Willbender is one of the first cards that I think of when I think "overly romanticized cards from the past"
And I think it's a good thread topic. What cards are "overly romanticized" from the past? Have you fallen out of love with certain popular cards? Or did you never understand them at all?
My pick: Pestilence and Pyrohemia.
I just don't get who wants these cards. They represent way too much mana and damage to your own creatures for aggro to really want them. They represent way too much mana and damage to you for control to really want them (seriously, spending a turn and half to sweep the board for a card AND 3-4 damage seems crazy to me)
Which leaves decks that can keep bigger creatures on the board and can use Pestilence to clear away hordes. That's midrange, and midrange needs almost no help. Midrange has access to almost everything, including cheap defense creatures and control's 2-for-1 spells. Why does it need Pestilence too? I guess you can combo with Lashknife Barrier, but that's a specific combo, and I don't want to count on it in a 528 card cube.
I like this thread. It'll make me think long and hard about cards that I have in my cube that end up being mentioned a lot here.
Capsize for me. Still shows up in a lot of lists and I can't think of any good reason other than nostalgia. Both modes are horribly inefficient, and I can't imagine the card having nearly enough of an effect on enough games to warrant inclusion.
Despite the fact that none of my friends ever played with Psychatog outside of Cube, it's a fairly revered card in my playgroup for whatever reason.
In terms of things my playgroup actually uses, look no further than Huntmaster of the Fells, which somehow finds its way into every RG deck here thanks to everyone's "fond" memories of INN-RTR Jund.
EDIT: Didn't see this was in the Pauper forum, my apologies! Seconded Pestilence.
Despite the fact that none of my friends ever played with Psychatog outside of Cube, it's a fairly revered card in my playgroup for whatever reason.
In terms of things my playgroup actually uses, look no further than Huntmaster of the Fells, which somehow finds its way into every RG deck here thanks to everyone's "fond" memories of INN-RTR Jund.
EDIT: Didn't see this was in the Pauper forum, my apologies! Seconded Pestilence.
Tog's valid here, since this is a Peasant discussion. Also yeah, I agree with basically everyone else here that Pestilence and Pyrohemia are overrated. Capsize is pretty decent though since it has at least some degree of versatility, especially later in the game when you can lock down a permanent (or even two!) Imagine, ignoring Forbid for a moment, if there were a Cancel with buyback 3; practically everyone would want to play it if they were blue, even though neither mode is particularly efficient.
I like Pestilence more than Pyrohemia, mostly due the bodies in black are larger than ones in red as well as having access to Demonic Tutor. With Enlightened Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Guardian of the Guildpact, White's walls and lifegain, Lashknife barrier, etc you get a pretty interesting archetype that has come together more times that it seems like it should. I think it's due to most pieces of the deck being pretty innocuous while drafting...Chimeric Idol for instance or Darksteel Sentinel. It's like building this crazy juggernaut of a deck out the draft's dregs.
Pestilence in general is fairly difficult card to deck and play, but few other cards will completely warp a game than an active Pestilence. It's not a staple by any stretch, but I like it more than just running a Dakmor Plague.
Capsize isn't an allstar by any means, but I like giving Blue some late game utility. There's not a lot of big blue spells aside from card draw. If we had something game changing like Evacuation (wash out doesn't count), I'd be less inclined to include Capsize in my cube. However, it's never stopped doing a reasonable job for me.
Oh, and willbender is garbage. I can't remember a time when that card didn't suck. EDIT: maybe it's not garbage, but 5 mana is a lot for the effect and a nearly irrelevant body.
I've been holding out on Capsize in my cube since it's still incredibly powerful, even though really not too efficient.
And I still like Willbender if you can reasonably support morph. It's like an echo card or level up or something, since it can start out as a 2/2 for 3 (below average but decent enough) than can also pay an additional 1U to help 2-for-0 or better somebody. I mean, it does something before you pay the full five for it. but I get everyone's concerns.
I hate that Willbender flips up to a 1/2. I could get behind paying 4U (yes, it is in installments) for its effect if it at least left me with a creature that can do more than chump block.
Also, 2/2 for 3 is never "decent enough", they haven't printed actual Gray Ogre since 1995. Or Scathe Zombies since 2007.
Anyway, this topic has a lot of overlap with "good in constructed, bad in cube" cards:
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Land Tax
Sylvan Library
Brainstorm
Though I do think everything but Vial is still good enough to merit inclusion/discussion; just overrated and drafted way too high in packs.
Ok, I've never played Cube, but I can say that Pestilence decks were hilarious back in high school. You throw down Cemetery Gate, then Pestilence, then kill all the things. Add in Urza's Armor for extra giggles.
