isochron scepter is good and repeatable if you're going for that sort of burn build. However, most burn builds aren't looking for repeatable damage (save maybe cursed scroll/black vise) and instead are looking at reliable and efficient burn to kill their opponents with in a hurry. with that said, scepter is a bad idea in a combo burn, but may not be terrible in a control burn. it does leave you open to lots of hate that happen to artifacts, but in a burn list, most don't have that issue...which is a very good advantage in a deck that's otherwise sort of hard to hate out.
-welt
I'd say it _is_ working, and that if a burn deck has to resort to draw spells, it _isn't_ working.
The opening hand as well as the next four or five cards should be enough to shave 20 life. If it isn't, then putting draw spells won't alleviate the problem, because every draw spell in there is a turn lost. This means that the draw spell must be on par with at least 2 burn spells, in order to justify the loss of a turn and loss of a card. Since red has no draw spells of that caliber, the slot is better of served with a burn spell.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I only included Magma Jet because it both allows you to manipulate your next 2 draws, and does 2 points of damage. And is of course the only decent card advantage spell that burn really should be running.
The other 3 are all optional card advantage, that if run, can make a difference in a burn deck, but really are too situational. Browbeat can only be played if the Opponent is at 12 or less life if you want a good chance of the draw, or 8 or less life if you want a garunteed draw. The two wheel's really shouldn't be played until you have run out of gas (well the second wheel can be played first turn as it takes 4 turns to unsuspend) as any time prior to that and you will lose a good deal of your burn spells.
Other than these 4 cards, burn has next to no draw or card advantage, and the only one of them that I even really consider when building a deck is Magma Jet, followed closely by Wheel of Fortune, and Browbeat after that.
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does any one try Furnace of rath? with the mana acl. its easy to drop on say turn 3 and double all the 3 damage in to 6 for quick kill?
If you're up to producing 4 mana and your opponent's life total is still high enough that Furnace will make a difference, then your deck is fundamentally flawed. That one turn you're casting Furnace is a turn you're not doing more damage.
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I've been trying to up date my burn date for vintage, but I'd like it to be a quick change to Legacy as well and lastly I find myself in a lot of multi player games so it needs to work there as well.
I dont see alot of artfiacts in my circle so I havent put any of the hate in there.
Mana:
4 great furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
The mana really needs work, volcanic island will really be moutains as to I dont have 4 of them yet, same goes for black lotus and mox ruby. I do have a few chome moxen but they are in other decks.
For the multiplayer games flame rift needs to be in here just not sure what to cut, also would like to have brainstorm, Molten Influence and wheel of fate to.
I saw above that pyrostatic pillar was suggested but I fear that would hurt too much seeing as how I'm hopeing to cast 2-4 cheap spells a turn. I havent looked at how much of the deck changes for legacy but maybe the decks will be too defferent.
pyrostatic pillar is to make sure other decks don't kill you. storm decks have to deal with it or die. burn isn't the best archetype for multiplayer. you'd need another entirely different build for that.
The MVP of this deck is certainly Price of Progress. This deck has a hard time G1, but G2 and G3 is pretty solid. A second place MVP is definitely Ensnaring Bridge and REB.
I don't think I'd ever heard of Price of Progress before. That card would be a beating in a vintage tournament. The deck seems pretty solid, thanks for sharing.
Mono-red Burn has to consistantly do damage. Otherwise it will not survive. Splashing colors makes this deck more versatile, but slows the deck down considerably. If you splashed black, Confidant, Edicts and Tutors are good choices. However, green is really the most useful splash color I believe. You have artifact hate, mana ramping, and Tarmogoyf.
Caselogic, why no Wheel of Fortune in your friend's list? I understand you might be giving them FoWs and draw and the like, but your hand is going to empty very quickly with this deck and you should pretty much always gain more from it than your opponent, right?
Would you say that list is playable in a powered meta without running Null Rods and/or Chalices?
Mono-red Burn has to consistantly do damage. Otherwise it will not survive. Splashing colors makes this deck more versatile, but slows the deck down considerably. If you splashed black, Confidant, Edicts and Tutors are good choices. However, green is really the most useful splash color I believe. You have artifact hate, mana ramping, and Tarmogoyf.
I'm pretty sure if u throw in 4x bad land 4x mire, you will have little to no trouble with mana consistency. Without draw you run out of gas on turn 5, y not just play bob, he gives u two cards a turn and beats for 2, that seems good to me, but then again burn sucks anyway so there's really no point if u cant win by turn 5.
