Just wanted to see if anyone was interested in making a deck "from the scratch". Kind of like a rogue built to take on a given meta-game. This will be mostly just for the fun of it and to get our minds working.
So first, we need to determine what kind of field(meta) this deck will be played in. Naturally, we want to beat the most competitive decks available at the moment (or, the most popular). Since this deck will just be a theoretical deck for now, budget concern is not present. (Budget concern shouldn't be present in anycase, anyway)
So, to sum some of the successful decks recently: (some with more success than others)
-Painter's.dec
-Control Slaver
-5c Stax
-Drain Tendrils
-Oath
-UW Fish
-Ichorid
Generally, the Vintage meta-game right now is quite diverse, so, it's hard to find a deck that beats everything obviously. Just play with me on this, to make things more democratic I'd like you (who are interested) to list top 4 decks to beat, then another top 4 decks to keep in mind.
Meaning, over the weekend, we will have determined the majorities opinions on our "fictional" meta-game of sort. And, from there, we can start discussing what type of deck we want to answer this field with. E.G Control/Combo/Aggro/Mixed etc. And examples of cards/combinations/strategies which are good against the given decks.
NOTE: I'm not saying I'm the one who should "lead" this deck development by all means, you guys are probably better in creating decks than I am, so if anyone disagrees or have something else to add. Please:)
I hope people will be interested (just for the fun of it at least). For me, if this works out, it will be quite educative. In ways about finding other deck's strength and weaknesses and creative/strategical deck-building. Wether or not the deck will be a success or not, still, we gather some information and go through a learning proccess.
I like this idea. I am also not the best deck builder or player in the world and I think some collaborative thinking and discussion would be helpful to a lot of people.
The top 4 decks to beat. (my opinion)
1 CS
2 Long/drain tendrils
3 painter
4 fish
Ichorid is always a problem, but good sideboarding from any deck can beat it without any really problems.
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Quote from TJ-Whoopy »
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
1 Control Slaver
2 Painter
3 Long/Drain tendrils
4 Fish
In a format which we can all agree is so dominated by combo-ish decks I'd tend to think the best type of deck to run would be Aggro with as much disruption as possible. Land kill, Null Rods, Discard, StP all seem good in this format.
Aggro may not be a bad place to start, at least from my experience, CS and Fish tend find aggro quite troublesome. The Control-Combo decks have slightly better shot against Aggro due to their ability to just win.
So the challenge may be to find the right combination of disruption to keep the combo decks in check.
all we need is better creatures than fish, a strong disruption (hand/land) package against slaver and tendrils, and spot removal/null rod against painter.
so here is the shell of the deck
null rod
goyf
bob
thoughtseize
duress
wasteland, stripmine
and maybe something like rootmaze.
These cards together address all the above decks.
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Quote from TJ-Whoopy »
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
We need some sweet disruption against large-critters (DC, Akroma and friends) as well as perhaps some MD tech against Ichorid so that we do not auto scoop game one.
First that comes to mind to combat large bodies is Maze of Ith. Or splash a 3rd color of White to get access to Swords to Plow or something. Or maybe Pernicious Deed could work?
I'll try working on a suggestion-list when I get home (from work)
D3@D
Absolutely splash white as it gives you not only StP but also Gaddock Teeg.
Gaddock is amazing in this environment. Shuts off Forces, Tendrils, pretty much anything that hurts you.
Root maze is unplayable in this because of the amount of fetchs we'll have to run.
Also, Extripate is absolutely nuts.
