2 of these are hybrids that can easily fit in either of its colors, we didn't think this was a big deal.
Post-update Cube Overview
Colored sections: 75 each
Colorless: 64
Fixers: 71
Multi-color: 60
---------------------------------
TOTAL = 570
Which means the cube has become 10 cards slimmer.
That sums up the major FEB'10 update. Thanks for looking, comments are always welcome - and don't forget to have a look at the OP!