Anyone looking to revisit this thread? I'll toss out a number of "iconic" cards from the past that I think just aren't cutting it anymore:
Agree:
I've never played Capsize, it was bad even when I started with my cube 5 years ago. Far too low impact for the insane cost.
Somewhat agree:
Can somewhat agree with Yavimaya Elder, though I don't think he's that bad. I still play him, but I thought about cutting him for a while. It's a 2 power body that gives you card advantage when he dies and the double green cost isn't that hard to pay for green decks. It's good value and it's not like slower ramp decks are steamrolled by aggro decks in peasant, and I support aggro a lot. But yes, it's mediocre only.
Always found Opportunity to be boring, but I don't think there are much better massive instant speed card draw options available. It's a finisher for a counter/control deck obviously and I don't think it's worse than something like Chemister's Insight in such a deck, just different.
Deep Analysis I can also agree with, but I still play it as in combination with looters it's pretty decent. But I agree that the life loss hurts and that there are lots of great card advantage options in blue, so I wouldn't blame anyone for not playing it.
Hymn to Tourach is a matter of taste, but from my experience the often mentioned problem that it ends the game when your opponent discards all his lands on turn 2 almost never happens. Usually you get one good and one bad card and that's it. It obviously is random and I can understand if people don't like that, but it's not as overpowered on average as many claim. And Wrench Mind? That card is just bad and that's why no one plays it, which only shows that Hymn isn't that op.
Disagree:
Lightning Mauler is a relatively unique card, so I don't see how a run-off-the-mill cards like War-Name Aspirant can replace it. There are more than enough spots for your typical 3/2 with counter two drop in red (I also support an aggressive counter archetype), no need to cut a more interesting card like mauler.
Guttersnipe is a decent payoff for spells matter decks. It comes with a body that can help in some cases and it does the job it has to do pretty well. Nothing you need to run, but not terrible either considering there aren't that many cards to support the archetype.
Psychatog is great in the right deck. It's a card you can't just put into any ub deck without thinking about it, but in the right deck it's explosive. Nothing you need to run if you want a more versatile card, but if people know how to play with it it's great and - very important - a lot of fun.
Worn Powerstone is a good card for slow mana hungry decks that don't run green. A good example would be blink/bounce decks, you need all the mana you can get in those decks and bouncing and replaying Lone Missionary is a lot better than Pristine Talisman.
Strongly disagree:
Clone was and still is a great card, strongly disagree that it belongs into this thread. Getting the best creature on the battlefield with etb effect is easily worth 4 mana in most games. And it's even splashable. This is still a possible first pick in my cube.
Disagree with Cultivate, very good ramp spell that gives card advantage and the additional land can definitely make a big difference for a true ramp deck that plays lots of 5+ cmc cards. I like it a lot more than Rampant Growth, there are enough +1 mana options that cost less.
Maybe I should re-try Psychatog, but it just requires such a high deckbuilding price, I feel like most of the time your deck will just be better if you don't go in on the psychatog plan. It would sometimes go off, but it is a lot harder to make it work in limited than it was in constructed where you had cards like Upheaval and Fact of Fiction at your ready.
I guess clone really depends on the overall environment. Its just often very bad on turn 4 against a deck that is going aggro on you. Like, copying an Ahn Crop Crasher is not where I want to be.
Cultivate does give card advantage but it's card advantage in the source of a land, which isn't nearly as valuable. Like it's not green divination, because you can't play it later in the game and start outpacing your opponent with cards. I think rampant growth fits in a lot more deck strategies, like I would be happy to play it in every green deck, whereas cultivate I wouldn't want in a midrange beatdown deck, the type that tops out at 5 mana and beats down with cards like Blastoderm and Phantom Centaur. I'd be happy to play rampant growth in that deck in order to power out these strong creatures a turn ahead of my opponent.
The decks that want Cultivate really want Cultivate; the decks that want Rampant Growth can often do without. Some decks can be ridiculously mana hungry.
Deep Analysis is starting to feel on the weaker side, especially if you just want to hard cast it twice, but it's flashback is interesting enough I doubt I'll cut it soon.
Hymn to Tourach is good, but I don't think it has led to any non-games. CC costs are just harsh to play early, especially when mono-B isn't popular in my cube.
