Done a bit of proxied testing for game one and Bloodghast is insanely good, Dredging for Dakmor Salvage and playing it can net you 4 Bloodghast in the end game, the fetchlands with bloodghasts and even a single Bridge can give you overwhelming Zombie superiority. I have even Dread Returned a Dryad Arbor into play to activate them - I wish I could play more Cabal Therapies.
First you would think that this would be posted in the VINTAGE THREAD under Ichorid, because buddy you're on to something that's all on our minds.
Bloodghast has been praised as the future indeed to null all decks that're manaless.........now I don't agree because the're alot of players that really enjoy the freebies, but that's a different post.
Gone*
Dread Return, and if someone needs the {WHY} I have it.
Any and all Recur creatures that were needed before.......gone pointless
The offbalance land scheme......gone, and replaced with a silky smooth....you get the picture.
Full advantage;
the guy/girl running this build, over the ones of late.
Tested;
oh yeah, and I was on the receiving end..........:o still not over the beating I took:eyebrow:.
Is the idea crazy;
Yeah I'm going to use forces in a deck that provides almost everything without tapping a single land........right, No dread returns..........take a moment, and you can see why this deck doesn't need them.
I'm surely in the progress of adding this key peices to my already stellar ichorid collection.........and I hope everyone on this site see this deck!
Added*
THE FORCE OF WILL
Careful study
breakthrough
crop Rotation
darkblast
Say this part with me............Rainbow Lands:p.
crop rotationg COULD be good for this deck, giving consistency in finding your bazzar, but WHY WOULD YOU EVER sacrifice your explosive win via Dread return to replace it for such a blank disruption as FoW, I mean seriously, Unmask and Cabal is enought for this deck Because it can easilly kill very early, but without dread return a) there's NO reason to run narcomoebas, i mean a 1/1 flyier is laughtable, and the aditional FoW won't give you the 2 or 3 extra turn that'd take you to finish your oponents with only ichorids, and for the record, no, bloodghast does not fit in this deck.
Crop rotation: good idea now that's unrestricted
FoW: probably not
Dread return: only reason you'd run this deck in vintage in the first place
Bloodghast: too slow for vintage and having to drop a land is way too restrictive to this deck, even the mana versions
I don't have any problem with Ichorid running FoW, but builds with Bloodghast are not ideally suited, there have been successful Ichorid builds with Force of Will but I was hoping to spur discussion on Bloodghast.
In my short bout of testing Bloodghast has speeded up the kill speed and consistency remarkably, the Fetchlands are huge - I do like the idea of possibly including Crop Rotation, but am troubled by finding Green mana untapped and the time to use it.
As to dropping the Dread Return, the build I am using explodes often times casting all 3 Dread in the turn it kills. It's a card that I absolutely think needs to stay.
One small change, Sphinx of Lost Truths in place of one of the Serums.
I'm very confused here.
What in the world is this deck doing?
Do you just bring Bloodghast and Ichorid back from the grave and attack? What happens when they get a Tarmogoyf? Why is this good at all?
I'm so confused.
Maybe someone could play me on MWS with this to show me exactly what it does?
The point is that you get overwhelmed by all the recurring creatures (bridge from below tokens, ichorid, ghast, anything dredged, etc) before 1 or even 2 tarmogoyfs will race you.
If you haven't seen dredge in action then you definitely need to.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Piloting:
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
You only need 14 cards in a deck for the percentage of Force to be viable, so this a possibility. Land spots have been in S.B. for ichorid for that last 4 years maybe, and the point of the deck is to do just that.........overwhelm. Chalice is only a great card if you go first with ichorid, and have been dropped for other slots such as Breakthrough ect.
Play against this deck via Wstation or an opp, maybe you will see the power, maybe not. The S.B. would handle the Voids, and for that matter most of anything........with force and unmask backup.
I'm out
S.M.
I still don't see how FoW can be reliable in this deck. With only 15 blue cards altogether, 7 of which you want to cast ASAP, it just seems forced (especially since this deck wants to mulligan and keep an almost empty hand). Also, cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance, as well as Chalice on 1 give this deck a much bigger headache than to more traditional builds. I agree that mana ichorid is the way to go, but not to the extent where you're sacrificing powerhouses like Bridge from Below and Dread Return or consistency like Serum Powder #4.
