I have always been a fan of the neather creatures that came back from the Graveyard for little to no cost. Over the years how ever one stood strongest, Ichorid hes out for a turn he takes his swing and you bring him back again next time.
My question is this, Does anyone else think Bloodghast may have the muscle to unseat the Horror from Torment?
Landfall can be triggered at anytime with use of a fetch land giving him blocking power, but his haste is conditional and his power is one less, how ever his CC is 2 less.
Ive been having this debate with my friends and I thought Id bring it here where people who know more then I can judge it.
One thing instantly sticks out to me. Neither can be used as blockers. If you look at it that way, I'd say Ichorid is better. Nonconditional haste, higher base attack, no real way to remove other than exile... Of course bloodghast is easier to trigger. The problem there is that bloodghast most of the time has to sit around forever before he can attack. and he can be a very ineffective attacker too. Bloodghast is tribal, so that does give him a point.
Overall I'd say if you have the sac outlet Ichorid is better. of course, bloodghast doesn't need a deck built around him.
Ive also seen the effect a buried alive off a dark ritual off a lotus petal can do when you have a fetch land in play ready to sac at end of turn so that the ghasts show up swinging on your turn.
Also theres nothing to say these 2 cards wont work beautifully together, maybe ghast will slide right into vintage Ichorid
I would say that if you look at most decks that are called Ichorid you will see that Bloodghast is winning the race rather handily, it has been my contention that Ichorid as a deck archetype should be switched to the name of Dredge. With that said, Ichorid still has a place in Vintage, it's just that at the moment Bloodghast is doing it better in many respects.
It's either going to be:
- Bob
- Welder
- Trygon
- Inkwell
- Terrastadon
You block weenies you lose your bridges. You can't block Terrastadon/Inkwell since they trample and you are losing if you are in the position to block rather than race.
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I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
It's either going to be:
- Bob
- Welder
- Trygon
- Inkwell
- Terrastadon
You block weenies you lose your bridges. You can't block Terrastadon/Inkwell since they trample and you are losing if you are in the position to block rather than race.
Despite its appearance, Terastodon does not trample. It can be chumped all day.
Bloodghast can congregate as a 2-3 of in your graveyard and come out on a landfall and sac to a dread return or cabal therapy. There is a reason that most lists run both these days.
Going to chime in again for those who think that Ichorid is better, he does continue to see play, but check competitive winning vintage decks and Bloodghast is almost over present in larger quantities. In the abstract Ichorid is probably a better creature on a given turn, but Bloodghast recurs more easily and gives your deck a bit more resiliency to graveyard hate. The ratio is pretty much 4:2 Ghasts to Ichs.
Here are the 2 most recent decklist from Dredge up on Deckcheck, showing exactly this ratio. Feel free to check back and you will see that Bloodghast is more highly played pretty much since shortly after it's release.
I like 4:0 Ichorid vs Bloodghast, but that's because I like being able to play only 5 mana producing lands and business in the rest of the slots pre-sideboard. Based on tournament results, Ghast is pretty obviously doing better though.
I like 4:0 Ichorid vs Bloodghast, but that's because I like being able to play only 5 mana producing lands and business in the rest of the slots pre-sideboard. Based on tournament results, Ghast is pretty obviously doing better though.
Blood Ghasts are more reliable especially with Undiscovered paradise. With Petrified Field in the deck and Sun titan as a Dread returns target (titan getting bazaar, or titan getting field which gets bazaar if you really need more tokens) you can do some silly things with bloodghasts
What it comes down to is it's just easier to return them to play in multiples multiples are good
I didn't mean to dispute that they're good, I'm just saying that the deck doesn't need any mana pre-sideboard and I like not having to play Undiscovered Paradise, Dakmor, Field, etc pre-board and play business and better dredgers instead.
I didn't mean to dispute that they're good, I'm just saying that the deck doesn't need any mana pre-sideboard and I like not having to play Undiscovered Paradise, Dakmor, Field, etc pre-board and play business and better dredgers instead.
I feel that deck has evolved to the point where it benefits more from the small amount of mana game one than it does from redundancy. it already wins game one 70-80%+ of the time. the extra dredgers don't help you if your opponent has any main deck hate at all, which is becoming a lot more common, you basically scoop to dark times game one without the anti-hate and mana in the main deck.