Mono red burn is best off that...as mono red. You gain nothing by splashing a color, especially when you could use open slots for stuff like howling mine (not terrible in a burn list) and black vise (howling mine and black vise are quite useful slots to me, though I admit to playing weird lists). Green gives you goyf, sure, but it's not really needed. you can get just about as much mileage out of mogg fanatic and keldon marauders. the only thing useful out of a green splash is krosan grip, for a pain in the butt artifact/enchantment, and red can handle artifacts just fine.
I could never see taking Burn to a Vintage tourney without at least 2-3 Smash to Smithereens and 4x Null Rod maindecked.
Honestly, those are the cards I'd start the list off with. You gain SO MUCH off of a Null Rod drop.
Without it, Tezzeret Control takes damage for a few turns and then you never get one again.
Thanks Darth Monkey
-welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
if you don't have burn in hand your deck isn't working.
The opening hand as well as the next four or five cards should be enough to shave 20 life. If it isn't, then putting draw spells won't alleviate the problem, because every draw spell in there is a turn lost. This means that the draw spell must be on par with at least 2 burn spells, in order to justify the loss of a turn and loss of a card. Since red has no draw spells of that caliber, the slot is better of served with a burn spell.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Wheel of Fortune
Wheel of Fate
Browbeat
Magma Jet
I only included Magma Jet because it both allows you to manipulate your next 2 draws, and does 2 points of damage. And is of course the only decent card advantage spell that burn really should be running.
The other 3 are all optional card advantage, that if run, can make a difference in a burn deck, but really are too situational. Browbeat can only be played if the Opponent is at 12 or less life if you want a good chance of the draw, or 8 or less life if you want a garunteed draw. The two wheel's really shouldn't be played until you have run out of gas (well the second wheel can be played first turn as it takes 4 turns to unsuspend) as any time prior to that and you will lose a good deal of your burn spells.
Other than these 4 cards, burn has next to no draw or card advantage, and the only one of them that I even really consider when building a deck is Magma Jet, followed closely by Wheel of Fortune, and Browbeat after that.
Agree w/Dalkon.. I think both Wheels are maybe just a little more risky in this format w/things like storm combo, etc.
edit: whatever, here's how i'd do this. Still probably way too slow for T1.
edit: fixed
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Magma Jet
4 Browbeat
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
8 Mountain
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Lotus Petal is restricted.
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If you're up to producing 4 mana and your opponent's life total is still high enough that Furnace will make a difference, then your deck is fundamentally flawed. That one turn you're casting Furnace is a turn you're not doing more damage.
but then again...vintage doesn't play many critters you can burn so thats kind of a dumb idea...unless you face alot of aggro?
Thanks Darth Monkey
Good luck reliably casting Fireblast with 8 Mountains. I'd dump the Barbarian Rings for four more mountains.
I dont see alot of artfiacts in my circle so I havent put any of the hate in there.
Enchantments:
4 sulfuric vortex
Instants:
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Magma Jet
4 incinerate
4 Electrolyze
4 Psionic Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 fireblast
Sorcery:
2 Demonfire
4 Browbeat
4 Chain Lighting
4 lava spike
Mana:
4 great furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
The mana really needs work, volcanic island will really be moutains as to I dont have 4 of them yet, same goes for black lotus and mox ruby. I do have a few chome moxen but they are in other decks.
For the multiplayer games flame rift needs to be in here just not sure what to cut, also would like to have brainstorm, Molten Influence and wheel of fate to.
I saw above that pyrostatic pillar was suggested but I fear that would hurt too much seeing as how I'm hopeing to cast 2-4 cheap spells a turn. I havent looked at how much of the deck changes for legacy but maybe the decks will be too defferent.
--welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
1 Lotus Petal
4 Price of Progress
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Shattering Spree
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Spark Elemental
4 Rite of Flame
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Rift Bolt
3 Seal of Fire
11 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Tormod's Crypt" target="blank">Tormod's Crypt
The MVP of this deck is certainly Price of Progress. This deck has a hard time G1, but G2 and G3 is pretty solid. A second place MVP is definitely Ensnaring Bridge and REB.
In Mono-Red Burn? Say what???
Would you say that list is playable in a powered meta without running Null Rods and/or Chalices?
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
I'm pretty sure if u throw in 4x bad land 4x mire, you will have little to no trouble with mana consistency. Without draw you run out of gas on turn 5, y not just play bob, he gives u two cards a turn and beats for 2, that seems good to me, but then again burn sucks anyway so there's really no point if u cant win by turn 5.
Bob keeps the burn spells coming, and thats important because you run out of steam fast.
Tarmo keeps the damage coming, which is important because you run out of steam fast.
Thanks Darth Monkey
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Honestly, those are the cards I'd start the list off with. You gain SO MUCH off of a Null Rod drop.
Without it, Tezzeret Control takes damage for a few turns and then you never get one again.