I run artrolabe, into the north, the snow guildgates from cold snap, mouth of ronom, dark depths (as intended, with no Vampire Hexmage), Gelid Shackles, Cover of Winter, scrying sheets, and On Thin Ice.
I don't have 30-40 of each snow land and while I like the cold snap art, I still prefer other basics.
So I just have, "All basic lands are snow and damage is on the stack" written on one of the long boxes that holds my cube and I try to remember to remind everyone beforehand instead of running actual snow basics.
Plus, everything just being snow by default instead of having to go out of your way to draft it gets under the skin of many Magic players, which is proof that it's a good idea.
I loved the UG snow archetype in Modern Horizons (the only one I liked more was UB Ninjas) and have been debating ever since to add it to my peasant cube as my UG pair is a bit directionless at the moment, but the problem was that I needed snow support. So since money isn't a problem for me I've been going back and forth between swapping all basics for Snow or seeding snow-covered islands and forests in one of each 3-4 packs, and was ultimately deciding in favor of the latter since Snow cards are powerful and their suppossed downside is that you have to draft snow basics to make them worth it as oppossed to them being free full value spells. Since Saltmaster has decided to default everything to Snow instead of making people earn their synergies, I guess I can confirm that seeding basics was the good idea.
I loved the UG snow archetype in Modern Horizons (the only one I liked more was UB Ninjas) and have been debating ever since to add it to my peasant cube as my UG pair is a bit directionless at the moment, but the problem was that I needed snow support. So since money isn't a problem for me I've been going back and forth between swapping all basics for Snow or seeding snow-covered islands and forests in one of each 3-4 packs, and was ultimately deciding in favor of the latter since Snow cards are powerful and their suppossed downside is that you have to draft snow basics to make them worth it as oppossed to them being free full value spells. Since Saltmaster has decided to default everything to Snow instead of making people earn their synergies, I guess I can confirm that seeding basics was the good idea.
I disagree, many snow cards aren't that much more powerful than their non-snow counter parts, so treating them as normal spells isn't that big of a deal. Skred is just a 1 mana doom blade, on thin ice is just a 1 mana journey to nowhere, etc.
I mean, either way is fine. I only have a handful of snow cards in my cube so making everything snow by default makes sense.
If one had an entire snow theme or archetype, it wouldn't be unreasonable to seed each pack with a snow land.
I'm always telling others that they shouldn't listen to anyone else and they should build their own cube instead of a consensus driven Nickelback cube. So if you don't like my ideas, feel free to build your cube the way that you want to and seed each pack with a snow land just to spite me or whatever. I'd still draft your cube if we met in person.
Want to trade drafts on cubetutor? I can't read signatures on my Windows Phone, so you'll have to send me a link to your cube.
I was curious about damage on the stack since I've only been playing Magic since last year, so I started asking some friends what they thought about it, what they preferred and why.
One friend whose opinion I value said that he preferred damage on the stack, and another friend whose opinion I don't really value at all said that he thinks the change was for the better.
Some others also gave me resistance when I declared damage to be on the stack and I would tend to forget to declare it until part way through the draft when I would see a damage on the stack creature and it felt scummy to state it then, so I dropped the idea after a while and I ended up cutting the Nim Replica, Goblin Replica, Elf Replica cycle from my cube (which are some of the best looking cards in the entire game).
I try to play with as many COK Block and Mirrodin cards as possible because they have the best art and the most fun game mechanics and some of those were designed with damage on the stack in mind.
Then I realized that I could just sharpie a reminder on the cardboard longboxes I use for my cube and that everything that Magic players hate is good for the game.
So now I play Nim Replica in all of its hand drawn, computer colored Carl Critchlow glory and two-fer with it. Or play Yuki-Onni and destroy a signet with it, block and put damage on the stack, then bounce it back to hand with a Glacial Ray.
It adds an extra layer of depth to the game, like Splice Onto Arcane or Banding (another thing I get ***** for). I don't know about constructed, but at least in cube it's been fine.
Since I double sleeve cards, I will sometimes sharpie errata on the inner sleeve of cards that are too powerful or underpowered too. Nothing grinds a Magic player's gears more than when he sees that Infect has been replaced with Wither on Blightsteel, or that I've sharpied off Pro:red & white from Sword of War and Peace. Hail Satan.
TL;DR: If every reasonable idea I have is met with resistance, then any idea I have that's met with resistance is reasonable lol.
I'm working on my peasant cube again after a year-and-a-half hiatus, and I keep coming back to this old topic. What's the landscape looking like nowadays for those who run snow basics? What are you playing? What did you try out and eventually decided to cut because it wasn't as good as expected? Kaldheim seems to have added a ton of great options in snow that I'm considering, and I'm going to list the ones I deem worthy of discussion below. That said, don't limit the dialogue to just Kaldheim cards.
