I'd play Nyx Weaver before Grisly Salvage and I'm not just saying that because I adore the card. It has a relevant defensive body which is exactly what a turtly deck like this wants. Unanswered, this guy will plop 10 cards (including dredgers!) into your yard in short order. Being able to cast Spider Spawning (or Gnaw to the Bone) 3 times is often back breaking.
How about Codex Shredder? It's a Nyx Weaver that costs two less, is colorless, and cannot be destroyed by damage effects (meaning it doesn't have a body). It can double as a (slow) win con for pillow fort or control, because who needs creatures?
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If you end up with graveyard goodstuff more often than grave.dec, that's probably a symptom of the size of your cube more than a reflection on the value of those cards. Weaver is exactly the kind of engine the graveyard deck wants. Being good in generic midrange decks is what makes the card truly playable.
I am trying to rate the graveyard/dredge etc... archetypes and it just seems very difficult to evaluate without actually putting cards in and testing a deck. Since I don't really have any cards for this particular archetype in my cube currently, it would be a huge swap for my cube, and not the playstyle many of my mates typically try, so not sure if it is good.
How many cards are needed to be added to make this a viable archetype? Green and Black are the main colors that get this, but you can also add in some blue cards and some red cards and even some white (flashback stuff)
I am hoping it can be a viable archetype without having to completely deviate the 2 main colors because what about supporting other things.
is there like a CORE set of cards that are necessary and then a set of cards that can be added for additional support but don't make or break it?
I just pulled out a whole bunch of cards and i'm already looking at like 50 adds, which seems like a ginormous swap, and frankly not doable with out changing the whole mindset of the entire cube (kind of a disspointment)
Hey, thanks for the replies... yes as i started looking through all my cards I pulled a bunch and then still had more that i was going to order. Then started to panic a bit that the sheer amount of cards was too much.
looking at Noob's post only 12 cards seems pretty easy to adjust to but then there were a bunch of other cards which seemed like they could add value because they have dredge/scavenge/flashback/Unearth/Threshold etc...
Don't forget Hermit Druid. I don't support this archetype but the Druid is pretty good in my cube nonetheless. I think it would fit in this archetype comfortably.
Thanks Squirrely, I am somewhat surprised you didn't put Worm Harvest as a core include...
I thought for this whole thing to really work, the Spider Spawning & Worm Harvest were the big win conditions no? Is the archetype effective if you just have mulchy type stuff with dredge/flashback & recursion?
Yeah multiplayer is definitely a bit different in that its harder to deal damage efficiently (trading) and little 1/2 or 1/1 tokens can be less strong as they dwindle.
I like to differentiate between Dredge and Reanimator. For Dredge, you're generally looking to fill the yard with stuff like Hermit Druid or Commune with the Gods. Then you get to power out an early Nemesis of Mortals. If you hit any acceleration,or if you go the tokens route, then you get to cast hopefully a thresholden (thresheld?) Grizzly Fate.
In reanimator, you're still looking to dump creatures, but you're also trying to keep your opponent off balance by killing their stuff too. Once you're ready (either with a fatty in your yard, or theirs) you get to attach an Animate Dead or cast Reanimate. In either deck Revenant looks like a card that would fit in well.
Two different avenues, but both decks are trying to [nearly] accomplish the same thing. I have both archetypes in my cube, though they generally get smooshed together so GB looks more like a graveyard value deck than a specific Reanimator/Dredge.
So I know this is an old thread but it is almost 5 years later ( ) and we got a lot of extra stuff for this archetype which I think deserve another discussion. New stuff of the top of my head:
I'd say definitely give it another shot. Have you tried many of these cards? I didn't know about gorging vulture and I think I night try it out. I like that it both mills and has incidental life gain, the two things that black loves. I do wonder about cards like stitcher's supplier, does it do enough to justify it's inclusion?
Also, I think if I were to include any of the dredgers the strongest one would be Stinkweed Imp. I'm just a bit afraid of it's power against green decks, where you can just repeatedly bring it back and trade with their beefy beaters. It just seems too hard for certain decks to deal with but maybe I'm wrong.
I haven't seen you guys mention three Golgari cards that I would think are great for this archetype: Acolyte of Affliction, Golgari Findbroker, and Baloth Null. Why not? They seem like slam-dunks for any grindy, graveyard value deck, and even though Findbroker's mana cost is fairly restrictive, green decks are often the most equipped to pull this off.
Main reason for me is the fact that I only have two cards per guild and if I want to support this archtype they need to be Spider Spawning and Nyx Weaver.
I've been thinking about my GB section more lately. I feel like currently the graveyard strategy doesn't really get there, you often have to work hard to get your yard filled, and then the payoff isn't huge. Like, you would often just be better off ignoring the graveyard stuff and just going for The Rock type of GB strategy. I can envision a GB midrange with a slight reanimator theme also being strong (especially now with Void Beckoner and Titanoth Rex but I haven't seen it succeed yet. The new Skull Prophet is also a great card in that type of deck.
For people who have found this graveyard based strategy to be successful, what kind of enablers have you found essential and what type of payoffs? Have people found Nemesis of Mortals strong? I've just found cards like Grizzly Fate to start lagging behind these days and general cards that gain incremental value from graveyards to also be lagging behind. Maybe the strategy is just not strong enough for my cube?