Fanatic has been kind of crushed by rules.
Ophidian is a worse version of Scroll Thief, which is iffy. Not unusable, but iffy.
Whispers is just outclassed.
Dynamo just doesn't fit well into the format. There aren't great ramp targets or rewards.
Gnomes doesn't really keep up with the aggressive decks. The damage rules don't help either.
Altar needs more building around, and then falls into the same problem as dynamo.
Pestilence and Pyrohemia are build-around-y archetype enablers, much as inscho described upthread. I don't think they're "overly romanticized" at all - have the people criticizing them actually tried them? I don't mean that to sound hostile but they're the sort of cards where theorycrafting doesn't necessarily cover how good they can be in practice.
Like:
They represent way too much mana and damage to you for control to really want them (seriously, spending a turn and half to sweep the board for a card AND 3-4 damage seems crazy to me)
misses the bit where your opponent's opportunities to develop their board are severely curtailed for the rest of the game.
Both cards were in my original cube, but I took them quite a while ago (like 5-6 years now). I don't specifically understand the part about stopping them from developing the board, because you can't have Pestilence out without any creatures on board. Is this a situation where you are keeping a dude on the board with your Pestilence, which feels hard to do early, or you're leaving them their biggest creature, which seems very useful?
My pick: Pestilence and Pyrohemia.
I just don't get who wants these cards. They represent way too much mana and damage to your own creatures for aggro to really want them. They represent way too much mana and damage to you for control to really want them (seriously, spending a turn and half to sweep the board for a card AND 3-4 damage seems crazy to me)
The point is in keeping it on board somehow (preferably by having a bigger creature than your opponent (or an indestructible/regenerator/protection from black), otherwise leaving one of their creatures alive or using manlands/other tricks) or just keeping it on the table as a threat. The other two uses are to kill opponents that are low on life and slowly draining your opponent's life while playing lifegain yourself.
I don't specifically understand the part about stopping them from developing the board, because you can't have Pestilence out without any creatures on board. Is this a situation where you are keeping a dude on the board with your Pestilence, which feels hard to do early, or you're leaving them their biggest creature, which seems very useful?
You don't have to kill everything. In fact, you can choose not to kill anything at all. Either way, as long as Pestilence is on the table, you basically have "B: Kill every creature with one toughness" and "BB: Kill every creature with two toughness", mainly. Killing bigger stuff can be useful too, but it tends to be painful without lifegain. Combo with Sangromancer (not Peasant-legal, but I'm sure there are plenty of options for Peasant) or other cards that reward you for killing creatures for extra fun.
Capsize for me. Still shows up in a lot of lists and I can't think of any good reason other than nostalgia. Both modes are horribly inefficient, and I can't imagine the card having nearly enough of an effect on enough games to warrant inclusion.
Capsize is useful for slower, longer games, and extremely multifunctional. The obvious use is that it's repeatable temporary removal for anything. Creature in the way? Bounce it. Enchantment being annoying? Bounce it. Land somehow annoying you? Bounce it. Any auras on the target will fall off. The secondary use is to repeat your own comes-into-play abilities. The third use, rare but under the rights conditions very powerful, is just bouncing the opponent's land (preferably after he's played his low-cost threats and you've disposed of them) to keep them from reaching high amounts of mana while you can keep playing lands yourself. If this situation occurs when you have 12+ mana per turn, you can bounce faster than they can play it, leaving them with less and less mana. As an extra bonus, in addition to the 6-mana repeated bounce it can also function as a simple Boomerang for 1UU.
Despite the fact that none of my friends ever played with Psychatog outside of Cube, it's a fairly revered card in my playgroup for whatever reason.
Psychatog is a very dangerous threat that grows more dangerous over time. If you have a hand of 5 cards and 1 card in your graveyard, without spending any mana it can suddenly grow into a 9/10, which it tends to do when not blocked and your opponent is at 9 life or less. If they block it, you can discard cards and/or exile cards from your graveyard to kill the blocker if you find it important enough. Nothing is guaranteed to survive an encounter with the Psychatog. As time passes, more cards end up in your graveyard, giving you more 'free' activations. Being black also makes it immune to a lot of removal. All of that for 1UB.
...and that's without actually abusing it. If you play it in self-mill (which happens to be the main theme of the block it was printed in, hence its historical power), it becomes utterly insane. Your opponent better have some kind of removal spell for it, because anything that blocks it will die without killing it (unless it has deathtouch or the like).
I haven't seen enough games recently where 6 mana to only affect one of my opponent's permanents doesn't cause you to fall behind. Games just don't grind that often anymore while remaining competitive for both players here outside of control v control. Even then? Idk.
What about guardian of the guildpact?