For reference, snow is a Simic archetype in my cube, but some cards like Frost Bite are just generically good enough.
Apologies for being a little late on my response, but I have a few thoughts on Snow cards in my cube:
I have cut down a bit lately, specifically on the black flyers, Chilling Shade and Hailstorm Valkyrie. Neither one of them is bad at all, I have just recently felt like my black is trending heavier on the self-mill/reanimation and sacrifice decks. Both have an incredible ability to turn the corner once your have board control, but neither really helps get that without lots of mana investment. I would put Conifer Wurm in that category too. That card was amazing in closing out games in MH1 drafts, but I find it harder and harder to consider 5 drops that need to survive a turn and take a big mana investment to contribute.
You pointed out a lot of good cards in your post, Vannatar, and I am playing several of them: Avalanche Caller is very nutty and plays great offense and defense with its ability. Icebind Pillar is a reasonable way to lock things down, but I could see cutting it someday soon, ala its cousin Icy Manipulator. Boreal Outrider and Spirit of the Aldergard both are effortless ways to greatly impact the board. Blizzard Brawl can have a great impact for minimal cost. Narfi, Betrayer King fits my Dimir section greatly as a giant recurring threat where the pump sometimes matters. Shimmerdrift Vale would be good on its own, but it and the snow duals fix and help me stay on theme.
I would also recommend Mouth of Ronom for fitting some utility in the land slot for snow decks and have recently played Gelid Shackles, which is a good piece of aggro removal that also is serviceable for some controlling decks.
Thinking about all these cards makes me want to re-add the black fliers and possible test some more cards, like Blizzard Strix, Icehide Troll, and Conifer Wurm. Vannatar, what are your experiences with Strix and Wurm?
Oh, I agree with you about them being silly, they definitely are, but they were already in my list from before. I was asking specifically about Kaldheim snow cards, since Kaldheim came out during my most recent hiatus.
Quote from rancoredmalone »
Thinking about all these cards makes me want to re-add the black fliers and possible test some more cards, like Blizzard Strix, Icehide Troll, and Conifer Wurm. Vannatar, what are your experiences with Strix and Wurm?
Conifer Wurm has been great. I mean, sure, anything that doesn't have a CiP ability falls to the old "dies to Terminate" argument, but even then, it's a card for a card. When you untap your mana with it though, and it turns into a 10/10 trampler at minimum (5 snow lands + itself = +6/+6) it's a house that will kill them in a turn or two regardless of blockers. And if you have other snow permanents (say a Boreal Druid or Saddled Rimestag or something) or have the eight mana for a double pump, they're done without the removal. As for it helping get board control, my green decks generally have that through bigger creatures and/or getting stuff out ahead of curve via a Llanowar Elf. I don't really see Conifer Wurm being played in ramp decks; those decks need to reestablish board control and maybe gain some life with Arborback Stomper and Pelakka Wurm type creatures. It's more of a curve-topper for green aggro/midrange.
Blizzard Strix has been pretty decent. A role player that fits a number of things blue is doing in my cube. It's a flyer for W/U Skies, it Blinks something for value, and it has flash, which is always helpful for holding up countermagic. The problem is the body; it's underwhelming. Three power is ok for a 5cmc flying attacker I guess, but it not only gets killed by virtually any removal, it always dies in combat because of two defense. That said, it's already got me some kind of value with it's CiP ability, so it's fine.
-----------------------------------
I've been looking over my list, and I've already found cuts for Frost Bite, Avalanche Caller, Boreal Outrider, and Spirit of the Aldergard. I'd like to find room for a few more of the new snow cards though. I'm not sure about that Icehide Troll; it's hard to kill, but I'm not looking to dump mana early just to get a 4/3 attacker, and a 2/3 attacker where I'm holding up mana just won't get blocked. On defense it's good again if I have the mana available, but then again... I'm holding up the mana and not curving out with a 4cmc spell in that scenario. Idk. I want to find room for Icebind Pillar and Berg Strider, but they both seem slightly overcosted. Blizzard Brawl will probably find its way in though.
Wow I can't believe I didn't realize that those cards were in the wrong set. Wooosh on my end
Icehide troll is essentially unblockable on 3 and turns into a the abyss late game. If need be, it doubles as a roadblock in the mid game. And if you happen to to have the two open on turn 4 or 5, it hits for 4 (in that case it averaged being a 3/3 Latch seeker)
Man reading this thread makes me think like Snow might be the answer to the "UG doesn't have an identity" problem I've had for like 6 years. Does it work that way in practice?
Man reading this thread makes me think like Snow might be the answer to the "UG doesn't have an identity" problem I've had for like 6 years. Does it work that way in practice?
Since most of the best Snow cards are green and blue, it definitely could be called a Simic "archetype." However, I feel it doesn't have as strong of an identity as the archetypes in many of the other two-color combinations because most of the Snow cards seem to be good enough on their own (assuming you're allowing Snow basics).
