Hello all,
I've been working on a Peasant cube for a while now and for the longest time I couldn't get the list under 800 cards. I know larger cubes tend to be pretty bad, especially with archetypes with chase cards like reanimator, so I've recently cut it down to 450 (man was that hard) and I'm having a hard time gauging if it's in a good spot after doing tons of practice drafts. If anyone would like to take a look at the list or even draft it and offer some constructive criticism, that would be great! I primarily draft 2-player cube with my brother using various 2-player methods like burn 2 and burn 4, so we have the potential to see as many cards as an 8-player draft.
The duplicate talismans were were unintentional. Is it uncommon for a full cycle of talismans or signets to be in a cube? Would it make more sense to cut it down to 5?
Great point about the aggro fixing. I'll invest in some better lands to help with that. I've been thinking about throwing in shock lands (the only lands I have a full set of right now), but it felt weird since they would be so much better than all the other lands.
The issue with playing a lot of talismans, and 2 mana rocks in general, is that it makes it too easy to play durdly decks that just load up on the strongest 4 drops and can easily go over the top of aggressive decks. Pretty much the more 2 mana rocks in your cube the harder of a time aggro will have, and the less reason there is to actually play aggro.
If you're running a full cycle of Talisman or Signets, then it's probably best to cut back on the more generic rocks. For example at 360, I'm running only nine total mana rocks at two cmc with a mix of Talisman/Signet/Generic rocks. At 450, I could see a full cycle of Signets/Talisman with an additional one or two generic rocks.
You might find this interesting. It's an average list I put together near the end of last year from all the active lists I could find here on MTGS.
You can use the filter options to filter down to get the cube to specific sizes to see what the "average" list at that size runs. Obviously cube is what you make it and what your group prefers, but it could give you some ideas on cuts/adds.
With that said, I took the liberty of comparing your list to the average list based on that data and came up with these possible change suggestions. One thing I didn't include here, but would also suggest is not forcing a cycle of mono colored lands in. Outside of blue and green, mono colored nonbasics at peasant just aren't that great and forcing a full cycle is doing yourself a real disservice. I'd prefer to have those other three slots filled with actual cards that might see play.
Thrill of Possibility -> Magma Jet
Brimstone Volley -> Burst Lightning
Fight with Fire -> Arc Trail
Rolling Thunder -> Slice and Dice
Frenzied Fugue -> Goblin Bombardment
Good suggestions, that's awesome work! Although I would definitely keeping the following cards that you suggested to cut: Territorial Hammerskull - Having some disruption is really nice for white aggro Hypnotic Sprite // Mesmeric Glare - This card is slightly awkward because of the spell costing more than the creature, but that's fine. It's a 2/1 flier on turn two if you can make it work, and if not then it's a 2 for 1. Mire Triton - Awesome card, just does it all. Brimstone Volley - Five damage burn is so insane Devoted Druid - Being able to ramp to 5 mana on turn 3 is wild Fireblade Artist - Such a good rakdos card, 2/2 haste for 2 and then additionally gives you nice reach Heroic Reinforcements - I've always found this card to be the best boros finisher
I think some of these cards are just not in the average peasant list because they came out so recently.
My biggest suggestion in terms of cube design would be cutting 1-2 cards per guild. Particularly if you are playing 2 player primarily, having a lot of multicolor cards you will just find them going around and around and not getting picked up. So replacing some of them with mono-color cards that can be played in way more decks makes the drafting experience much more pleasant. Plus, a lot of multicolor card in peasant I find that I'm just thinking "this is cool if I'm playing the color combo but it's only really marginally better than the mono color alternative". That being said these are the 2 cards from each of your guilds I would suggest cutting if you decide to:
Empyrean Eagle
Momentary Blink
Soul Manipulation
Dinrova Horror
Terminate - Would just swap out for Ultimate Price if you want a 2 mana kill spell
Garna, the Blood Flame
Voltaic Brawler
Raging Swordtooth
Qasali Pridemage
Juniper Order Ranger
Tidehollow Sculler
Angel of Despair (although if you want the reanimate target this can be a good one)
Shardless Agent
Sharktocrab
Enigma Drake
Crackling Drake
Lightning Helix - again, would rather just have incinerate, which is almost as good in an aggressive deck (which RW tends to be), but can be played in every red color combo
Rally the Peasants
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I especially enjoyed hearing the reasoning behind the advice. Helps me get a better idea for building a cube, especially one for 2-players. The point you make about guild cards being a waste of space with two players makes a lot of sense.