The question you ask yourself...if you win 70%-80% of the time either way...why go for redundancy go for cards that shore up your few weaknesses. doing this gives you just as solid a game one match against the field and improves your game one against the few decks that will give you trouble, and makes your board much stronger since you will have room for more relevant cards.
In all fairness you only scoop to Dark Times if they open or mull to Leyline game 1. On the other hand combo is traditionally tough because they just race you, and without all of that land you can play 4x Chalice, Leyline and Unmask. I expect to see significantly more combo than Dark Times.
Again I'm not saying it's better, and I'm admitting that tournament results say otherwise, just telling you why I prefer it.
if you look at most of the winning dredge decks recently(quick run to deckcheck while you can!) they usually run 4 bloodghast and 2-ichorid. dredge now has evolved to play bloodghasts and run mana now. usually 4 paradice, 4 city, 4 bazaar and 1-2 dakmor salvage. playing colored lands allows you to main deck natures claims, actually cast dark blasts and therapies and to generally fight threw hate better. im not sure y you would be running brainstom or breakthrough in vintage dredge but aside from that you still need mana to cast those meanign you have lands for ghast. ghast comes back more easily than ichorids since they dont have to be in the graveyard at your upkeep.
bloodghast based dredge decks have shown them selves to be more resilient against hate and with so many leylines floating around i would definitely play ghasts over ichorids. but or coarse you dont have to choose just play both
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My question is this, Does anyone else think Bloodghast may have the muscle to unseat the Horror from Torment?
Landfall can be triggered at anytime with use of a fetch land giving him blocking power, but his haste is conditional and his power is one less, how ever his CC is 2 less.
Ive been having this debate with my friends and I thought Id bring it here where people who know more then I can judge it.
Overall I'd say if you have the sac outlet Ichorid is better. of course, bloodghast doesn't need a deck built around him.
My Trading Post
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=226506
Also theres nothing to say these 2 cards wont work beautifully together, maybe ghast will slide right into vintage Ichorid
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36682
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1299
Both contain 4 Bloodghast and less Ichorid, Ichorid in some lists was being left out, but then has come back into favor a bit at least as a two count.
Am I missing something here? You realize that Bloodghast can't block, right?
It's either going to be:
- Bob
- Welder
- Trygon
- Inkwell
- Terrastadon
You block weenies you lose your bridges. You can't block Terrastadon/Inkwell since they trample and you are losing if you are in the position to block rather than race.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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Despite its appearance, Terastodon does not trample. It can be chumped all day.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
Here are the 2 most recent decklist from Dredge up on Deckcheck, showing exactly this ratio. Feel free to check back and you will see that Bloodghast is more highly played pretty much since shortly after it's release.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37272
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37275
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Blood Ghasts are more reliable especially with Undiscovered paradise. With Petrified Field in the deck and Sun titan as a Dread returns target (titan getting bazaar, or titan getting field which gets bazaar if you really need more tokens) you can do some silly things with bloodghasts
What it comes down to is it's just easier to return them to play in multiples multiples are good
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
I feel that deck has evolved to the point where it benefits more from the small amount of mana game one than it does from redundancy. it already wins game one 70-80%+ of the time. the extra dredgers don't help you if your opponent has any main deck hate at all, which is becoming a lot more common, you basically scoop to dark times game one without the anti-hate and mana in the main deck.
The question you ask yourself...if you win 70%-80% of the time either way...why go for redundancy go for cards that shore up your few weaknesses. doing this gives you just as solid a game one match against the field and improves your game one against the few decks that will give you trouble, and makes your board much stronger since you will have room for more relevant cards.
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
Again I'm not saying it's better, and I'm admitting that tournament results say otherwise, just telling you why I prefer it.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Then I actually played Dredge for more than a few rounds.
You're not supposed to be drawing cards, so pulling him back with a land drop shouldnt happen unless you choose to keep one with Brainstorm
In that case, yea, he comes back once.... once...
And you'd need two mana for Breakthrough to do that...
So no, I like Ichorid more.
edit: this is for the B/U minus Bazaar. Obviously Ghast is ridiculously better with the Bazaar variants, but alas, I dont have 225 per Bazaar.
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U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
bloodghast based dredge decks have shown them selves to be more resilient against hate and with so many leylines floating around i would definitely play ghasts over ichorids. but or coarse you dont have to choose just play both
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