im not sure what you are getting at with this argument...
If you have animate in hand and drop wu/dragon with bazaar you win (goldfishing yah)
If you have animate in hand and drop witness/dragon with bazaar you win also.
What do you mean by you need another "important card/something that matters" or whatever with witness? Once you animate dragon youll get your important card in the yard at some point anyways once you animate witness instead of dragon returning the 2nd animate, at that point you get your full deck in hand anyways and can proceed to win via ancestral anyways....There is no "MIGHT" both are equal win conditions. You get your "card that matters" from bazaar recursion.
I think 6boltcolt was confused just as I was because your answer was not worded well initially.
The main bonus I see from Wu is the no-bazaar hand, which happens a lot I guess, but at that point you would have needed to get a dragon into the yard somehow and if you can do that you should have been able to set up a witness win via the same cards. Wu's advantage there is hes somewhat easier to hard cast I guess. I see no reason why you wouldnt run both. Going with only Wu as a win seems just as bad as only going with witness...Most dragon lists ive seen run 2 different win conditions, having a static win condition via citp from Wu is great alongside something like witness that is extreemly flexible and wins via having your deck in hand. Wu is good outside of the combo, but so is witness (ive actually even won games with witness beats back in the day..lol) I cant tell you how many times I have animated witness outside of the combo just to get back an ancestral or a tutor that has ended up winning me games.
That all said. I still think running Orims/Silences is a bad way to go overall. It really sounds like you are forcing Dragon into the "control" roll when it is a combo deck that really really wants to not be. Its difficult playing the control with a deck filled with card dis-advantage. Holding chants/silences in hand to slow down stax just really seems to go against everything Dragon wants to do. If you want to slow down stax then you should really be playing some sort of tempo based control such as the deck that Ochoa created that finished 1st/2nd at gencon. For your sanitys sake, if you play dragon, stick to primary combo, using cards like duress and FoW to stop major threats only (first turn trinisphere on the draw for example) or for protecting your combo (hell even if you must have Orims, it should really be used to protect yourself, not slow down stax). There isnt even a garuntee that Orims during their upkeep is going to do much to help you, at least with Duress or something like it you can hit something specific while getting info on what else to do. It should be every bit as effective, only thing that sucks is against control holding multiple FoWs turn 1 or multiple counters after.
So I saw this thread and I really like the idea of this deck. Does anyone have an updated list of things that have worked and such in comparison with the original list? Also, I have to ask why Entomb isn't played?
Again see my earlier post in this thread about how Graveyard hate is/was hurting this deck as to how effective this strategy can be - but if you are running into a metagame where no one is running graveyard hate it can be golden. The list as presented is still relatively solid.
As to why there is no Entomb...
It's a powerful card, but Bazaar may be more powerful and more the card that suits this deck. Intuition is another card that could be cut to make room for it, but the list wants to support Force of Will and Intuition is Blue. This is a problem in many lists, there are excellent card choices, but you want to firmly keep your list at 60. With that said if you want to include Entomb, no one will fault you, I don't think that magic requires anyone to play exactly the same deck as everyone else, play to suit your playstyle.
Here's a viable {archtype} Worldgorger Dragon deck.
My first post will contain a 1st place winning build as always, and from there I'll attach my current Wu Spy build soon.
I'm still waiting to see your wu spy build. And I would love it if you made a second attempt to explain the difference between spy and witness. I don't really get what you are aiming at.
A spy on the battlefield before you do the dragon loop is a win condition by itself and can dig for any necessary answers as well, no Bazaar or other draw engine required (admittedly, it's not very likely that you'll have a dragon in the yard without a Bazaar in the current build though).
I'm still waiting to see your wu spy build. And I would love it if you made a second attempt to explain the difference between spy and witness. I don't really get what you are aiming at.
Doom said it best {as I've introduced and confirmed before}, and imo I feel that the U/B version just feels more consistant.
Wu Spy can end a games with being online and with just one animate spell hitting the dragon, hense you don't need multi cards in your yard to get this ubber effect.