25 mana for a deck that only ever needs 2 seems like way too much. Also 4 extripate seems excessive. 2 extripate and 2 hide//seek would be good. what about something like this
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
The direction you guys are taking this reminds me a lot of Baghdad Bob, as made famous by Vroman about a year ago. His version is 5c but I'm sure you could make some changes to keep it GWB. Here's a list for reference, it's the version I would run if I had a tourney tomorrow:
Squee + Bazaar is a ridiculous draw engine. Squee + Zombie Infestation is a pain. Add to that Confidant and a few Flashback/Dredge 1-ofs and you have an extremely resilient deck. You will most likely see 2/3 of your whole deck in any given game. It plays very fish-like in edging out the opponent, working on CA and dealing those 2-4 dmg a turn when you can. Hide // Seek is the MVP here, it almost always comes in Game 2-3. There's no Leyline but you could make room for it - I'm just not sure how it would interact with DConf. Maybe Tormod's Crypt would be a better choice.
Also, Jotun Grunt is a delicious budget replacement for Goyf if you dont have the $100+ to shell for a playset.
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"Dying with good cards in your hand is the surest sign that you did something wrong, somewhere." -Caleb Durward
@Huey, It's not really 25 mana because 5 of it is landkill. You never use Strip Mine/Wasteland for anything except killing lands and trying to create a soft lock with LftL.
Lotus Petal makes no sense here as we're not interested in creating one really big turn.
You're undervaluing Extirpate. It is absolutely amazing. Since you play 7 discard spells, you can have them discard something and then extirpate it out.
You can also Strip Mine an Underground Sea and then extirpate it to deprive them of black mana. It's an absolute house.
Tutors seem too slow in this deck, and both Glowrider and Mindcensor are out of place in a deck with so many Noncreature spells and Fetchs.
@DE@D I think Doran isn't really necessary main as he doesn't have an awesome effect and you should be able to take your time with damage once you've killed your opponents land/hand.
Leyline should definately be in there in sideboard.
Jitte I think might be too slow... there's other stuff you want to do turns 2-3, and as before the faster kill shouldnt make too much of a difference.
I don't think vindicate fits because the only permanents that are played are Artifacts/Land, and we can already kill/maim those
Mindsensor only effects your opponents, not you. Lotus petal pumps goyf.
Your other points are valid, extripate does seem much better when its hitting anything and everything in sight, and the land probably should be upped a little.
Tutors are your 2nd and 3rd stripmines, and they can get you LftL when you dont have it. too good not to play.
One problem I do see with this kind of deck is that it dies to chalice on 1 or 2 (worse on 2) and there is really no way to deal with it.
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Quote from TJ-Whoopy »
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
I suppose you're right about the tutors, they're in.
Lotus Petal isn't worth including just because it pumps Goyf. I'd almost always rather have a land in hand so I can play stuff on more than one turn. And again, having a large Goyf isnt a priority here.
I still don't know about the Mindcensor, I dont think theres realy anything to cut for it.
Chalice shouldn't be too much of a problem. The only way it gets down for 2 against you is if you're playing $TAX AND they're playing first AND they have Mishra's Workshop, AND a Mox, AND Chalice in their opening grip AND if they decide for some strange reason to play the Chalice for 2. $TAX will always play it for 0 if they're going first.
After that, you have a ton of stuff to disable it. You can make them discard it with Duress or Thoughtseize and you have Gaddock Teeg to shut it off.
Being a stax player myself, I very often will put chalice on 2 against a fish deck. In game 2 and 3 especially. Having an answer main deck should be a priority.
Your above list does look really good though. Doran should not be there though. its pretty awful against most of the field, and doesnt really do anything that goyf cant do. Deed should be a 2 of in the board for ichorid and goblins. Not sure what else should be here though. Maybe that new artifact creature 1W that says you can only play one spell a turn??
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Quote from TJ-Whoopy »
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
Huey, yes once STAX catches on to what we're playing, they might Chalice on 2 games 2 and 3, but that still requires them to have those 3 cards in hand T1.
Deed is good against Goblins but at least where I am, nobody really plays it :S
With 4x Leyline, 4x Jotun Grunt, 4x Gaddock (Can't Flashback Dread Return), and 5x Landkill I think we've got quite a bit against Ichorid.
Maybe that artifact dude against combo decks would be good.