I used the average cube list, and a lot of the cubes used in making that list, to create the cube you see. It's a great resource and I was so happy to see it's only one set behind. While I don't agree with all the swaps (similar to DJRedLantern) there are definitely lots of swaps I'm on board with. Playing lands just for the sake of having a cycle doesn't make much sense does it.
Definitely going to go through and fine tune things and with the knowledge I've gained from this thread I'm feeling much better about it.
Were all the suggested swaps from the average cube tutor automated, or did you pick those out yourself? A lot of them make sense, but some seem to undermine archetypes I've tried to set up in favor of playing a slightly better card in a vacuum. That might be a better thing overall, I'm not sure, but it's almost like by making these changes I'm turning the cube into something more generic, less unique. Better cards will be played, but at the cost of interesting interactions and making archetypes work. Maybe the interactions I think I have aren't as interesting as I thought? I haven't tested it much.
As I'm making swaps it's feeling less and less like it's my own personal cube. I do value quality gameplay over all else, but I don't want to lose out on personal preferences and touches. Ultimately it's my decision, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Designing a cube based on the averages of a bunch of other cubes seems iffy to me, especially when you look at the cubes within the average list individually and they're all over the place.
I have no clue how these suggestions were made considering one of the swaps is Whitemane Lion -> Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but neither of those cards are in the average cube linked.
The vast majority of these swaps are heavily debatable and are environment dependent too; a decent number of cards I value highly are on both sides of the list.
I think every(?) card on the list has been playable over the past few years anyways, so I wouldn't worry about it. You should only really swap cards if there's a card you want to remove or a card you want to include.
Were all the suggested swaps from the average cube tutor automated, or did you pick those out yourself?
I don't have anything automated, so they were all just from doing comparisons of your current list to the average cube and my own cube. I did try to steer clear of what looked like an obvious archetype choice (like the +1/+1 counters support) and in some cases even tried to add something to that archetype.
By all means, take these suggestions as just that. These are just suggestions after all and not what you "should" be doing. It's certainly not my intention to try to make your list more generic or try to imply that the archeypes you're supporting now are somehow bad or wrong.
I have no clue how these suggestions were made considering one of the swaps is Whitemane Lion -> Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but neither of those cards are in the average cube linked.
I suggested Knight there because I've included it in my own C/U list and it has been pretty stellar. I'd recommend it for all peasant lists, regardless of archetype support just for being really good.
You should only really swap cards if there's a card you want to remove or a card you want to include.
I've been working on a Peasant cube for a while now and for the longest time I couldn't get the list under 800 cards. I know larger cubes tend to be pretty bad, especially with archetypes with chase cards like reanimator, so I've recently cut it down to 450 (man was that hard) and I'm having a hard time gauging if it's in a good spot after doing tons of practice drafts. If anyone would like to take a look at the list or even draft it and offer some constructive criticism, that would be great! I primarily draft 2-player cube with my brother using various 2-player methods like burn 2 and burn 4, so we have the potential to see as many cards as an 8-player draft.
Here's the cube: https://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/165292
Thanks for your time.
A full cycle of talismans is kind of excessive even if you do want 2cmc rocks. Also you have 2 UB and no GW talismans in case that wasn't intentional.
Your fixing is pretty aggro adverse. City of Brass, Aether Hub, and Gemstone Mine are all really helpful to make aggro starts more consistent.
Great point about the aggro fixing. I'll invest in some better lands to help with that. I've been thinking about throwing in shock lands (the only lands I have a full set of right now), but it felt weird since they would be so much better than all the other lands.
Thanks for the advice very helpful.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
You might find this interesting. It's an average list I put together near the end of last year from all the active lists I could find here on MTGS.
https://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/156304
You can use the filter options to filter down to get the cube to specific sizes to see what the "average" list at that size runs. Obviously cube is what you make it and what your group prefers, but it could give you some ideas on cuts/adds.
