I'm watching eternal weekend vintage and I see people don't even put Blightsteel Colossus in their deck to target with Tinker
What happened or why don't do that anymore?
That's a free win con to go along with Vault + Key
I'm watching eternal weekend vintage and I see people don't even put Blightsteel Colossus in their deck to target with Tinker
What happened or why don't do that anymore?
That's a free win con to go along with Vault + Key
Blightsteel gets bounced by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and stolen by Dack Fayden. It's also more of a brick to draw than other Tinker targets. Blightsteel is powerful, but it can backfire very easily.
I have won so many games after my opponent Tinkered into BSC that I would have flat out lost if they had gone for a more resilient, slower wincon like Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind (plus, those are both much more hardcastable early off Mana Drain, or late with counter backup than BSC is).
While BSC is immune to a lot of the removal that has been printed in Magic's history, it's actually removed by quite a large amount of the played removal in Vintage. It's immune to Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Lightning Bolt, but dies to just about everything else.
Blightsteel gets bounced by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and stolen by Dack Fayden. It's also more of a brick to draw than other Tinker targets. Blightsteel is powerful, but it can backfire very easily.
While this is true, Blightsteel Colossus still has his place. He's the fastest tinker target in a control deck unless you have half of the vault/key combo, so he's still the best against decks that don't play the answers you mention (Steel Sabotage is another bad one).
The most common decks that come to mind are shops and dredge. Some shops lists run Duplicant, but I don't think dredge generally has a solution to a resolved blightsteel if they can't just kill you.
Blightsteel gets bounced by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and stolen by Dack Fayden. It's also more of a brick to draw than other Tinker targets. Blightsteel is powerful, but it can backfire very easily.
While this is true, Blightsteel Colossus still has his place. He's the fastest tinker target in a control deck unless you have half of the vault/key combo, so he's still the best against decks that don't play the answers you mention (Steel Sabotage is another bad one).
The most common decks that come to mind are shops and dredge. Some shops lists run Duplicant, but I don't think dredge generally has a solution to a resolved blightsteel if they can't just kill you.
Dredge can often buy a full turn with chump blocks on the BSC.
There were a lot of people at Eternal Weekend running Sphinx of the Steel Wind over blightsteel as it could not be dacked and does not have to tap to swing in. Also, the life gain isn't so bad either.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
Blightsteel is just fragile. He is the fastest but also the easiest to disrupt. He still has his place, but if you're worried about his fragility (like many are) you could use the following.
Inkwell Leviathan : Great against blue decks but provides a slower clock and can be raced. Has shroud so hard to interact with.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind : Great against Delver and is immune to Dack as well.
Myr Battlesphere : Can be good, especially with Welder shenanigans.
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"An immense river of oblivion is sweeping us away into a nameless abyss." —Ernest Renan, Souvenirs d'Enfance et de Jeunesse
Blightsteel also has a few more options for getting back into your library if you draw it. You can discard him to Thirst for Knowledge or Dack Fayden's +1 for example.
Blightsteel also has a few more options for getting back into your library if you draw it. You can discard him to Thirst for Knowledge or Dack Fayden's +1 for example.
While this is true, I find that the ability to hardcast Inkwell Leviathan with counter backup (off a Mana Drain, or off Mana Vault + Voltaic Key, or a lategame Lotus, or Tolarian Academy, or if Time Vault is shut down, off big Tezz) comes up more frequently than the ability to shuffle BSC into the library for profit then Tinker it out later.
I've never been in a position to cast BSC with multiple counter backup, but more than once I have cast Inkwell with 3UU up for FoW, plus a second FoW and a blue card in hand.
Too fragile right now. BSC is directly comparable to DSC in that regard. Back in 08 when I started playing vintage I ran inkwell over DSC at that point because the resiliency of inkwell was far better than the faster clock of DSC. The same situation applies right now. Dack fayden stealing BSC is a very bad feeling. Same with steel sabotage, JTMS, or any other answer to BSC. Inkwell you just freeroll right now and sphinx gets by dack and is obscene against UR delver. Ability to hardcast the cheaper tinker targets is sometimes huge. Hardcasting BSC is hard at 12 mana.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm pretty new to vintage, but it doesn't seem so cut and dry to me. There are answers to every Tinker target. Counterspells and Hurkyl's Recall get all of them, jace and dack get a few fewer, etc. The fast ones are vulnerable to more answers, but give less time to find them. The more resilient ones give the opponent more time to find one of their answers or just win before you kill them.