Remember when this was utterly insane? I do. But are those days finally over? I don't feel inclined to pick this guy anymore unless I have sweepers.
It's very bland, doesn't attack for a whole lot, and isn't easily buffed. Blocks all day but for four mana I want a card that does more for an archetype or beats faces in. Guardian would have been replaced by now if white's pool wasn't so shallow.
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What about guardian of the fuildpact?
Remember when this was utterly insane? I do.
Been playing since before the original Ravnica block, and I don't recall Guardian of the Guildpact ever being utterly insane in any context. It's nice to run with 'damage all' cards like Pestilence, but beyond that it's just another annoying creature. Cards like Unquestioned Authority have been better for the all-round protection, while Diplomatic Immunity (or Ravnica block's own Shielding Plax) gives any creature far better protection from spells.
For the general 'can't touch this' creature I've always preferred Harbinger of Spring, though it is a bit on the expensive side (then again, so is Guardian of the Guildpact). It has 2 less toughness, but that's mostly irrelevant when it practically has protection from creatures (unless your opponent happens to be running something obnoxious like Pestilence).
The guardian is solid. I'm still happy to cube it. The thing I like is that it's a great blocker, but can also start chipping away at a life total under a stalemated board since its like 75% unblockable. It's a role player, but not uncuttable if wizards starts giving white some goodies.
I hate that Willbender flips up to a 1/2. I could get behind paying 4U (yes, it is in installments) for its effect if it at least left me with a creature that can do more than chump block.
Also, 2/2 for 3 is never "decent enough", they haven't printed actual Gray Ogre since 1995. Or Scathe Zombies since 2007.
Anyway, this topic has a lot of overlap with "good in constructed, bad in cube" cards:
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Land Tax Sylvan Library
Brainstorm
Though I do think everything but Vial is still good enough to merit inclusion/discussion; just overrated and drafted way too high in packs.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here, legitimately want to know... have you ever cast Sylvan Library before?
And I think it's a good thread topic. What cards are "overly romanticized" from the past? Have you fallen out of love with certain popular cards? Or did you never understand them at all?
My pick: Pestilence and Pyrohemia.
I just don't get who wants these cards. They represent way too much mana and damage to your own creatures for aggro to really want them. They represent way too much mana and damage to you for control to really want them (seriously, spending a turn and half to sweep the board for a card AND 3-4 damage seems crazy to me)
Which leaves decks that can keep bigger creatures on the board and can use Pestilence to clear away hordes. That's midrange, and midrange needs almost no help. Midrange has access to almost everything, including cheap defense creatures and control's 2-for-1 spells. Why does it need Pestilence too? I guess you can combo with Lashknife Barrier, but that's a specific combo, and I don't want to count on it in a 528 card cube.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Fallout Commander
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Capsize for me. Still shows up in a lot of lists and I can't think of any good reason other than nostalgia. Both modes are horribly inefficient, and I can't imagine the card having nearly enough of an effect on enough games to warrant inclusion.
CubeTutor: www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/72
Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=512410
Despite the fact that none of my friends ever played with Psychatog outside of Cube, it's a fairly revered card in my playgroup for whatever reason.
In terms of things my playgroup actually uses, look no further than Huntmaster of the Fells, which somehow finds its way into every RG deck here thanks to everyone's "fond" memories of INN-RTR Jund.
EDIT: Didn't see this was in the Pauper forum, my apologies! Seconded Pestilence.
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Modern
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Standard
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Tog's valid here, since this is a Peasant discussion. Also yeah, I agree with basically everyone else here that Pestilence and Pyrohemia are overrated. Capsize is pretty decent though since it has at least some degree of versatility, especially later in the game when you can lock down a permanent (or even two!) Imagine, ignoring Forbid for a moment, if there were a Cancel with buyback 3; practically everyone would want to play it if they were blue, even though neither mode is particularly efficient.
Pestilence in general is fairly difficult card to deck and play, but few other cards will completely warp a game than an active Pestilence. It's not a staple by any stretch, but I like it more than just running a Dakmor Plague.
Capsize isn't an allstar by any means, but I like giving Blue some late game utility. There's not a lot of big blue spells aside from card draw. If we had something game changing like Evacuation (wash out doesn't count), I'd be less inclined to include Capsize in my cube. However, it's never stopped doing a reasonable job for me.
And I still like Willbender if you can reasonably support morph. It's like an echo card or level up or something, since it can start out as a 2/2 for 3 (below average but decent enough) than can also pay an additional 1U to help 2-for-0 or better somebody. I mean, it does something before you pay the full five for it. but I get everyone's concerns.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Fallout Commander
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Also, 2/2 for 3 is never "decent enough", they haven't printed actual Gray Ogre since 1995. Or Scathe Zombies since 2007.