In my experience Clone tends to go into decks with a lot of interaction, so you never really need to Clone inefficiently. And the vast majority of 5+ drops are very good clone targets, not even mentioning its utility.
Psychatog is a very skill intensive card for both sides. If you know how to play with it and your opponent doesn't it's insane. Other scenarios it's good but not great, but it can brute force some wins if you can enable it at all.
My UB section is currently Baleful Strix, Ribbons of Night, and Tomebound Lich, and I don't like how Ribbons and Tomebound Lich are both pretty much strictly control cards, so I think I am going to cut Tomebound Lich for either Psychatog or Infiltrator. Which would you guys recommend?
But I cannot speak authoritatively when it comes to recommendations. Shadowmage Infiltrator is a *solid* card but what pushes Dr Teeth above it for me is also acting as a discard outlet for reanimator in a pinch and the considerably higher ceiling despite the lower floor.
A few more multi color cards I think are over-romanticized from a cube perspective: Shardless Agent - Could be such a sweet card in so many other color combos, but this is probably the worst color combo for it. Cascading into a counterspell feels so so bad, and cascading into an elf is okay depending on the situation, but is often just not where I want to be.
Terminate - This is the best of it's kind when you cast it. But it's really only marginally better than Cast Down, Go for the Throat, and Ultimate Price, which are all only single color. In general I just don't like having removal in my guild sections because it's so much more restrictive of the decks that get to play it and it not much better than the mono color alternative. I'd rather have a card that can only be found as a multicolor card like Mayhem Devil.
Lightning Helix - Same idea as terminate. This is a sweet card, but I just don't think it's needed. RW is definitively an aggro color combo in my cube, and so the life gain here is not super relevant. The problem is that RW doesn't really have good alternatives though.
I feel like the 'just good removal' spells have been eschewed from most posters lists here.
Shardless Agent might be in a colour combination where you have the most duds available but you can easily build Simic without even bothering with any of the cheap counterspells that make if whiff, especially if you go heavier on green. Same with mana dorks. It has wider applicability than Psychatog but similarly, you do want to build around it to some extent. It might not be strong enough to be worth making your deck revolve around itself but you can just make a more beatdown style strategy a priority, for instance.
Though, I will admit that Simic is the guild where I feel most tempted to make changes when new cards get added to the pool since what I run is solid and even interesting to an extent but kind of generic (Shardless Agent and Trygon Predator).
I just can't see a deck becoming better by being built around a 1 of Shardless Agent. Particularly because and UG deck I make that would care about a sorcery speed 2/2, would be playing on a tempo axis where counterspells are important.
Vari, if you are looking to mix up your Simic guild I have been a big fan of the three that I currently have, River Hoopoe, Tatyova Benthic Druid, and Frilled Mystic (although I think having rare lands makes frilled mystic more viable).
River Hoopoe is really solid at shutting down a lot of early aggression, and then as the game goes later it is a really nice mana sink. Tatyova is a bit vulnerable but it can really win you games, and my play group just loves to play her. Frilled Mystic is hard on the mana, but super back breaking and a really unique effect.
Hi all. I just went through calibretto's list compiling the average peasant cube. To my shock and horror, cavern harpy, one of my favorite cards, did not make the list in 680 cube. I feel it has been exceedingly strong as a crystal shard impersonator in my 720 peasant cube and that it pairs well with some of the most busted u/b creatures as this color pairing, especially black, has creatures with some of the strongest enters the battlefield effects.
As a constructed legacy player, I still see the card shine in Aluren decks and have been viewing it as a powerhouse. However, after seeing calibretto's list, I am wondering if I am "overly romanticizing" this card's effect. What are your thoughts on the card and why have you been taking it out of your cubes?
Yeah I think harpy is generally just too slow for my cube at least. And dimir is a pretty stacked guild so I think that makes it even rarer for it to appear in peoples cubes.
Comparing it to Crystal Shard, it costs double the mana to use and a life each time. And one of the strongest things about Crystal Shard is that it puts such a tax on your opponent, they essentially have to be keeping up mana or their guys are going to be bounced. Plus crystal shard can be used at instant speed to save a creature from removal.