What about hymn instead of thoughtseize? And 4x Extirpate still seem to be a tad too much IMO as well as that Mindcensor seem to be the spot that still needs to be improved.
Other than that, I think the deck starts to look like something we could try.
Mate, I think you really should try the list I posted. Once you play a few games with Gaddock Teeg and Extirpate you're definately going to want to keep them in.
I need to transfer my old hard drive to my new computer and don't have access to MWS yet, but once I do I'll start testing and post my results.
There is a guy that plays a BW deck that is similar to this and has done very well with it so far. making top 8 at the last 3 type one tournys we have had, and this list has alot of similarities. I think we are on the right track with this list but need to solidify the sideboard for any additional matchups we may face.
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Quote from TJ-Whoopy »
From TMD
Round One: Bill Copes playing Stax
Bill seems like a nice guy till I see that he's playing Stax and realize (by way of a concrete Magic formula I learned from my 4th grade math teacher) he has no soul.
I'm looking forward to the results, but I'm still not convinced to be honest about Teeg. As I'm thinking at the moment, I would rather have a large threat stressing my opponents life-total, while I'm taking away his hand resources and lands. Than just having a kind of "back-up" disruption guy in-case I cannot discard their hand good enough or disrupt their mana-base "good enough".
Playing 6-8 discard-effects + 4-5 strip-effects that can be recurred by LftL + Null Rod denieing the opponent from their artifact mana + some extirpate, and incase they sneak out some creatures, STP should be suffecient to disrupt the enemy. On the otherside. We can't just bet all our money on Tarmogoyf alone to do all the dirty work.
If you don't want Doran, then perhaps something like Phyrexian Negator, but IMO he is comes with more risk and is better suitable to a suicide approach. Didn't some one here say that we need better creatures than fish? then why do we only use 2/2's and 2/1's?
Tendrils and other 4x spells can be prevented by discarding their hand as well as playing a 2/2 creature which can be killed before they combo out.
This is just the way I'm thinking. Enlighten me of the opposite if my logic is wrong.
In anycase, at least we are sort of an agreement at the moment of the general strategy and shell of the deck.
So first, we need to determine what kind of field(meta) this deck will be played in. Naturally, we want to beat the most competitive decks available at the moment (or, the most popular). Since this deck will just be a theoretical deck for now, budget concern is not present. (Budget concern shouldn't be present in anycase, anyway)
So, to sum some of the successful decks recently: (some with more success than others)
-Painter's.dec
-Control Slaver
-5c Stax
-Drain Tendrils
-Oath
-UW Fish
-Ichorid
Generally, the Vintage meta-game right now is quite diverse, so, it's hard to find a deck that beats everything obviously. Just play with me on this, to make things more democratic I'd like you (who are interested) to list top 4 decks to beat, then another top 4 decks to keep in mind.
Meaning, over the weekend, we will have determined the majorities opinions on our "fictional" meta-game of sort. And, from there, we can start discussing what type of deck we want to answer this field with. E.G Control/Combo/Aggro/Mixed etc. And examples of cards/combinations/strategies which are good against the given decks.
NOTE: I'm not saying I'm the one who should "lead" this deck development by all means, you guys are probably better in creating decks than I am, so if anyone disagrees or have something else to add. Please:)
I hope people will be interested (just for the fun of it at least). For me, if this works out, it will be quite educative. In ways about finding other deck's strength and weaknesses and creative/strategical deck-building. Wether or not the deck will be a success or not, still, we gather some information and go through a learning proccess.
More minds think better than one
[EMAIL="D3@D"]D3@D[/EMAIL]
The top 4 decks to beat. (my opinion)
1 CS
2 Long/drain tendrils
3 painter
4 fish
Ichorid is always a problem, but good sideboarding from any deck can beat it without any really problems.
top 4 (my opinion)
1 CS
2 Painter
3 Drain Tendrils
4 Oath
huey336: I agree with you concerning Ichorid. We shouldn't meta-game our MD against this arch-type, just keep it in mind when we make a sideboard.
1 Control Slaver
2 Painter
3 Long/Drain tendrils
4 Fish
In a format which we can all agree is so dominated by combo-ish decks I'd tend to think the best type of deck to run would be Aggro with as much disruption as possible. Land kill, Null Rods, Discard, StP all seem good in this format.
So the challenge may be to find the right combination of disruption to keep the combo decks in check.
Our deck will be concentrated towards:
1 Control Slaver
2 Painter
3 Long/Drain tendrils
4 Fish
With Oath and Ichorid as the two main "outsiders" of choice.
So far, Aggro has been suggested as our starting point, which IMO isn't a bad idea.
Any thoughts around this? Suggestions on where to go next?
Maybe we could sumarize some key points of streangth and weaknesses of these decks?
D3@D
so here is the shell of the deck
null rod
goyf
bob
thoughtseize
duress
wasteland, stripmine
and maybe something like rootmaze.
These cards together address all the above decks.
We need some sweet disruption against large-critters (DC, Akroma and friends) as well as perhaps some MD tech against Ichorid so that we do not auto scoop game one.
First that comes to mind to combat large bodies is Maze of Ith. Or splash a 3rd color of White to get access to Swords to Plow or something. Or maybe Pernicious Deed could work?
I'll try working on a suggestion-list when I get home (from work)
D3@D
Gaddock is amazing in this environment. Shuts off Forces, Tendrils, pretty much anything that hurts you.
Root maze is unplayable in this because of the amount of fetchs we'll have to run.
Also, Extripate is absolutely nuts.
How about something like this?
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hidden Herd
Spells
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Exitirpate
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Life from the Loam
Mana
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Doran, the Siege Tower
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Hidden Guerrillas
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 gaddock teeg
4 glowrider or aven mindsensor
2 ronam unicorn
spells 22
3 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 life from the loam
3 swords to plowshears
2 extipate
2 hide//seek
3 null rod
1 vamp tutor
1 demonic tutor
2 tutor targets
1 lotus
3 mox
1 lotus petal
4 waste
1 strip
3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 savannah
4 windswept heath
The tutor targets can be darkblast, deed, edict, or any other one of target that can be good.
Jitte would be good to re-fill our lives from Bob + it makes our critters better.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
1 Badlands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Tarmogoyf
Spells:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Balance
1 Chrome Mox
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Extirpate
4 Hide // Seek
1 Maze of Ith
3 Slaughter Pact
2 Viashino Heretic
Squee + Bazaar is a ridiculous draw engine. Squee + Zombie Infestation is a pain. Add to that Confidant and a few Flashback/Dredge 1-ofs and you have an extremely resilient deck. You will most likely see 2/3 of your whole deck in any given game. It plays very fish-like in edging out the opponent, working on CA and dealing those 2-4 dmg a turn when you can. Hide // Seek is the MVP here, it almost always comes in Game 2-3. There's no Leyline but you could make room for it - I'm just not sure how it would interact with DConf. Maybe Tormod's Crypt would be a better choice.
Also, Jotun Grunt is a delicious budget replacement for Goyf if you dont have the $100+ to shell for a playset.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Lotus Petal makes no sense here as we're not interested in creating one really big turn.
You're undervaluing Extirpate. It is absolutely amazing. Since you play 7 discard spells, you can have them discard something and then extirpate it out.
You can also Strip Mine an Underground Sea and then extirpate it to deprive them of black mana. It's an absolute house.
Tutors seem too slow in this deck, and both Glowrider and Mindcensor are out of place in a deck with so many Noncreature spells and Fetchs.
@DE@D I think Doran isn't really necessary main as he doesn't have an awesome effect and you should be able to take your time with damage once you've killed your opponents land/hand.
Leyline should definately be in there in sideboard.
Jitte I think might be too slow... there's other stuff you want to do turns 2-3, and as before the faster kill shouldnt make too much of a difference.
I don't think vindicate fits because the only permanents that are played are Artifacts/Land, and we can already kill/maim those
My two cents,
SK
Your other points are valid, extripate does seem much better when its hitting anything and everything in sight, and the land probably should be upped a little.
Tutors are your 2nd and 3rd stripmines, and they can get you LftL when you dont have it. too good not to play.
One problem I do see with this kind of deck is that it dies to chalice on 1 or 2 (worse on 2) and there is really no way to deal with it.
This goes well with the strategy of stripping the opponent for mana and card resources.
Rainbow-aggro does sound a bit tempting:P
Lotus Petal isn't worth including just because it pumps Goyf. I'd almost always rather have a land in hand so I can play stuff on more than one turn. And again, having a large Goyf isnt a priority here.
I still don't know about the Mindcensor, I dont think theres realy anything to cut for it.
Chalice shouldn't be too much of a problem. The only way it gets down for 2 against you is if you're playing $TAX AND they're playing first AND they have Mishra's Workshop, AND a Mox, AND Chalice in their opening grip AND if they decide for some strange reason to play the Chalice for 2. $TAX will always play it for 0 if they're going first.
After that, you have a ton of stuff to disable it. You can make them discard it with Duress or Thoughtseize and you have Gaddock Teeg to shut it off.
How about this:
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Aven Mindcensor
Spells
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Exitirpate
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Life from the Loam
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Doran, the Siege Tower
4x Jotun Grunt
2x Hide\\Seek
4x Leyline of the Void
Your above list does look really good though. Doran should not be there though. its pretty awful against most of the field, and doesnt really do anything that goyf cant do. Deed should be a 2 of in the board for ichorid and goblins. Not sure what else should be here though. Maybe that new artifact creature 1W that says you can only play one spell a turn??
Deed is good against Goblins but at least where I am, nobody really plays it :S
With 4x Leyline, 4x Jotun Grunt, 4x Gaddock (Can't Flashback Dread Return), and 5x Landkill I think we've got quite a bit against Ichorid.
Maybe that artifact dude against combo decks would be good.
Other than that, I think the deck starts to look like something we could try.
My take:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Tombstalker
Instant: 7
4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Extirpate
1 Vampiric Tutor
Sorcery: 13
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
Artifact: 8
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Leyline of the Void
11 ????
I need to transfer my old hard drive to my new computer and don't have access to MWS yet, but once I do I'll start testing and post my results.
There is a guy that plays a BW deck that is similar to this and has done very well with it so far. making top 8 at the last 3 type one tournys we have had, and this list has alot of similarities. I think we are on the right track with this list but need to solidify the sideboard for any additional matchups we may face.
Playing 6-8 discard-effects + 4-5 strip-effects that can be recurred by LftL + Null Rod denieing the opponent from their artifact mana + some extirpate, and incase they sneak out some creatures, STP should be suffecient to disrupt the enemy. On the otherside. We can't just bet all our money on Tarmogoyf alone to do all the dirty work.
If you don't want Doran, then perhaps something like Phyrexian Negator, but IMO he is comes with more risk and is better suitable to a suicide approach. Didn't some one here say that we need better creatures than fish? then why do we only use 2/2's and 2/1's?
Tendrils and other 4x spells can be prevented by discarding their hand as well as playing a 2/2 creature which can be killed before they combo out.
This is just the way I'm thinking. Enlighten me of the opposite if my logic is wrong.
In anycase, at least we are sort of an agreement at the moment of the general strategy and shell of the deck.
[EMAIL="D3@D"]D3@D[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="D3@D"]D3@D[/EMAIL] we'll just have to agree to disagree for the moment at least until one of us can start testing.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
instant 4
4 Dark Ritual
sorcery 15
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mind Twist
4 Sinkhole
artifact 8
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Darkblast
1 Deglamer
1 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Just came across this build, may not be relevant, but it looks similar to the build we are working with at the moment, without the white.