I posed this question on TMD and got my thread locked after 3 hours so I was wondering if anyone else here had an opinion on this. Are blue cards really such a huge part of Vintage that we can't even have a discussion about the power they wield over the format?
Although every color has some use in Vintage, blue is the best one. Blue sees play in the most decks and is played in those decks at the highest quantities. Dual lands with blue in them hold a higher value then all other dual lands. Blue has two of the most powerful affects in Vintage, counters and draw. Counters unable decks running blue to answer virtually any card, while other colors can only target certain card types. Blue draw spells are some of the best in the game enabling a deck to replenish its hand while decks without draw can only draw cards once a turn. Most of these things are obvious, but they are evidence of how blue got to the power level it is at currently.
Is blue too powerful? If so should something be done about blue, or are blue cards the only way to keep Vintage balanced and prevent combo from overrunning the metagame? What is the best way to fix blue and return balance to the color pie?
Realistically, there is nothing you can do, nor does it matter. With moxes, plenty of 5 color lands, and soo much card draw/cycle, the color is almost irrelevantly. The only way I can think of for wizards to change this is ban Time Walk/Ancestral Recall (WHAT!??) or print similar cards. Both of these would make the Vintage and every other format EXPLODE. So, the answers are, No, No, None.
Unfortunately, Wizards wasn't particularly sure on which cards would prove powerful when they first started. Compare the "3 stuff" cycle in alpha -- ancestral recall, lightning bolt, dark ritual, giant growth and healing salve. Even mana drain, which came later, suffers from "hey, the drawbak is that they might take mana burn! Its balanced!"
Yes, blue is the most powerful color, but these imbalances cannot be corrected in vintage today. Banning cards is unacceptable (play legacy instead), and printing powerful cards in other colors would result in other formats (like standard) to be turned on its head. And blue still is the dumping ground of abilities and ideas that don't fit the other colors, which means of all the colors, it might still prove to be the most powerful in the future.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The only way Blue could be "fixed" in Vintage is for Wizards to print a string of anti-Blue cards that are so undeniably powerful that people wouldn't have any choice but to play them.
I don't think any of the iconic Blue spells in Vintage can be banned (or even restricted) without causing some serious balance issues. This is especially true for Mana Drain and Force of Will.
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Last time I checked blue was the great balance to vintage that is why it appears in most decks. So it would seem to be the most powerful. But if it was the most powerful we would see a lot more mono U go all the way.
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Yes, blue is the most powerful color by far. But is it too powerful? That's not possible. Vintage, as a format, operates on the faith that a format can survive without bannings (that aren't dexterity or ante-related). And super hosers are ridiculous and will never happen, if for no reason other than how lamely obvious they would be.
So the answer is that blue is extremely more powerful than the other colors and everyone playing vintage has long accepted that.
I have been magic long enough to remember when the Power 9, though restricted, were a part of the only format and quite tournament legal and I paid less than $60.00 for my four Mana Drains and a Revised Ancestral.
The simple answer to the first part of your question, pertaining to Vintage and to a lesser degree Legacy, is no. If you posed this question several years ago my inclination, regardless that I to enjoy playing would've more than likely have been yes. However, as sets have come out and WotC has traveled the direction it has, in today's Eternal formats I'd say no,
The difference between Eternal of today and the formats of yester-year is in the roll plays out. In days gone by, you could effectively play mono:symu::symu: is seldom the sole color of the deck. This is not to say wasn't versatile, but that it was capable of existing on its own. The transition from self being the complete color to what is today started with Urza block. When the restricted list is comprised of over 20% of cards from a single block, WotC had to take notice. Don't forget Morphling adding to the power level of watery mana. However, its the advent of a single card that I believe started the shift from mono:symu: or 5C:symu: (deck that were decks that splashed for restricted cards of other colors) to decks becoming more and another color with the advent of a single card: Duress.
Decks would splash for the Demonic and Vampiric Tutors adding Yawgmoth's Will once it was released in Saga, but Duress was the first consistent non:symu::symu: counter-magic that everyone had to play in order to survive in the format. You want to play something, Duress first to check for counter-magic from your opponent's hand. If Duress resolves you either get the best non-creature or non-land in their hand. If they were fool enough to counter the duress, at worst you still got a counter out of their hand or at best you got a counter, a and the took one life.