Agree:
I've never played Capsize, it was bad even when I started with my cube 5 years ago. Far too low impact for the insane cost.
Somewhat agree:
Can somewhat agree with Yavimaya Elder, though I don't think he's that bad. I still play him, but I thought about cutting him for a while. It's a 2 power body that gives you card advantage when he dies and the double green cost isn't that hard to pay for green decks. It's good value and it's not like slower ramp decks are steamrolled by aggro decks in peasant, and I support aggro a lot. But yes, it's mediocre only.
Always found Opportunity to be boring, but I don't think there are much better massive instant speed card draw options available. It's a finisher for a counter/control deck obviously and I don't think it's worse than something like Chemister's Insight in such a deck, just different.
Deep Analysis I can also agree with, but I still play it as in combination with looters it's pretty decent. But I agree that the life loss hurts and that there are lots of great card advantage options in blue, so I wouldn't blame anyone for not playing it.
Hymn to Tourach is a matter of taste, but from my experience the often mentioned problem that it ends the game when your opponent discards all his lands on turn 2 almost never happens. Usually you get one good and one bad card and that's it. It obviously is random and I can understand if people don't like that, but it's not as overpowered on average as many claim. And Wrench Mind? That card is just bad and that's why no one plays it, which only shows that Hymn isn't that op.
Disagree:
Lightning Mauler is a relatively unique card, so I don't see how a run-off-the-mill cards like War-Name Aspirant can replace it. There are more than enough spots for your typical 3/2 with counter two drop in red (I also support an aggressive counter archetype), no need to cut a more interesting card like mauler.
Guttersnipe is a decent payoff for spells matter decks. It comes with a body that can help in some cases and it does the job it has to do pretty well. Nothing you need to run, but not terrible either considering there aren't that many cards to support the archetype.
Psychatog is great in the right deck. It's a card you can't just put into any ub deck without thinking about it, but in the right deck it's explosive. Nothing you need to run if you want a more versatile card, but if people know how to play with it it's great and - very important - a lot of fun.
Worn Powerstone is a good card for slow mana hungry decks that don't run green. A good example would be blink/bounce decks, you need all the mana you can get in those decks and bouncing and replaying Lone Missionary is a lot better than Pristine Talisman.
Strongly disagree:
Clone was and still is a great card, strongly disagree that it belongs into this thread. Getting the best creature on the battlefield with etb effect is easily worth 4 mana in most games. And it's even splashable. This is still a possible first pick in my cube.
Disagree with Cultivate, very good ramp spell that gives card advantage and the additional land can definitely make a big difference for a true ramp deck that plays lots of 5+ cmc cards. I like it a lot more than Rampant Growth, there are enough +1 mana options that cost less.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Maybe I should re-try Psychatog, but it just requires such a high deckbuilding price, I feel like most of the time your deck will just be better if you don't go in on the psychatog plan. It would sometimes go off, but it is a lot harder to make it work in limited than it was in constructed where you had cards like Upheaval and Fact of Fiction at your ready.
I guess clone really depends on the overall environment. Its just often very bad on turn 4 against a deck that is going aggro on you. Like, copying an Ahn Crop Crasher is not where I want to be.
Cultivate does give card advantage but it's card advantage in the source of a land, which isn't nearly as valuable. Like it's not green divination, because you can't play it later in the game and start outpacing your opponent with cards. I think rampant growth fits in a lot more deck strategies, like I would be happy to play it in every green deck, whereas cultivate I wouldn't want in a midrange beatdown deck, the type that tops out at 5 mana and beats down with cards like Blastoderm and Phantom Centaur. I'd be happy to play rampant growth in that deck in order to power out these strong creatures a turn ahead of my opponent.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
Deep Analysis is starting to feel on the weaker side, especially if you just want to hard cast it twice, but it's flashback is interesting enough I doubt I'll cut it soon.
Hymn to Tourach is good, but I don't think it has led to any non-games. CC costs are just harsh to play early, especially when mono-B isn't popular in my cube.
In my experience Clone tends to go into decks with a lot of interaction, so you never really need to Clone inefficiently. And the vast majority of 5+ drops are very good clone targets, not even mentioning its utility.