With that said, I took the liberty of comparing your list to the average list based on that data and came up with these possible change suggestions. One thing I didn't include here, but would also suggest is not forcing a cycle of mono colored lands in. Outside of blue and green, mono colored nonbasics at peasant just aren't that great and forcing a full cycle is doing yourself a real disservice. I'd prefer to have those other three slots filled with actual cards that might see play.
Anyway, here's the suggested swaps.
Doomed Traveler -> Dryad Militant
Gideon's Lawkeeper -> Law-Rune Enforcer
Steward of Solidarity -> Soltari Trooper
Whitemane Lion -> Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Emancipation Angel -> Orzhov Advokist
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Banisher Priest
Territorial Hammerskull -> Stonecloaker
Glimmerpoint Stag -> Kong Ming, Sleeping Dragon
Master Splicer -> Kor Sanctifiers
Rhox Veteran -> Calciderm
Oketra's Attendant -> Serra Angel
Gods Willing -> Harm's Way
Otherworldly Journey -> Mana Tithe
Swell of Courage -> Forsake the Worldly
Timely Reinforcements -> Battle Screech
Promise of Bunrei -> Banishing Light
Cloudfin Raptor -> Siren Stormtamer
Hypnotic Sprite // Mesmeric Glare -> Departed Deckhand
Illusory Angel -> Eldrazi Skyspawner
Mirror Image -> Sea Gate Oracle
Archaeomancer -> Mist Raven
Wing Splicer -> Ninja of the Deep Hours
Mnemonic Wall -> Mind Control
Murder of Crows -> Errant Ephemeron
Capsize -> Into the Roil
Exclude -> Dismiss
Ghostly Flicker -> Frantic Search
Mire Triton -> Zulaport Cutthroat
Sultai Emissary -> Dauthi Horror
Nantuko Husk -> Bone Shredder
Pharika's Spawn -> Skinrender
Sling-Gang Lieutenant -> Corpse Augur
Fallen Angel -> Vampire Sovereign
Phyrexian Gargantua -> Rakshasa Gravecaller
Tragic Slip -> Ultimate Price
Go for the Throat -> Murderous Cut
Ashes to Ashes -> Harsh Scrutiny
Moan of the Unhallowed -> Duress
Incremental Blight -> Victimize
Elspeth's Nightmare -> Necromancy
Goblin Bushwhacker -> Goblin Glory Chaser
Burning-Tree Emissary -> War-Name Aspirant
Firebrand Archer -> Stormblood Berserker
Kiln Fiend -> Thermo-Alchemist
Viashino Pyromancer -> Goblin Bombardment
Ghirapur Gearcrafter -> Acolyte of the Inferno
Reckless Bushwhacker -> Fire Imp
Firewing Phoenix -> Goblin Heelcutter
Scrapper Champion -> Skizzik
Thrill of Possibility -> Magma Jet
Brimstone Volley -> Burst Lightning
Fight with Fire -> Arc Trail
Rolling Thunder -> Slice and Dice
Frenzied Fugue -> Goblin Bombardment
Devoted Druid -> Elvish Mystic / Fyndhorn Elves
Dryad Greenseeker -> Untamed Kavu
Merfolk Branchwalker -> Nest Invader
Crocanura -> Civic Wayfinder
Druid's Familiar -> Wickerbough Elder
Pack Guardian -> Iwamori of the Open Fist
Keeper of Fables -> Arborback Stomper
Nemesis of Mortals -> Skysnare Spider
Howling Giant -> Sifter Wurm
Sprout Swarm -> Blossoming Defense
Snakeform -> Mutagenic Growth
Nature's Way -> Rampant Growth
Winding Way -> -> Cultivate
Wilderness Reclamation -> Utopia Sprawl
Momentary Blink -> Reflector Mage
Soul Manipulation - Ribbons of Night
Fireblade Artist -> Azra, Oddsmaker
Raging Swordtooth -> Grumgully, the Generous
Ironroot Warlord -> Behemoth Sledge
Life // Death -> Catacomb Sifter
River Hoopoe -> Trygon Predator
Sharktocrab -> Horizon Chimera
Crackling Drake -> Izzet Charm
Rally the Peasants -> Honored Crop-Captain
Heroic Reinforcements -> Goblin Trenches
Wayfarer's Bauble -> Trusty Machete
Prismatic Lens -> Coldsteel Heart
Pristine Talisman -> Vulshok Morningstar
Thran Dynamo -> Serrated Arrows
Chronomaton -> Pacification Array
Palladium Myr -> Pacification Array
Pierce Strider -> Galvanic Juggernaut
Sandstone Oracle -> Sphinx of the Guildpact
Gateway Plaza -> City of Brass
Myriad Landscape -> Gemstone Mine
Rupture Spire -> Aether Hub
Spawning Bed -> Quicksand
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Territorial Hammerskull - Having some disruption is really nice for white aggro
Hypnotic Sprite // Mesmeric Glare - This card is slightly awkward because of the spell costing more than the creature, but that's fine. It's a 2/1 flier on turn two if you can make it work, and if not then it's a 2 for 1.