Now fast forward to, of all sets, Odyssey which marks the passing of the beat-stick from Morphling to Psychatog. Again a card that requires dedication to another color. Again, fast forward to Storm and the advent of the various Meandecks. This, in my mind, is where the transition of from simple power to the color of versatility is complete. The Versatility in functions is what makes the power is today. To answers another of your questions, ability to balance Vintage is essentially the need to fight fire with fire, or more accurately counters versus other cards.
I'm not sure if there is a fix to per say, however I do think there is a solution and it lies in other colors. Both & are the antithesis and have a duty to inhibit and cards should be released that better handle this function. In Time Spiral block, there were two missed opportunities for time shifted cards, one of which might have been reasonable in Vintage. The card specifically for Vintage I believe should have been printed was Ecoblast, a Pyroblast. This would have been a start in providing newer card that would work well in Standard and Extended (think Teferi), but were additionally intended to work in the Eternal formats. With redirection moving to :symr:, I figured there might have been an outside chance that there might have been a time shifted Misdirection.
I hope I have provided a perspective into your question, though I can't promise it clarifies all of your questions. The power of in today's Eternal formats lies in its versatility. It would be difficult to remove or even curtail that aspect of by directly altering the color without losing it's identity. I think the answer lies through increasing the capabilities of all the other colors in what they inherently do in addition to expanding & :symg:'s responsibility to specifically handle :symu:'s versatility.
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There are other ways to beat blue. Take a look at classic decks like sligh. Blue is a powerful selection of choice. Black for disrupt,blue for counter/draw, red for burn, green strength and white speed. Mono-colored decks blue is top dog. There is no real soultion.
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Legacy:
NO RUG
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Modern:
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Once, long ago, somebody said: "There are just 3 colors in T1, blue, black and artifact", and this was waaay back then. It has always been like that, just adapt to it.
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Hmm, proper use of words in titles on the TMD is a must. Not sure if it is the reason it was locked, but if you look at your title, the word "to" is used incorrectly. You should have used the word "too." because it is used when describing a degree of value.
I have been magic long enough to remember when the Power 9, though restricted, were a part of the only format and quite tournament legal and I paid less than $60.00 for my four Mana Drains and a Revised Ancestral.
How much are you willing to sell your REVISED Ancestral for?
For the question of the power of Blue in Vintage...
Blue is much like artifacts, but with color restraints. Blue works well with all colors. Blue is the color that allows the most card advantage and control. For these reasons blue is the best color to compliment any other color in most situations.
The weakness of Blue is as follows...
Blue by itself is not as strong as other colors on their own most of the time. Thus you do not see mono blue decks as top contenders in the eternal formats.
Blue is essentially the splash color for every deck that uses it. However, with the new wording on Flash, blue will have its own deck again, and other colors will be the splash.
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In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
Although every color has some use in Vintage, blue is the best one. Blue sees play in the most decks and is played in those decks at the highest quantities. Dual lands with blue in them hold a higher value then all other dual lands. Blue has two of the most powerful affects in Vintage, counters and draw. Counters unable decks running blue to answer virtually any card, while other colors can only target certain card types. Blue draw spells are some of the best in the game enabling a deck to replenish its hand while decks without draw can only draw cards once a turn. Most of these things are obvious, but they are evidence of how blue got to the power level it is at currently.
Is blue too powerful? If so should something be done about blue, or are blue cards the only way to keep Vintage balanced and prevent combo from overrunning the metagame? What is the best way to fix blue and return balance to the color pie?
Yes, blue is the most powerful color, but these imbalances cannot be corrected in vintage today. Banning cards is unacceptable (play legacy instead), and printing powerful cards in other colors would result in other formats (like standard) to be turned on its head. And blue still is the dumping ground of abilities and ideas that don't fit the other colors, which means of all the colors, it might still prove to be the most powerful in the future.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I don't think any of the iconic Blue spells in Vintage can be banned (or even restricted) without causing some serious balance issues. This is especially true for Mana Drain and Force of Will.
So the answer is that blue is extremely more powerful than the other colors and everyone playing vintage has long accepted that.
The simple answer to the first part of your question, pertaining to Vintage and to a lesser degree Legacy, is no. If you posed this question several years ago my inclination, regardless that I to enjoy playing would've more than likely have been yes. However, as sets have come out and WotC has traveled the direction it has, in today's Eternal formats I'd say no,
The difference between Eternal of today and the formats of yester-year is in the roll plays out. In days gone by, you could effectively play mono:symu::symu: is seldom the sole color of the deck. This is not to say wasn't versatile, but that it was capable of existing on its own. The transition from self being the complete color to what is today started with Urza block. When the restricted list is comprised of over 20% of cards from a single block, WotC had to take notice. Don't forget Morphling adding to the power level of watery mana. However, its the advent of a single card that I believe started the shift from mono:symu: or 5C:symu: (deck that were decks that splashed for restricted cards of other colors) to decks becoming more and another color with the advent of a single card: Duress.
Decks would splash for the Demonic and Vampiric Tutors adding Yawgmoth's Will once it was released in Saga, but Duress was the first consistent non:symu::symu: counter-magic that everyone had to play in order to survive in the format. You want to play something, Duress first to check for counter-magic from your opponent's hand. If Duress resolves you either get the best non-creature or non-land in their hand. If they were fool enough to counter the duress, at worst you still got a counter out of their hand or at best you got a counter, a and the took one life.
Now fast forward to, of all sets, Odyssey which marks the passing of the beat-stick from Morphling to Psychatog. Again a card that requires dedication to another color. Again, fast forward to Storm and the advent of the various Meandecks. This, in my mind, is where the transition of from simple power to the color of versatility is complete. The Versatility in functions is what makes the power is today. To answers another of your questions, ability to balance Vintage is essentially the need to fight fire with fire, or more accurately counters versus other cards.
I'm not sure if there is a fix to per say, however I do think there is a solution and it lies in other colors. Both & are the antithesis and have a duty to inhibit and cards should be released that better handle this function. In Time Spiral block, there were two missed opportunities for time shifted cards, one of which might have been reasonable in Vintage. The card specifically for Vintage I believe should have been printed was Ecoblast, a Pyroblast. This would have been a start in providing newer card that would work well in Standard and Extended (think Teferi), but were additionally intended to work in the Eternal formats. With redirection moving to :symr:, I figured there might have been an outside chance that there might have been a time shifted Misdirection.
I hope I have provided a perspective into your question, though I can't promise it clarifies all of your questions. The power of in today's Eternal formats lies in its versatility. It would be difficult to remove or even curtail that aspect of by directly altering the color without losing it's identity. I think the answer lies through increasing the capabilities of all the other colors in what they inherently do in addition to expanding & :symg:'s responsibility to specifically handle :symu:'s versatility.
Former student of Great Pun-Master Badump Chang
Best flavor text: Humiliation (Lunch Money)
www.hellwerx.com
Check out the Hellwerx Souvenir Shoppe.
NO RUG
Team America
U/W Stoneblade
Zoo
No FOW bant
Modern:
In testing
Banner and avatar by the one and only Craven at Epic graphics. Check them out.
Offical High Priest of Reign of Blood
Hmm, proper use of words in titles on the TMD is a must. Not sure if it is the reason it was locked, but if you look at your title, the word "to" is used incorrectly. You should have used the word "too." because it is used when describing a degree of value.
How much are you willing to sell your REVISED Ancestral for?
For the question of the power of Blue in Vintage...
Blue is much like artifacts, but with color restraints. Blue works well with all colors. Blue is the color that allows the most card advantage and control. For these reasons blue is the best color to compliment any other color in most situations.
The weakness of Blue is as follows...
Blue by itself is not as strong as other colors on their own most of the time. Thus you do not see mono blue decks as top contenders in the eternal formats.
Blue is essentially the splash color for every deck that uses it. However, with the new wording on Flash, blue will have its own deck again, and other colors will be the splash.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.