I really like the idea of having a GB graveyard based deck, but I haven't been able to make it work yet. I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts.
GB graveyard decks are almost always better with blue. Looters and cards like Chart a Course get the cards you want in the yard, and even outside of reanimation orientated strategies you want blue filtering to find Spider Spawning or whatever. With looting you can play better reanimation targets too (Trostani's Summoner, Pelakka Wurm, Eldrazi, etc.).
Without blue you're overly reliant on fragile repeated mill like Nyx Weaver (Skull Prophet seems decent, but can't block and live) or one shot grave filling that aren't really worth playing outside of milling.
Nemesis of Mortals is around the same level as other green 5-6 drops in graveyard decks and outside of them it's not a contest. Not having trample is a big issue.
I cut Grizzly Fate recently. Most of the decks it's supposed to be good in often sat around 5-6 cards in the yard for most of the game, and even in the games I had threshold it's not especially powerful considering the same deck can also reanimate Trostani's Summoner repeatably with less setup in game.
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How many cards are needed to be added to make this a viable archetype? Green and Black are the main colors that get this, but you can also add in some blue cards and some red cards and even some white (flashback stuff)
I am hoping it can be a viable archetype without having to completely deviate the 2 main colors because what about supporting other things.
is there like a CORE set of cards that are necessary and then a set of cards that can be added for additional support but don't make or break it?
I just pulled out a whole bunch of cards and i'm already looking at like 50 adds, which seems like a ginormous swap, and frankly not doable with out changing the whole mindset of the entire cube (kind of a disspointment)
thanks
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Cards I'm running that are at their best in the grave deck but are servicible elsewhere:
I really don't think it's a huge commitment to support this deck since most of the cards that are good in it are decent in other decks too.
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looking at Noob's post only 12 cards seems pretty easy to adjust to but then there were a bunch of other cards which seemed like they could add value because they have dredge/scavenge/flashback/Unearth/Threshold etc...
Flashback Cards:
Not all of those are ideal, but being able to have a cast of cards that are in your yard that can be played I thought was the whole point.
Scavenge Cards:
Obviously some of these are not that good... but I like the mechanic and having these creatures in the yard wouldn't be the worst thing.
Dredge:
there are probably 2 or 3 that would be auto include here.
Unearth
Threshold
a range of beater guys, reanimate / pump / wrath effects in here that would assuredly all be active quickly.
Other Graveyard Cares:
Obviously some in here are part of the CORE set of cards to use, but there are others which add to the indecision.
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I thought for this whole thing to really work, the Spider Spawning & Worm Harvest were the big win conditions no? Is the archetype effective if you just have mulchy type stuff with dredge/flashback & recursion?
Yeah multiplayer is definitely a bit different in that its harder to deal damage efficiently (trading) and little 1/2 or 1/1 tokens can be less strong as they dwindle.
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In reanimator, you're still looking to dump creatures, but you're also trying to keep your opponent off balance by killing their stuff too. Once you're ready (either with a fatty in your yard, or theirs) you get to attach an Animate Dead or cast Reanimate. In either deck Revenant looks like a card that would fit in well.
Two different avenues, but both decks are trying to [nearly] accomplish the same thing. I have both archetypes in my cube, though they generally get smooshed together so GB looks more like a graveyard value deck than a specific Reanimator/Dredge.
Card that fill the graveyard:
Syr Konrad, the Grim
Grapple with the Past
Mire Triton
Gorging Vulture
Stitcher's Supplier
Mindwrack Harpy
Winding Way
Ransack the Lab
Win cons:
Lotleth Giant
Laboratory Maniac
Syr Konrad, the Grim
Other:
Mother Bear
First-Sphere Gargantua
Chainweb Aracnir
Pharika's Spawn
Is it worth another shot?
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Also, I think if I were to include any of the dredgers the strongest one would be Stinkweed Imp. I'm just a bit afraid of it's power against green decks, where you can just repeatedly bring it back and trade with their beefy beaters. It just seems too hard for certain decks to deal with but maybe I'm wrong.
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Delve, reanimation, raise-dead, spawning, konrad, and reach of branches are my payoffs.
Oh, and I forgot Murderous Cut, Roar of the Wurm and Eternal Witness are in there too.
I am also thinking Groundskeeper (retrace!) might be good. Also, Psychic Spiral is another wincon, either be decking your opponent or targeting yourself with Syr Konrad, the Grim in play.
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For people who have found this graveyard based strategy to be successful, what kind of enablers have you found essential and what type of payoffs? Have people found Nemesis of Mortals strong? I've just found cards like Grizzly Fate to start lagging behind these days and general cards that gain incremental value from graveyards to also be lagging behind. Maybe the strategy is just not strong enough for my cube?
I really like the idea of having a GB graveyard based deck, but I haven't been able to make it work yet. I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts.
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Without blue you're overly reliant on fragile repeated mill like Nyx Weaver (Skull Prophet seems decent, but can't block and live) or one shot grave filling that aren't really worth playing outside of milling.
Nemesis of Mortals is around the same level as other green 5-6 drops in graveyard decks and outside of them it's not a contest. Not having trample is a big issue.
I cut Grizzly Fate recently. Most of the decks it's supposed to be good in often sat around 5-6 cards in the yard for most of the game, and even in the games I had threshold it's not especially powerful considering the same deck can also reanimate Trostani's Summoner repeatably with less setup in game.