Mire Triton - Awesome card, just does it all.
Brimstone Volley - Five damage burn is so insane
Devoted Druid - Being able to ramp to 5 mana on turn 3 is wild
Fireblade Artist - Such a good rakdos card, 2/2 haste for 2 and then additionally gives you nice reach
Heroic Reinforcements - I've always found this card to be the best boros finisher
I think some of these cards are just not in the average peasant list because they came out so recently.
My biggest suggestion in terms of cube design would be cutting 1-2 cards per guild. Particularly if you are playing 2 player primarily, having a lot of multicolor cards you will just find them going around and around and not getting picked up. So replacing some of them with mono-color cards that can be played in way more decks makes the drafting experience much more pleasant. Plus, a lot of multicolor card in peasant I find that I'm just thinking "this is cool if I'm playing the color combo but it's only really marginally better than the mono color alternative". That being said these are the 2 cards from each of your guilds I would suggest cutting if you decide to:
Empyrean Eagle
Momentary Blink
Soul Manipulation
Dinrova Horror
Terminate - Would just swap out for Ultimate Price if you want a 2 mana kill spell
Garna, the Blood Flame
Voltaic Brawler
Raging Swordtooth
Qasali Pridemage
Juniper Order Ranger
Tidehollow Sculler
Angel of Despair (although if you want the reanimate target this can be a good one)
Shardless Agent
Sharktocrab
Enigma Drake
Crackling Drake
Lightning Helix - again, would rather just have incinerate, which is almost as good in an aggressive deck (which RW tends to be), but can be played in every red color combo
Rally the Peasants
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
I used the average cube list, and a lot of the cubes used in making that list, to create the cube you see. It's a great resource and I was so happy to see it's only one set behind. While I don't agree with all the swaps (similar to DJRedLantern) there are definitely lots of swaps I'm on board with. Playing lands just for the sake of having a cycle doesn't make much sense does it.
Definitely going to go through and fine tune things and with the knowledge I've gained from this thread I'm feeling much better about it.
As I'm making swaps it's feeling less and less like it's my own personal cube. I do value quality gameplay over all else, but I don't want to lose out on personal preferences and touches. Ultimately it's my decision, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Designing a cube based on the averages of a bunch of other cubes seems iffy to me, especially when you look at the cubes within the average list individually and they're all over the place.
The vast majority of these swaps are heavily debatable and are environment dependent too; a decent number of cards I value highly are on both sides of the list.
I think every(?) card on the list has been playable over the past few years anyways, so I wouldn't worry about it. You should only really swap cards if there's a card you want to remove or a card you want to include.
I don't have anything automated, so they were all just from doing comparisons of your current list to the average cube and my own cube. I did try to steer clear of what looked like an obvious archetype choice (like the +1/+1 counters support) and in some cases even tried to add something to that archetype.
By all means, take these suggestions as just that. These are just suggestions after all and not what you "should" be doing. It's certainly not my intention to try to make your list more generic or try to imply that the archeypes you're supporting now are somehow bad or wrong.
I suggested Knight there because I've included it in my own C/U list and it has been pretty stellar. I'd recommend it for all peasant lists, regardless of archetype support just for being really good.
100% this.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant