My friend was telling me that this was a viable deck to play, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about this, or if she was just telling me bull, since she didn't have a list to give me or anything like that.
Basically, I like playing WBG in every format. I have a lot of staples as a result, though I don't know how many are useful in vintage. Here's a list od what I have that I believe can be useful.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 of each dual
4 of each WBG fetchland
4 Abrupt Decay
3 stony silence
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened tutor (probably not good enough)
I have none of the power 9, do not have the budget for any, and believe all the tournaments at Gencon are sanctioned, so I can't proxy any. I am hoping to make a deck that is at least able to possibky hold its own without blue (no forces or snapcasters either) and am wondering if that's even possible, considering my friend had no details about this theoretically viable powerless WBG deck.
Here is a list from MTGtop8 that took 5th-8th at the UK Vintage Championships in May. Might be a good starting point. If you don't have the Goyfs, I'd suggest upping the Scooze count and maybe throwing in a Green Sun's Zenith or two to toolbox Teeg, Pridemage, KotR, etc.
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Thank you! I actually have quite a lot of that, including the goyfs. Most of what I don't have is fairly cheap, and can be traded for, too. Other than, naturally, the lands.
Powerless lists can be very competitive, just beware running into other powerless lists that are attacking from a different angle, for example Goblins with no artifacts making Stony Silence or Null Rod dead draws, this highlights the problem with playing Hate for Power, if they don't have it - then you are staring at dead cards in your hand.
As a specific comment on this deck, I might include one maindecked Hallowed Moonlight, (this is new tech so it might surprise people- but don't blame me if it's not good - just something crazy to try) it's useful vs Oath, Dredge, Mentor/Pyromancer Tokens and Tinker, if it's dead then you can cycle it for a card. My Suggestion would be to cut one main deck Swords to Plowshares as sometimes you don't face creatures.
I'd def. use more GSZ because it's your only way to get fast to your solutions.
Other than that, i'd use 4 Surgical Extraction. It's too damn strong to not use it. I cant stress this enough, you not only can get 4 for 1, but also see his hand AND see his entire deck and strategy.
Addtiionally, think about yout Meta. Cards like Stony Silence very good, but could be - as Beralt said - dead. Vintage isnt a fixed format. If you see a lot of Shop decks, build your deck accordingly. If you see a lot of Combo, Vryn Wingmare and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben are superb cards.
Stony Silence should be pretty darn powerful against anything besides other unpowered lists. Even if it's just shutting off 5x Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Black Lotus, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, that's still minimum 6 cards that it kills, and most of those cards are the equivalent of lands for the decks that use them. Combine with a couple Thalias and Wastelands and you can lock out a lot of decks from doing much of anything.
Surgical Extraction seems okay, but I don't think I'd mainboard it unless you seriously bump up the number of cheap discard spells you pack. It's also Mental Misstep fodder - I'd almost rather see Extirpate.
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Monastery generally runs the full set of Moxen since they trigger Mentor/Prowess, but yeah I guess you're somewhat correct. Still, a list packing decays and Goyfs has a decent matchup against UR Delver to begin with, so I think you're fine playing to your weaker matchups.
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I dont know if thats the place but why? If you dont play power, you should look for card advantage.
Surgical Extraction and Extirpate are both at least 2 for 1, most of the they are 4 for 1. You can strip so many insane things out of a hand and library. And - IMO - you need such advantageous trades, especially in a deck like this.
Uhm, I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I'm not certain you recognize what a 2-for-1 or a 4-for-1 are.
These tally card advantage. A Surgical Extraction is, at best, a 3-for-1, and that's when your opponent is holding in their hand all three other copies of the card you target. Most commonly, a Surgical Extraction is a 0-for-1 in your opponent's favor, as you may exile a card from their graveyard and additional copies from Library, but you're not actually affecting their hand or board at all, and you're going down one card in hand to do it. Unless you can pinpoint remove a card that their entire deck depends on, you're not accomplishing much. And in order to do that without countermagic, you effectively have to use discard to rip it before they can cast it, which is often a tall order.
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Again it's a fine card, usable in any deck, but against a reasonably large portion of decks it's relatively dead. For example against Delver, you extract their Delvers and they kill you with Young Pyromancer, Against Shops you chose Workshop and they lock you out with Lodestones cast off Metalworker - etc. I find it to be especially unhelpful against unpowered lists as they usually have a variety of ways to attack you. Finally remember that by reducing library size, you can be helping players, increasing their chances to draw into other cards. This last point is miniscule but sometimes these things can turn the game.
Basically, I like playing WBG in every format. I have a lot of staples as a result, though I don't know how many are useful in vintage. Here's a list od what I have that I believe can be useful.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 of each dual
4 of each WBG fetchland
4 Abrupt Decay
3 stony silence
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened tutor (probably not good enough)
I have none of the power 9, do not have the budget for any, and believe all the tournaments at Gencon are sanctioned, so I can't proxy any. I am hoping to make a deck that is at least able to possibky hold its own without blue (no forces or snapcasters either) and am wondering if that's even possible, considering my friend had no details about this theoretically viable powerless WBG deck.
Does that help a bit more?
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4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Stony Silence
1 Lotus Petal
1 Null Rod
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Containment Priest
3 Choke
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
Powerless lists can be very competitive, just beware running into other powerless lists that are attacking from a different angle, for example Goblins with no artifacts making Stony Silence or Null Rod dead draws, this highlights the problem with playing Hate for Power, if they don't have it - then you are staring at dead cards in your hand.
As a specific comment on this deck, I might include one maindecked Hallowed Moonlight, (this is new tech so it might surprise people- but don't blame me if it's not good - just something crazy to try) it's useful vs Oath, Dredge, Mentor/Pyromancer Tokens and Tinker, if it's dead then you can cycle it for a card. My Suggestion would be to cut one main deck Swords to Plowshares as sometimes you don't face creatures.
Good luck and have fun at Gencon.
Stony Silence should be pretty darn powerful against anything besides other unpowered lists. Even if it's just shutting off 5x Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Black Lotus, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, that's still minimum 6 cards that it kills, and most of those cards are the equivalent of lands for the decks that use them. Combine with a couple Thalias and Wastelands and you can lock out a lot of decks from doing much of anything.
Surgical Extraction seems okay, but I don't think I'd mainboard it unless you seriously bump up the number of cheap discard spells you pack. It's also Mental Misstep fodder - I'd almost rather see Extirpate.
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Uhm, I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I'm not certain you recognize what a 2-for-1 or a 4-for-1 are.
These tally card advantage. A Surgical Extraction is, at best, a 3-for-1, and that's when your opponent is holding in their hand all three other copies of the card you target. Most commonly, a Surgical Extraction is a 0-for-1 in your opponent's favor, as you may exile a card from their graveyard and additional copies from Library, but you're not actually affecting their hand or board at all, and you're going down one card in hand to do it. Unless you can pinpoint remove a card that their entire deck depends on, you're not accomplishing much. And in order to do that without countermagic, you effectively have to use discard to rip it before they can cast it, which is often a tall order.
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http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47927.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47936.0
Again it's a fine card, usable in any deck, but against a reasonably large portion of decks it's relatively dead. For example against Delver, you extract their Delvers and they kill you with Young Pyromancer, Against Shops you chose Workshop and they lock you out with Lodestones cast off Metalworker - etc. I find it to be especially unhelpful against unpowered lists as they usually have a variety of ways to attack you. Finally remember that by reducing library size, you can be helping players, increasing their chances to draw into other cards. This last point is miniscule but sometimes these things can turn the game.
Graveyard hate is a nice thing to have. Extraction effects, not so much.
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