Basically, I'd divide the Snow cards into four categories:
Unfortunately, only the latter two categories really "make" a Snow archetype imo; the previous two are support. Too bad Narfi, Betrayer King isn't a Simic card.
Oh, I just remembered another card that could lend to the creation of a "Snow archetype" - The Three Seasons. While not Snow itself, it is sort of an engine. It wouldn't be good enough with just Snow basics, but it could become a draw-two in a deck jam-packed with Snow cards. Still... it's a bit underpowered imo.
I don't have 30-40 of each snow land and while I like the cold snap art, I still prefer other basics.
So I just have, "All basic lands are snow and damage is on the stack" written on one of the long boxes that holds my cube and I try to remember to remind everyone beforehand instead of running actual snow basics.
Plus, everything just being snow by default instead of having to go out of your way to draft it gets under the skin of many Magic players, which is proof that it's a good idea.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I disagree, many snow cards aren't that much more powerful than their non-snow counter parts, so treating them as normal spells isn't that big of a deal. Skred is just a 1 mana doom blade, on thin ice is just a 1 mana journey to nowhere, etc.
I mean, either way is fine. I only have a handful of snow cards in my cube so making everything snow by default makes sense.
If one had an entire snow theme or archetype, it wouldn't be unreasonable to seed each pack with a snow land.
I'm always telling others that they shouldn't listen to anyone else and they should build their own cube instead of a consensus driven Nickelback cube. So if you don't like my ideas, feel free to build your cube the way that you want to and seed each pack with a snow land just to spite me or whatever. I'd still draft your cube if we met in person.
Want to trade drafts on cubetutor? I can't read signatures on my Windows Phone, so you'll have to send me a link to your cube.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
You're a madman in a good way
I was curious about damage on the stack since I've only been playing Magic since last year, so I started asking some friends what they thought about it, what they preferred and why.
One friend whose opinion I value said that he preferred damage on the stack, and another friend whose opinion I don't really value at all said that he thinks the change was for the better.
Some others also gave me resistance when I declared damage to be on the stack and I would tend to forget to declare it until part way through the draft when I would see a damage on the stack creature and it felt scummy to state it then, so I dropped the idea after a while and I ended up cutting the Nim Replica, Goblin Replica, Elf Replica cycle from my cube (which are some of the best looking cards in the entire game).
I try to play with as many COK Block and Mirrodin cards as possible because they have the best art and the most fun game mechanics and some of those were designed with damage on the stack in mind.
Then I realized that I could just sharpie a reminder on the cardboard longboxes I use for my cube and that everything that Magic players hate is good for the game.
So now I play Nim Replica in all of its hand drawn, computer colored Carl Critchlow glory and two-fer with it. Or play Yuki-Onni and destroy a signet with it, block and put damage on the stack, then bounce it back to hand with a Glacial Ray.
It adds an extra layer of depth to the game, like Splice Onto Arcane or Banding (another thing I get ***** for). I don't know about constructed, but at least in cube it's been fine.
Since I double sleeve cards, I will sometimes sharpie errata on the inner sleeve of cards that are too powerful or underpowered too. Nothing grinds a Magic player's gears more than when he sees that Infect has been replaced with Wither on Blightsteel, or that I've sharpied off Pro:red & white from Sword of War and Peace. Hail Satan.
TL;DR: If every reasonable idea I have is met with resistance, then any idea I have that's met with resistance is reasonable lol.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
For reference, snow is a Simic archetype in my cube, but some cards like Frost Bite are just generically good enough.
Blue:
Frost Augur
Avalanche Caller
Berg Strider
Icebind Pillar
Black:
Priest of the Haunted Edge
Hailstorm Valkyrie
Red:
Frost Bite
Green:
Blizzard Brawl
Sculptor of Winter (although Rime Tender already existed, and I never included it in the past)
Boreal Outrider
Icehide Troll
Spirit of the Aldergard
Multicolor:
Narfi, Betrayer King
Land:
Shimmerdrift Vale
Snow CIPT Duals
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I have cut down a bit lately, specifically on the black flyers, Chilling Shade and Hailstorm Valkyrie. Neither one of them is bad at all, I have just recently felt like my black is trending heavier on the self-mill/reanimation and sacrifice decks. Both have an incredible ability to turn the corner once your have board control, but neither really helps get that without lots of mana investment. I would put Conifer Wurm in that category too. That card was amazing in closing out games in MH1 drafts, but I find it harder and harder to consider 5 drops that need to survive a turn and take a big mana investment to contribute.
You pointed out a lot of good cards in your post, Vannatar, and I am playing several of them:
Avalanche Caller is very nutty and plays great offense and defense with its ability.