Wu Spy "online"
Dragon in Yard!
One Animate Spell hitting Dragon... = Game if unchecked.
S.M.
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that's a good thing to consider. since my hands do feel weak without bazaar. ut it wouldnt necessarily matter then. point taken sir.
If you have animate in hand and drop wu/dragon with bazaar you win (goldfishing yah)
If you have animate in hand and drop witness/dragon with bazaar you win also.
What do you mean by you need another "important card/something that matters" or whatever with witness? Once you animate dragon youll get your important card in the yard at some point anyways once you animate witness instead of dragon returning the 2nd animate, at that point you get your full deck in hand anyways and can proceed to win via ancestral anyways....There is no "MIGHT" both are equal win conditions. You get your "card that matters" from bazaar recursion.
I think 6boltcolt was confused just as I was because your answer was not worded well initially.
The main bonus I see from Wu is the no-bazaar hand, which happens a lot I guess, but at that point you would have needed to get a dragon into the yard somehow and if you can do that you should have been able to set up a witness win via the same cards. Wu's advantage there is hes somewhat easier to hard cast I guess. I see no reason why you wouldnt run both. Going with only Wu as a win seems just as bad as only going with witness...Most dragon lists ive seen run 2 different win conditions, having a static win condition via citp from Wu is great alongside something like witness that is extreemly flexible and wins via having your deck in hand. Wu is good outside of the combo, but so is witness (ive actually even won games with witness beats back in the day..lol) I cant tell you how many times I have animated witness outside of the combo just to get back an ancestral or a tutor that has ended up winning me games.
That all said. I still think running Orims/Silences is a bad way to go overall. It really sounds like you are forcing Dragon into the "control" roll when it is a combo deck that really really wants to not be. Its difficult playing the control with a deck filled with card dis-advantage. Holding chants/silences in hand to slow down stax just really seems to go against everything Dragon wants to do. If you want to slow down stax then you should really be playing some sort of tempo based control such as the deck that Ochoa created that finished 1st/2nd at gencon. For your sanitys sake, if you play dragon, stick to primary combo, using cards like duress and FoW to stop major threats only (first turn trinisphere on the draw for example) or for protecting your combo (hell even if you must have Orims, it should really be used to protect yourself, not slow down stax). There isnt even a garuntee that Orims during their upkeep is going to do much to help you, at least with Duress or something like it you can hit something specific while getting info on what else to do. It should be every bit as effective, only thing that sucks is against control holding multiple FoWs turn 1 or multiple counters after.
i'd definately like to improve the deck. how do i post a proper list?
Hershey, PA
Standard Decks:
U/B Control
Legacy:
Dredge
Vintage:
Dredge
Cat Stax Fever
ANT
EDH:
TBD
As to why there is no Entomb...
It's a powerful card, but Bazaar may be more powerful and more the card that suits this deck. Intuition is another card that could be cut to make room for it, but the list wants to support Force of Will and Intuition is Blue. This is a problem in many lists, there are excellent card choices, but you want to firmly keep your list at 60. With that said if you want to include Entomb, no one will fault you, I don't think that magic requires anyone to play exactly the same deck as everyone else, play to suit your playstyle.
I'm still waiting to see your wu spy build. And I would love it if you made a second attempt to explain the difference between spy and witness. I don't really get what you are aiming at.
Thanks to Numotflame96 @ Maelstrom Graphics for awesome sig.
Kill with POWER!
Card List
Skithiryx, Tainted World
Dragon's Nest * Double Dragon * Bladewing the Risen
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Doom said it best {as I've introduced and confirmed before}, and imo I feel that the U/B version just feels more consistant.
Wu Spy can end a games with being online and with just one animate spell hitting the dragon, hense you don't need multi cards in your yard to get this ubber effect.
Wu Spy "online"
Dragon in Yard!
One Animate Spell hitting Dragon...
= Game if unchecked.
S.M.