I think it comes down to your personal preference and what you think your deck needs. If there was a clear answer everyone would be running it and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The problem with Inkwell is that unless you cast it really early in the game, Delver decks and even Merfolk decks can easily race it. You do pay that price for it's resiliency.
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"An immense river of oblivion is sweeping us away into a nameless abyss." —Ernest Renan, Souvenirs d'Enfance et de Jeunesse
The problem with Inkwell is that unless you cast it really early in the game, Delver decks and even Merfolk decks can easily race it. You do pay that price for it's resiliency.
This is very true. Sphinx of the Steel Wind, OTOH, isn't possible to race for Delver.
I think it comes down to your personal preference and what you think your deck needs. If there was a clear answer everyone would be running it and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
With all respect, I disagree that it is a matter of preference. You are right that each of the options has ups and downs. But that fact doesn't mean the best choice is a matter of opinion. It does mean that finding the strategic choice will be difficult. As other people have brought up, some Tinker targets will be better against certain decks.
To contribute, I think we should also consider our deck's weaknesses. If we have a huge problem with delver then Sphinx of the Steel is likely the best choice as they probably can only get us with Hurkyll's Recall type effects since Timewalk is unlikely to be able to overpower the lifelink ability. Look at the outs the deck you are trying to improve your matchup against. See what outs they are likely to have and plan according to those outs.
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I've got a "powered" peasant cube. You can draft it here.
Brief description:
---Primary------Secondary W Midrange----Control U Control------Tempo B Aggro--------Necromancy R Aggro--------Reach G Midrange-----Ramp
I think it comes down to your personal preference and what you think your deck needs. If there was a clear answer everyone would be running it and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
With all respect, I disagree that it is a matter of preference. You are right that each of the options has ups and downs. But that fact doesn't mean the best choice is a matter of opinion. It does mean that finding the strategic choice will be difficult. As other people have brought up, some Tinker targets will be better against certain decks.
To contribute, I think we should also consider our deck's weaknesses. If we have a huge problem with delver then Sphinx of the Steel is likely the best choice as they probably can only get us with Hurkyll's Recall type effects since Timewalk is unlikely to be able to overpower the lifelink ability. Look at the outs the deck you are trying to improve your matchup against. See what outs they are likely to have and plan according to those outs.
Steel Sabotage and Fire//Ice can let you beat the Sphinx.
Blightsteel may be making a comeback into the format as the robot of choice. Now that Gifts is unrestricted, I cna see Gifts decks setting up their piles to go lethal with Blightsteel. Gifts decks of old used to kill with Darksteel Colossus, and they would gifts for a Time wakl pile to take two turns to swing and kill. This kill method is now acheived in one turn, so the extra turn (in case of a chump block, for example) would still mean lethal. If Cage and RIP arent enough to dissuade people from being successful with Gifts, we can see a lot of infect kills beginning with tapping for 3U...
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Just to be clear on Blightsteel Colossus and Darksteel Colossus, if you Gifts for them, and they end up in your graveyard, you are not going to get them in your graveyard.
I assume you mean that you gift for eventually Tinker into them.
I assume the reference is to Gifts into Tinker, Recoup, Time Walk, Force of Will or something similar. If you have the mana that is a one-shot robot win through one counter, unless the opponent has 2 toughness in blockers, and even then it leaves you in a commanding position.
^^ This. EOT Gifts untapping with 7 mana is basically an auto-win. Even if you don't manage to win, you gain insane CA since you're actually spending one card from your hand (plus maybe sac'ing an artifact or exiling a second card from your hand), but it takes several cards to fight through. Plus you will likely get the extra turn, since that seems the wrong place to disrupt.