Basically, this version seems less consistent and slower than traditional builds. Sure, it can fight against hate better with the Forces, but what good is fighting hate when you could race it instead? Also, you basically still need the same hate-hate cards as before (Chain, Contagion, Charm) since the Forces won't be enough, nor can they get rid of Leylines.
PS: 3 Gemstone Mine in the SB? Talk about wasted slots ...
This doesn't look like an improvement on current Ichorid builds to me. You aren't going to consistently have land drops to make until you can dredge your singleton Dakmor, and by that time you should have enough in the graveyard to win that turn anyway. I don't think trading Leyline of the Void, Unmasks and Golgari Thugs for more recurring creatures and extra lands is a good trade. Just my opinion.
EDIT: Also the list in the first post is missing cards, I assume at least 4 of them are Bridge from Below.
Updated first post to include 4 Bridges and 4 Thugs then edited to reflect 1 less Serum Powder and added Sphinx.
SKRules - this is a very fast deck, it usually would laugh at a Tarmogoyf, because the Tarmogoyf can't do something very important - either kill itself or die in combat - which removes the bridges from the game.
Brief typical description:
Turn 1 - Mulligan into Bazaar, use Bazaar, ideally discard 2 Dredgers - Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweek Imp for example and something like a Bridge from Below. Could play a Chalice at 0 to slow down opponent.
Turn 2 - During Upkeep activate Bazaar, Dredging 11 Cards, revealing Bloodghast, another Bridge, 2 Narcoameoba and other assorteds. Discard same dredgers as before and Cabal Therapy. Narcoameobas comes into play.
Draw phase: Dredge Grave Troll again for 6 (17 cards dredged, 7 Cards starting, 2 cards drawn - about halfway thru your deck) revealing Fatesticher, Bloodghast and a Dread Return.
Play Misty Rainforest which returns both Bloodghasts to play. Use Flashback on Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will on opponent to clear the way - sacrificing Bloodghast. This generates 2 Zombies. Sacrifice 2 Zombies & other Bloodghast to flashback Dread Return Fatesticher. Activate Fatesticher to untap Bazaar - Dredge another 11 getting a Flame-kin Zealot, another Dread Return and another Bridge. Activate Misty Rainforest getting Dryad Arbor and returning both Bloodghasts to play.
Cards in Play 2 Bloodghasts, Fatesticher, 2 Narcoameobas, Dryad Arbor, Bazaar and possibly Chalice. 28 Dredged, 2 drawn, 1 land searched, 7 cards to start - so 38 cards into the deck - only two bridges revealed in graveyard. Cabal Therapy again removing Daze or whatever to totally clear the way using Fatesticher.
Options here include Option #1: win by saccing Dryad Arbor & 2 Bloodghasts to Dread Return Flame-Kin Zealot, thus generating 6 Zombies (2 Narcos still in play) and attacking with Hasted creatures for 25. Tarmogoyf played with Lotus Petal and Tropical Island blocks one.
Option#2 Alternatively could have Dread Returned Sphinx and then using Sphinx CiP abilty dredged another 17 or 18, bringing up another 1 or 2 bridges allowing a followup with more Zombies on a final dread return.
Option #3 Furthermore alternatively could have Dread Returned Sadistic Hypnotist to play and sacced off 3 (or more) non-token creatures to strip opponents hand generating 6 more Zombies to kill them next turn with 12 zombies and no hand. Bloodghasts and Ichorids would be coming out for fun next turn - this does seem like a win more option.
This is a good draw, not an ideal draw, but just wanted to give you an example. I think non-Bloodghast Ichorid can kill on turn 2.7 reasonably reliably - Fatesticher is really helping this speed and making me think I might want to increase my build to 2 Fatestichers. But I think this build drops the turn average down to killing on turn 2.5 - the Bloodghasts can be absolutely huge in allowing extra Dread Returns and less worries about using up creatures with Cabal Therapies - just not sure the extra speed is needed/necessary.
**Edit starts here, so after reading the above, I realized it's incorrect, guess I should preview it more. That's what I get for typing something quickly off the cuff.
When you Dread Return the Fatesticher, you cannot then use it to tap the Bazaar as it has summoning sickness, so in it's place Dread Return a Sphinx it's CiP is better then the Fatesticher tapping the Bazaar since you get to draw/dredge another card over and above the 2 from the Bazaar. Furthermore you get tokens off the sacrifice, I was stuck in the mindset of Unearthing the Fatesticher, so I used it right away and then thought it was removed from the game so it didn't generate tokens.
As a further aside the line of play naming involving Cabal Therapy is faulty, I should name Daze first then name Force of Will. Ok enough editing.**edit ends.
I was just excited to share a new deck {different Dredge} that contains this new creature/and forces. I said earlier that I don't feel that manaless Ichorid is going to fade, or that for that matter stop taking home those sweet victories.
I was the guy that faced the deck, and was pawn'd maybe out of surprise. I'm still stuck on the builds run 8 lands {4x Bazaar/City}, and I'm still using the Sadistic/Fate's as well.
I'm going to stay posted on this thread to at least see more of your idea's, and ofcourse follow this new dredge Key {the chosen one:rolleyes:}
S.M.
I like Crop Rotation as well because it activates Bloodghasts. That could make it possible to use more than one Dread Return in a turn, if you would need to.
Here is an Force of Will based Ichorid that took 1st in a recent tournament. Again I think that Bloodghast builds will be something different, possibly incoroporating more Green and using Crop Rotation.
Ive been questioning how good bloodghast would be in vintage also. There is no question I think it will see play in all other formats... Currently I use crop rotation instead of serum powder (i hate the card). It seems as reliable to get it with a gemstone mine or city of brass turn 1.... (Only 1/11 times did it go to 1 card without either a bazaar or the combo). I acctually have been trying nether shadow for some time as it fuels your therapy/dread rreturn/bridges faster than just narcomeba. Having more recurring creatures = faster combo/win.
But having more of those creatures can also mean less dreadge-cards which isn't too good if you go over the line. Now, I'm not sure how fare the line goes though. Perhaps something between 12-16 dredge? Or do we need less with stitchers?
But having more of those creatures can also mean less dreadge-cards which isn't too good if you go over the line. Now, I'm not sure how fare the line goes though. Perhaps something between 12-16 dredge? Or do we need less with stitchers?
Play Misty Rainforest which returns both Bloodghasts to play. Use Flashback on Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will on opponent to clear the way - sacrificing Bloodghast. This generates 2 Zombies. Sacrifice 2 Zombies & other Bloodghast to flashback Dread Return Fatesticher. Activate Fatesticher to untap Bazaar - Dredge another 11 getting a Flame-kin Zealot, another Dread Return and another Bridge. Activate Misty Rainforest getting Dryad Arbor and returning both Bloodghasts to play.
Wouldn't you have to wait until turn three to activate Fatestitcher? Or am I missing something...
Corrected that play line in an edit the other day, read down at the bottom of the post - gave an alternative line of play Dread Returning a Sphinx which is stricltly superior to unearthing the Fatesticher as it draws an additional card, leaves you with a 3/5 Flyer, doesn't require the Bazaar and generates tokens when it's sacrificed which I also forgot.
I really want to see some 5 colour ichorid builds to see play that aren't all about dumping everything into grave and swinging on turn 3 like a robot.
something with balance and crop rotation and unmasks/fows. A control build.
and because you don't dump everything into grave you are less effected by crypt/relic and because you have mana alot of the other ichorid hate wont work.
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcoamoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Fatesticher
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard mixed containing Chain of Vapor, Contagion, Emerald Charm, Ingot Chewer and Angel of Despair. Maybe even Iona will be worth a slot in the future.
Done a bit of proxied testing for game one and Bloodghast is insanely good, Dredging for Dakmor Salvage and playing it can net you 4 Bloodghast in the end game, the fetchlands with bloodghasts and even a single Bridge can give you overwhelming Zombie superiority. I have even Dread Returned a Dryad Arbor into play to activate them - I wish I could play more Cabal Therapies.
Curious as to opinions.
Edit zone: updating deck
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcoamoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Fatesticher
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
Bloodghast has been praised as the future indeed to null all decks that're manaless.........now I don't agree because the're alot of players that really enjoy the freebies, but that's a different post.
Gone*
Dread Return, and if someone needs the {WHY} I have it.
Any and all Recur creatures that were needed before.......gone pointless
The offbalance land scheme......gone, and replaced with a silky smooth....you get the picture.
Full advantage;
the guy/girl running this build, over the ones of late.
Tested;
oh yeah, and I was on the receiving end..........:o still not over the beating I took:eyebrow:.
Is the idea crazy;
Yeah I'm going to use forces in a deck that provides almost everything without tapping a single land........right, No dread returns..........take a moment, and you can see why this deck doesn't need them.
I'm surely in the progress of adding this key peices to my already stellar ichorid collection.........and I hope everyone on this site see this deck!
Added*
THE FORCE OF WILL
Careful study
breakthrough
crop Rotation
darkblast
Say this part with me............Rainbow Lands:p.
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcoamoeba
4x Bloodghast
4x Force of Will
4x Breakthrough
3x Careful Study
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Unmask
2x Crop Rotation
2x Dakmor Salvage
3x City of Brass
2x Gemstone Mine
3x Cephalid Coliseum
S.B.
3x Gemstone Mine
2x Emerald Charm
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Contagion
3x Extripate
2x Ingot Chewer
Crop rotation: good idea now that's unrestricted
FoW: probably not
Dread return: only reason you'd run this deck in vintage in the first place
Bloodghast: too slow for vintage and having to drop a land is way too restrictive to this deck, even the mana versions
In my short bout of testing Bloodghast has speeded up the kill speed and consistency remarkably, the Fetchlands are huge - I do like the idea of possibly including Crop Rotation, but am troubled by finding Green mana untapped and the time to use it.
As to dropping the Dread Return, the build I am using explodes often times casting all 3 Dread in the turn it kills. It's a card that I absolutely think needs to stay.
One small change, Sphinx of Lost Truths in place of one of the Serums.
What in the world is this deck doing?
Do you just bring Bloodghast and Ichorid back from the grave and attack? What happens when they get a Tarmogoyf? Why is this good at all?
I'm so confused.
Maybe someone could play me on MWS with this to show me exactly what it does?
If you haven't seen dredge in action then you definitely need to.
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
Play against this deck via Wstation or an opp, maybe you will see the power, maybe not. The S.B. would handle the Voids, and for that matter most of anything........with force and unmask backup.
I'm out
S.M.
EDIT: Also the list in the first post is missing cards, I assume at least 4 of them are Bridge from Below.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
SKRules - this is a very fast deck, it usually would laugh at a Tarmogoyf, because the Tarmogoyf can't do something very important - either kill itself or die in combat - which removes the bridges from the game.
Brief typical description:
Turn 1 - Mulligan into Bazaar, use Bazaar, ideally discard 2 Dredgers - Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweek Imp for example and something like a Bridge from Below. Could play a Chalice at 0 to slow down opponent.
Turn 2 - During Upkeep activate Bazaar, Dredging 11 Cards, revealing Bloodghast, another Bridge, 2 Narcoameoba and other assorteds. Discard same dredgers as before and Cabal Therapy. Narcoameobas comes into play.
Draw phase: Dredge Grave Troll again for 6 (17 cards dredged, 7 Cards starting, 2 cards drawn - about halfway thru your deck) revealing Fatesticher, Bloodghast and a Dread Return.
Play Misty Rainforest which returns both Bloodghasts to play. Use Flashback on Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will on opponent to clear the way - sacrificing Bloodghast. This generates 2 Zombies. Sacrifice 2 Zombies & other Bloodghast to flashback Dread Return Fatesticher. Activate Fatesticher to untap Bazaar - Dredge another 11 getting a Flame-kin Zealot, another Dread Return and another Bridge. Activate Misty Rainforest getting Dryad Arbor and returning both Bloodghasts to play.
Cards in Play 2 Bloodghasts, Fatesticher, 2 Narcoameobas, Dryad Arbor, Bazaar and possibly Chalice. 28 Dredged, 2 drawn, 1 land searched, 7 cards to start - so 38 cards into the deck - only two bridges revealed in graveyard. Cabal Therapy again removing Daze or whatever to totally clear the way using Fatesticher.
Options here include Option #1: win by saccing Dryad Arbor & 2 Bloodghasts to Dread Return Flame-Kin Zealot, thus generating 6 Zombies (2 Narcos still in play) and attacking with Hasted creatures for 25. Tarmogoyf played with Lotus Petal and Tropical Island blocks one.
Option#2 Alternatively could have Dread Returned Sphinx and then using Sphinx CiP abilty dredged another 17 or 18, bringing up another 1 or 2 bridges allowing a followup with more Zombies on a final dread return.
Option #3 Furthermore alternatively could have Dread Returned Sadistic Hypnotist to play and sacced off 3 (or more) non-token creatures to strip opponents hand generating 6 more Zombies to kill them next turn with 12 zombies and no hand. Bloodghasts and Ichorids would be coming out for fun next turn - this does seem like a win more option.
But then of course sideboards come into play and Leyline of the Void, Jailer, Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt all come out to play - there are answers but can you find them fast enough.
This is a good draw, not an ideal draw, but just wanted to give you an example. I think non-Bloodghast Ichorid can kill on turn 2.7 reasonably reliably - Fatesticher is really helping this speed and making me think I might want to increase my build to 2 Fatestichers. But I think this build drops the turn average down to killing on turn 2.5 - the Bloodghasts can be absolutely huge in allowing extra Dread Returns and less worries about using up creatures with Cabal Therapies - just not sure the extra speed is needed/necessary.
**Edit starts here, so after reading the above, I realized it's incorrect, guess I should preview it more. That's what I get for typing something quickly off the cuff.
When you Dread Return the Fatesticher, you cannot then use it to tap the Bazaar as it has summoning sickness, so in it's place Dread Return a Sphinx it's CiP is better then the Fatesticher tapping the Bazaar since you get to draw/dredge another card over and above the 2 from the Bazaar. Furthermore you get tokens off the sacrifice, I was stuck in the mindset of Unearthing the Fatesticher, so I used it right away and then thought it was removed from the game so it didn't generate tokens.
As a further aside the line of play naming involving Cabal Therapy is faulty, I should name Daze first then name Force of Will. Ok enough editing.**edit ends.
I was the guy that faced the deck, and was pawn'd maybe out of surprise. I'm still stuck on the builds run 8 lands {4x Bazaar/City}, and I'm still using the Sadistic/Fate's as well.
I'm going to stay posted on this thread to at least see more of your idea's, and ofcourse follow this new dredge Key {the chosen one:rolleyes:}
S.M.
Modern
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
RWGBurnGWR
Legacy
UWStonebladeWU
Something like this?
1 River Kelpie
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
3 Crop Rotation
Sorceries: 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
Enchantments: 4
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
Lands: 13
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Cephalid Coliseum
Here is an Force of Will based Ichorid that took 1st in a recent tournament. Again I think that Bloodghast builds will be something different, possibly incoroporating more Green and using Crop Rotation.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19526
Posted for reference
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Contagion
2 Emerald Charm
3 Extirpate
1 Legacy Weapon
4 Pithing Needle
Believe in Christ with all your heart
Dunno I run about 17 dredgers I think..
Believe in Christ with all your heart
Wouldn't you have to wait until turn three to activate Fatestitcher? Or am I missing something...
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Corrected that play line in an edit the other day, read down at the bottom of the post - gave an alternative line of play Dread Returning a Sphinx which is stricltly superior to unearthing the Fatesticher as it draws an additional card, leaves you with a 3/5 Flyer, doesn't require the Bazaar and generates tokens when it's sacrificed which I also forgot.
something with balance and crop rotation and unmasks/fows. A control build.
and because you don't dump everything into grave you are less effected by crypt/relic and because you have mana alot of the other ichorid hate wont work.
Thanks Darth Monkey