Icebind Pillar is a reasonable way to lock things down, but I could see cutting it someday soon, ala its cousin Icy Manipulator.
Boreal Outrider and Spirit of the Aldergard both are effortless ways to greatly impact the board.
Blizzard Brawl can have a great impact for minimal cost.
Narfi, Betrayer King fits my Dimir section greatly as a giant recurring threat where the pump sometimes matters.
Shimmerdrift Vale would be good on its own, but it and the snow duals fix and help me stay on theme.
I would also recommend Mouth of Ronom for fitting some utility in the land slot for snow decks and have recently played Gelid Shackles, which is a good piece of aggro removal that also is serviceable for some controlling decks.
Thinking about all these cards makes me want to re-add the black fliers and possible test some more cards, like Blizzard Strix, Icehide Troll, and Conifer Wurm. Vannatar, what are your experiences with Strix and Wurm?
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Fallout Commander
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Oh, I agree with you about them being silly, they definitely are, but they were already in my list from before. I was asking specifically about Kaldheim snow cards, since Kaldheim came out during my most recent hiatus.
Conifer Wurm has been great. I mean, sure, anything that doesn't have a CiP ability falls to the old "dies to Terminate" argument, but even then, it's a card for a card. When you untap your mana with it though, and it turns into a 10/10 trampler at minimum (5 snow lands + itself = +6/+6) it's a house that will kill them in a turn or two regardless of blockers. And if you have other snow permanents (say a Boreal Druid or Saddled Rimestag or something) or have the eight mana for a double pump, they're done without the removal. As for it helping get board control, my green decks generally have that through bigger creatures and/or getting stuff out ahead of curve via a Llanowar Elf. I don't really see Conifer Wurm being played in ramp decks; those decks need to reestablish board control and maybe gain some life with Arborback Stomper and Pelakka Wurm type creatures. It's more of a curve-topper for green aggro/midrange.
Blizzard Strix has been pretty decent. A role player that fits a number of things blue is doing in my cube. It's a flyer for W/U Skies, it Blinks something for value, and it has flash, which is always helpful for holding up countermagic. The problem is the body; it's underwhelming. Three power is ok for a 5cmc flying attacker I guess, but it not only gets killed by virtually any removal, it always dies in combat because of two defense. That said, it's already got me some kind of value with it's CiP ability, so it's fine.
-----------------------------------
I've been looking over my list, and I've already found cuts for Frost Bite, Avalanche Caller, Boreal Outrider, and Spirit of the Aldergard. I'd like to find room for a few more of the new snow cards though. I'm not sure about that Icehide Troll; it's hard to kill, but I'm not looking to dump mana early just to get a 4/3 attacker, and a 2/3 attacker where I'm holding up mana just won't get blocked. On defense it's good again if I have the mana available, but then again... I'm holding up the mana and not curving out with a 4cmc spell in that scenario. Idk. I want to find room for Icebind Pillar and Berg Strider, but they both seem slightly overcosted. Blizzard Brawl will probably find its way in though.
Icehide troll is essentially unblockable on 3 and turns into a the abyss late game. If need be, it doubles as a roadblock in the mid game. And if you happen to to have the two open on turn 4 or 5, it hits for 4 (in that case it averaged being a 3/3 Latch seeker)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
I like this idea/question, I have the same issue.
Basically, I'd divide the Snow cards into four categories:
1.) Cards like Saddled Rimestag, Boreal Druid, Coldsteel Heart, and Moritte of the Frost are Snow, but don't care at all about Snow. Any cube can play these - even without Snow basics.
2.) Cards like the aforementioned Icehide Troll, Boreal Outrider, Avalanche Caller, Blizzard Strix, Winter's Rest, Berg Strider, Sculptor of Winter, Icebind Pillar, Icehide Golem, Arcum's Astrolabe, Frostwalk Bastion, and Mouth of Ronom need Snow basics to exist, but don't care about other Snow spells/permanents.
3.) Cards like Abominable Treefolk, Conifer Wurm, Spirit of the Aldergard, and Blizzard Brawl that improve slightly in combination with other Snow cards, but they're definitely good enough with just Snow lands and don't require a single other Snow spell/permanent in the deck to be fine - even good.
4.) Cards like Frost Augur, Rime Tender, and Iceberg Cancrix that get a bigger boost from other Snow spells/permanents in addition to just lands - possibly pushing them from fringe in a generic deck with Snow basics to good in a Snow archetype.
Unfortunately, only the latter two categories really "make" a Snow archetype imo; the previous two are support. Too bad Narfi, Betrayer King isn't a Simic card.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Oh, I just remembered another card that could lend to the creation of a "Snow archetype" - The Three Seasons. While not Snow itself, it is sort of an engine. It wouldn't be good enough with just Snow basics, but it could become a draw-two in a deck jam-packed with Snow cards. Still... it's a bit underpowered imo.