With the new banned/restricted list being implemented, you can expect the format to slow down enough so that drain decks can make their way back into the format. Quad thirst bring back and dig's restriction takes some of the *umph* out of the gush engine, making it meerely "really good" instead of "insane". That, plus the restriction of Chalice of the void opens up more space for big mana blue decks, which is where Mana Drain really shines.
If this indeed does happen, then Gifts into recoup- tinker or snapcaster-tinker package can indeed make a comeback. I think the big question then becomes whether Dack is still the dominant planeswalker in this new vintage meta.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Dack is still a powerhouse as there will still be workshop decks and taking moxen from big blue decks is still great. The looting is still more powerful than thirst for knowledge in terms of raw digging power since you can do it repeatedly sure it doesn't generate +1 card advantage with just the looting but it's a brainstorm that discards instead of putting back essentially/extremely powerful.
Mana drain might make a comeback it might not. If there isn't a lot of big blue decks it won't.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
What happened or why don't do that anymore?
That's a free win con to go along with Vault + Key
Blightsteel gets bounced by Jace, the Mind Sculptor and stolen by Dack Fayden. It's also more of a brick to draw than other Tinker targets. Blightsteel is powerful, but it can backfire very easily.
While BSC is immune to a lot of the removal that has been printed in Magic's history, it's actually removed by quite a large amount of the played removal in Vintage. It's immune to Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Lightning Bolt, but dies to just about everything else.
While this is true, Blightsteel Colossus still has his place. He's the fastest tinker target in a control deck unless you have half of the vault/key combo, so he's still the best against decks that don't play the answers you mention (Steel Sabotage is another bad one).
The most common decks that come to mind are shops and dredge. Some shops lists run Duplicant, but I don't think dredge generally has a solution to a resolved blightsteel if they can't just kill you.
Dredge can often buy a full turn with chump blocks on the BSC.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
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Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
Inkwell Leviathan : Great against blue decks but provides a slower clock and can be raced. Has shroud so hard to interact with.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind : Great against Delver and is immune to Dack as well.
Myr Battlesphere : Can be good, especially with Welder shenanigans.
While this is true, I find that the ability to hardcast Inkwell Leviathan with counter backup (off a Mana Drain, or off Mana Vault + Voltaic Key, or a lategame Lotus, or Tolarian Academy, or if Time Vault is shut down, off big Tezz) comes up more frequently than the ability to shuffle BSC into the library for profit then Tinker it out later.
I've never been in a position to cast BSC with multiple counter backup, but more than once I have cast Inkwell with 3UU up for FoW, plus a second FoW and a blue card in hand.
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I think it comes down to your personal preference and what you think your deck needs. If there was a clear answer everyone would be running it and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
This is very true. Sphinx of the Steel Wind, OTOH, isn't possible to race for Delver.
With all respect, I disagree that it is a matter of preference. You are right that each of the options has ups and downs. But that fact doesn't mean the best choice is a matter of opinion. It does mean that finding the strategic choice will be difficult. As other people have brought up, some Tinker targets will be better against certain decks.
To contribute, I think we should also consider our deck's weaknesses. If we have a huge problem with delver then Sphinx of the Steel is likely the best choice as they probably can only get us with Hurkyll's Recall type effects since Timewalk is unlikely to be able to overpower the lifelink ability. Look at the outs the deck you are trying to improve your matchup against. See what outs they are likely to have and plan according to those outs.
Brief description:
W Midrange----Control
U Control------Tempo
B Aggro--------Necromancy
R Aggro--------Reach
G Midrange-----Ramp
Steel Sabotage and Fire//Ice can let you beat the Sphinx.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I assume you mean that you gift for eventually Tinker into them.
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If this indeed does happen, then Gifts into recoup- tinker or snapcaster-tinker package can indeed make a comeback. I think the big question then becomes whether Dack is still the dominant planeswalker in this new vintage meta.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Mana drain might make a comeback it might not. If there isn't a lot of big blue decks it won't.
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Far too often it's too slow - it swings for non-lethal if the opponent has any of Young Pyromancer, Insectile Aberration or Monastery Mentor out.