Anyway, this topic has a lot of overlap with "good in constructed, bad in cube" cards:
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Land Tax
Sylvan Library
Brainstorm
Though I do think everything but Vial is still good enough to merit inclusion/discussion; just overrated and drafted way too high in packs.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Fanatic has been kind of crushed by rules.
Ophidian is a worse version of Scroll Thief, which is iffy. Not unusable, but iffy.
Whispers is just outclassed.
Dynamo just doesn't fit well into the format. There aren't great ramp targets or rewards.
Gnomes doesn't really keep up with the aggressive decks. The damage rules don't help either.
Altar needs more building around, and then falls into the same problem as dynamo.
Also, Fires of Yavimaya and Dark Ritual haven't been great, but I'm ignoring that for the time being.
Both cards were in my original cube, but I took them quite a while ago (like 5-6 years now). I don't specifically understand the part about stopping them from developing the board, because you can't have Pestilence out without any creatures on board. Is this a situation where you are keeping a dude on the board with your Pestilence, which feels hard to do early, or you're leaving them their biggest creature, which seems very useful?
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Fallout Commander
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Talking about cards crushed by rules, poor Eladamri's Vineyard.
The point is in keeping it on board somehow (preferably by having a bigger creature than your opponent (or an indestructible/regenerator/protection from black), otherwise leaving one of their creatures alive or using manlands/other tricks) or just keeping it on the table as a threat. The other two uses are to kill opponents that are low on life and slowly draining your opponent's life while playing lifegain yourself.
You don't have to kill everything. In fact, you can choose not to kill anything at all. Either way, as long as Pestilence is on the table, you basically have "B: Kill every creature with one toughness" and "BB: Kill every creature with two toughness", mainly. Killing bigger stuff can be useful too, but it tends to be painful without lifegain. Combo with Sangromancer (not Peasant-legal, but I'm sure there are plenty of options for Peasant) or other cards that reward you for killing creatures for extra fun.
Capsize is useful for slower, longer games, and extremely multifunctional. The obvious use is that it's repeatable temporary removal for anything. Creature in the way? Bounce it. Enchantment being annoying? Bounce it. Land somehow annoying you? Bounce it. Any auras on the target will fall off. The secondary use is to repeat your own comes-into-play abilities. The third use, rare but under the rights conditions very powerful, is just bouncing the opponent's land (preferably after he's played his low-cost threats and you've disposed of them) to keep them from reaching high amounts of mana while you can keep playing lands yourself. If this situation occurs when you have 12+ mana per turn, you can bounce faster than they can play it, leaving them with less and less mana. As an extra bonus, in addition to the 6-mana repeated bounce it can also function as a simple Boomerang for 1UU.
Psychatog is a very dangerous threat that grows more dangerous over time. If you have a hand of 5 cards and 1 card in your graveyard, without spending any mana it can suddenly grow into a 9/10, which it tends to do when not blocked and your opponent is at 9 life or less. If they block it, you can discard cards and/or exile cards from your graveyard to kill the blocker if you find it important enough. Nothing is guaranteed to survive an encounter with the Psychatog. As time passes, more cards end up in your graveyard, giving you more 'free' activations. Being black also makes it immune to a lot of removal. All of that for 1UB.
...and that's without actually abusing it. If you play it in self-mill (which happens to be the main theme of the block it was printed in, hence its historical power), it becomes utterly insane. Your opponent better have some kind of removal spell for it, because anything that blocks it will die without killing it (unless it has deathtouch or the like).
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Remember when this was utterly insane? I do. But are those days finally over? I don't feel inclined to pick this guy anymore unless I have sweepers.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Multiplayer Cube
Been playing since before the original Ravnica block, and I don't recall Guardian of the Guildpact ever being utterly insane in any context. It's nice to run with 'damage all' cards like Pestilence, but beyond that it's just another annoying creature. Cards like Unquestioned Authority have been better for the all-round protection, while Diplomatic Immunity (or Ravnica block's own Shielding Plax) gives any creature far better protection from spells.
For the general 'can't touch this' creature I've always preferred Harbinger of Spring, though it is a bit on the expensive side (then again, so is Guardian of the Guildpact). It has 2 less toughness, but that's mostly irrelevant when it practically has protection from creatures (unless your opponent happens to be running something obnoxious like Pestilence).
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Not trying to be hyperbolic here, legitimately want to know... have you ever cast Sylvan Library before?
4 life per card usually sucks unless you are under zero pressure
Reordering the top 3 usually sucks if you can't re-shuffle (which is the default scenario in peasant cubes).
Adds up to a mediocre card.