We've gotten so many good spells matter cards (Pteramander, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, and Murmuring Mystic in particular) that an ideal spells matter deck is 2-3 creatures away from wanting Guttersnipe.
Psychatog is a very skill intensive card for both sides. If you know how to play with it and your opponent doesn't it's insane. Other scenarios it's good but not great, but it can brute force some wins if you can enable it at all.
More or less agree everywhere else.
Yavimaya Elder is usually way too slow although he might still be ok in large cube of more than 540.
Cultivate and Kodama's Reach are still pretty good in my cube for ramp at 360.
Harrow is much worse than Cultivate/Kodama's Reach unless you heavily support landfall.
Opportunity I also cut a long time ago. As DJRedLantern said, there are so many better alternatives.
Deep Analysis I have swapped in favor of Chemister's Insight and so far I have been happy with the swap.
Clone is still in my cube but hasn't performed in quite some time, I can see it begin cut in the near future.
Hymn to Tourach I banned from my cube a long time ago. It's too swingy.
Lightning Mauler is still in my cube and has been decent, but it is the first red 2 drop that will be cut if something better arrives.
Guttersnipe still performs great in my cube in the U/R spell matter decks.
Psychatog is still great.
Worn Powerstone is better than Pristine Talisman in my cube. Ramp decks are really mana hungry.
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
My UB section is currently Baleful Strix, Ribbons of Night, and Tomebound Lich, and I don't like how Ribbons and Tomebound Lich are both pretty much strictly control cards, so I think I am going to cut Tomebound Lich for either Psychatog or Infiltrator. Which would you guys recommend?
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
But I cannot speak authoritatively when it comes to recommendations. Shadowmage Infiltrator is a *solid* card but what pushes Dr Teeth above it for me is also acting as a discard outlet for reanimator in a pinch and the considerably higher ceiling despite the lower floor.
Shardless Agent - Could be such a sweet card in so many other color combos, but this is probably the worst color combo for it. Cascading into a counterspell feels so so bad, and cascading into an elf is okay depending on the situation, but is often just not where I want to be.
Terminate - This is the best of it's kind when you cast it. But it's really only marginally better than Cast Down, Go for the Throat, and Ultimate Price, which are all only single color. In general I just don't like having removal in my guild sections because it's so much more restrictive of the decks that get to play it and it not much better than the mono color alternative. I'd rather have a card that can only be found as a multicolor card like Mayhem Devil.
Lightning Helix - Same idea as terminate. This is a sweet card, but I just don't think it's needed. RW is definitively an aggro color combo in my cube, and so the life gain here is not super relevant. The problem is that RW doesn't really have good alternatives though.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
Shardless Agent might be in a colour combination where you have the most duds available but you can easily build Simic without even bothering with any of the cheap counterspells that make if whiff, especially if you go heavier on green. Same with mana dorks. It has wider applicability than Psychatog but similarly, you do want to build around it to some extent. It might not be strong enough to be worth making your deck revolve around itself but you can just make a more beatdown style strategy a priority, for instance.
Though, I will admit that Simic is the guild where I feel most tempted to make changes when new cards get added to the pool since what I run is solid and even interesting to an extent but kind of generic (Shardless Agent and Trygon Predator).
Vari, if you are looking to mix up your Simic guild I have been a big fan of the three that I currently have, River Hoopoe, Tatyova Benthic Druid, and Frilled Mystic (although I think having rare lands makes frilled mystic more viable).
River Hoopoe is really solid at shutting down a lot of early aggression, and then as the game goes later it is a really nice mana sink. Tatyova is a bit vulnerable but it can really win you games, and my play group just loves to play her. Frilled Mystic is hard on the mana, but super back breaking and a really unique effect.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
As a constructed legacy player, I still see the card shine in Aluren decks and have been viewing it as a powerhouse. However, after seeing calibretto's list, I am wondering if I am "overly romanticizing" this card's effect. What are your thoughts on the card and why have you been taking it out of your cubes?
link for the 2019 average list. https://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/156304
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Comparing it to Crystal Shard, it costs double the mana to use and a life each time. And one of the strongest things about Crystal Shard is that it puts such a tax on your opponent, they essentially have to be keeping up mana or their guys are going to be bounced. Plus crystal shard can be used at instant speed to save a creature from removal.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant