Except that both Street Wraith and Baubles become waste when you get the dredge engine up and running. I'd rather dredge up some good stuff, like a Bridge from below. They're worthless in the yard. (Granted, so are Leylines and Chalices of the Void, but those are worth the slots)
I run 4 Mishra's Baubles AND 4 Street Wraiths in my build. I've found running the optimal 52 cards instead of 60 is good Also, I've thought of putting a singleton Angel of Despair into my deck just in case my opponent resolves a Platinum Angel.
i usuly win turn 3 at least, i never have to worry about my opponent dropping a plat, hoever you make a good point.
He makes A point, but not a good one. The build doesn't need to sacrifice slots for bad cards that are only relevant in your hand. Dredge is all about the graveyard, and dredging stuff into your yard. If something that only works from your hand goes to the yard, then you've just wasted a perfectly good slot on crap. The only stuff you'd ever want in your hand are Bazaar (obviously), Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, or Unmask, depending on the type of deck your opponent is running (all four in the opening hand is pretty good!) Typically, that accounts for 15 cards in your deck. Assuming he is running all of those (He is probably not running Unmask, but it's good in the deck), then why would he want to waste 8 more slots? Those slots should be used for dredge, Ichorids, disruption (Therapy) and kill cards (Silver bullets like Sundering Titan/Angel of Despair, Zealot, Dread Return). Good stuff.
but im still having some hard time playing with it. can anyone please explain to me in steps how to execute this deck properly? i get confused with when i get to dredge and ll the tricks. and when do i unmask myself for a dredge next turn? im soo confused!
(M:tG) It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
That way, you simply have more silver bullet tech. It's worked great for me. Angel of Despair can take out important permanents, so it's almost an auto-include. Plus, it's a big flier
Sundering Titan is there to wreck manabases. If they're running something like Tyrant Oath, you can take out a lot of lands- Trops, Seas, Volcanics, just plain islands- the combinations are ruinous to their strategy. Plus, when +1/+1 and hasted, it can win games. Worth the small loss in consistency over losing a Sage.
And let the SB be more consistent with the deck, I.E. B/G as opposed to trying to splash R/G in there:
Contagion and Sickening Shoal are great versus problematic creatures like Yixlid Jailer or Tidespout Tyrant (A lot of your black cards are 4CC, and Angel of Despair can also be pitched for a huge -X/-X). Reverent Silences and Oxidizes are obvious here. I prefer Oxidize to ancient grudge, mosly because you don't need to splash red for it.
Thanks Glurman! i will include sundering titan and angel of despair into my deck! I will be removing one unmask and maintain 1 sage making it to 61 deck count. is that ok? The sideboards well i have yet to fix them and test your advice on my side.
So Glurman can you post a "step by step" execution of this deck? I really get confused when to dredge and when i cant. This is my first time palying with dredge so i get a bit confused...
(M:tG) It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
you dont really need the titan, but its your list, i like the sage cause right before i go off for the win, i drop them to get rid of the last couple cards in my deck
Sage is usually not needed unless you need to dredge up more Bridges, and I find that 1x is usually plenty. I suppose it depends on your meta.
@GTX: I think that an even 60 is nice, but I've seen 61 card decks win tourneys too. If you want to pilot the deck, PM me and you can test against me on MWS.
Definitely put the fourth in there. However, Chalice for 0 is still a very powerful play, so I would recommend cutting something else. Do you have a list?
Glurman why are you saying Street Wraiths are dead draws later on? There food for Ichorid when need be. Also im intested to here you replies on my Ichorid build.
the salvage is a no go, drayads are creatuers so you can sack them to stuff, plus salvage is a wasted deck slot, it dosent help at all. also grulman heres my list. Artifacts 4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Serum Powder
3 Urza's Bauble
Oxidize is the best there is. Also, here's my opinions on your build Val:
Maindeck your leylines. Maindeck your Dryad Arbors. Take out the baubles, they suck. Add the fourth dread return. Your sideboard is better with something like this (This is my current sideboard):
Remove the shambling shells (dredge 3 is way too weak) and street wraiths (they don't do any good, to be honest. I played with them, and felt that they just always sucked. Sure, additional opportunities to dredge are great, but you can usually draw 3 cards a turn, via your draw and bazaar)
I would also run the silver bullets like Angel of Despair and Sundering Titan. You also could use more disruption. Might I suggest 3x Unmask?
If you do that, the deck will become more consistent, more powerful, and win more often
glurman, I disagree. I've found Street Wraiths decent, to say the least. Also, Ancient Grudge is much better than Oxidize, because you only need to get an Arbor and you can just keep milling 'till you hit the Grudge into your hand. Oxidize does the same things, but you have to get it into your opening hand.
Unless they use more hate than just Pithing Needle, of course... Which they do. It's a combined assault, with graveyard hate as WELL as needles. Thus, ancient grudge gets shut down. I used to run them, but Oxidizes do the same job, for the same cost, without needing to be in the hated-out yard. If your meta doesn't run leylines (Which means your meta is kind of strange), then by all means go for grudges. I'd rather be able to play it from my hand with a Dryad or Bayou on turn one or two. Grudge doesn't come online until FAR later. That's the biggest point. How the hell do you get grudge into your yard if they needle bazaar on turn one? You have to wait until your discard step, and have 8 cards in hand (with all the mulliganing you do, good luck winning). Speed is CRUCIAL in vintage. I moved to the Oxidize route.
Also, a Needle on Bazaar seems like gg to your deck, as taking out both Baubles and Wraiths means you're basically stuck with your draw step. Also, the numerous anti-hate cards in your main deck make your deck less powerful in g1, something you should consistently win in just about any matchup.
Leylines aren't anti-hate in the maindeck. They're good in game one, because they protect your Bridges. The deck still runs fast and brutal.
they sideboard 12 or so cards, I don't know what to sideboard
- they win game 2, I sideboard my anti-sideboard cards
- third game is around 50:50
So I have to work on my decklist knowledge to guess what they'll sideboard in for game 2, so I can sideboard in game 2 already, meaning I have a much higher chance of winning.
You sideboard in all your hate game 2, and win. There is no 50:50 there. You can board out leylines if they don't have any creatures (storm), chalices if they don't run any 0 or 1-cc spells, and your silver bullets or disruption if they are playing aggro. Works almost every time. (note that I typically do not board in contagions or shoals unless I can tell what deck they're playing. I board them in against stuff like UGb thresh, which packs jailers in the board)
I agree partially, but once they get out Leyline AND Needle, you should really take care of the Leyline first, because the Bazaar won't do **** even if you can activate it.
It'll draw you two cards, which could be, potentially, a bayou/arbor and a reverent silence
Glurman try my version on mws u guys have 2 play my deck 2 understand it, never slower than a turn 3 win
I am going to leave this post up as an example of how NOT to write on these forums any more. This post is guilty of both poor grammar (essentially IM writing), and of a lack of content which will no longer be tolerated on these forums. This is a warning for everyone; please ensure that your posts support any claims you make either with logical arguments or valid statistical data. Data of this sort should be limited to playtesting sessions in which you play the same match multiple times, both pre and post board, and/or tournament results. MWS testing is NOT valid for the sake of supporting your argument if your partner is just a random individual on one of the servers which you only play one match with. As for logical arguments, try to support your ideas with well thought out reasoning, and avoid the use of any demagoguery, as this detracts from educated discussion. Please excuse this digression from the topic at hand, but I felt it necessary to make an example.
Dryad Arbors are free, and they sac to dread return and cabal therapy. Thus making you up to 4 more zombies. Just because you don't have to jump through hoops to get them into play. That's the whole reason you play Narcomoebas as well
i play ichorid. its kinda my thing. in this post i would like to first present my decklist for discussion, and second, discuss my choices for those cards and their value in the format post restrictions.
ok, now, there are some cards in ichorid that just go in ichorid. they have to, im not going to tell you about why these are good or why they are in the deck.
these cards are
bridge
ichorid
bazaar
troll thug and imp
dread return
and the rest of the combo pieces
the reason for the disruption,(leylines and chalaces) is to protect the combo. leyline of the void really protects your bridges, and it also turns off modular, yawg will, it hurts oath soooooooooooooooooo badd. lol. it just kills them because their gaeas blessing dosent trigger, and if their angels are deep, they have no deck so you just have to cabal therapy them to death. chalace is in the deck because moxes lotus crypt(both of them) ee are in other decks. again, these cards are just for protection.
normally you would win game one. you have a 70% chance of winning game one no matter what. so try not to **** that up. the hard part is sideboarding. i usually lose chalaces on the draw, and after that any combonation of leylines arbors thugs powders or wraiths.
what do you guys think of sundering titan? i like it. im thinking about cutting a return or a zealot for it.
i play ichorid. its kinda my thing. in this post i would like to first present my decklist for discussion, and second, discuss my choices for those cards and their value in the format post restrictions.
ok, now, there are some cards in ichorid that just go in ichorid. they have to, im not going to tell you about why these are good or why they are in the deck.
these cards are
bridge
ichorid
bazaar
troll thug and imp
dread return
and the rest of the combo pieces
the reason for the disruption,(leylines and chalaces) is to protect the combo. leyline of the void really protects your bridges, and it also turns off modular, yawg will, it hurts oath soooooooooooooooooo badd. lol. it just kills them because their gaeas blessing dosent trigger, and if their angels are deep, they have no deck so you just have to cabal therapy them to death. chalace is in the deck because moxes lotus crypt(both of them) ee are in other decks. again, these cards are just for protection.
normally you would win game one. you have a 70% chance of winning game one no matter what. so try not to **** that up. the hard part is sideboarding. i usually lose chalaces on the draw, and after that any combonation of leylines arbors thugs powders or wraiths.
what do you guys think of sundering titan? i like it. im thinking about cutting a return or a zealot for it.
so what do you guys think?
drop 1 cephalid sage you dont need 2. 1 is enough trust me.
i usuly win turn 3 at least, i never have to worry about my opponent dropping a plat, hoever you make a good point.
Not crap.
4 dryad arbor
2 cephalid sage
2 flame-kin zealot
4 golgari grave-troll
4 golgari thug
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 stinkweed imp
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 chalice of the void
4 dread return
4 leyline of the void
4 serum powder
4 unmask
4 contagion
3 emerald charm
4 reverent silence
2 taiga
but im still having some hard time playing with it. can anyone please explain to me in steps how to execute this deck properly? i get confused with when i get to dredge and ll the tricks. and when do i unmask myself for a dredge next turn? im soo confused!
but hell i love this deck! haha!
-Cephalid Sage
-Unmask
+Sundering Titan
+Angel of Despair
That way, you simply have more silver bullet tech. It's worked great for me. Angel of Despair can take out important permanents, so it's almost an auto-include. Plus, it's a big flier
Sundering Titan is there to wreck manabases. If they're running something like Tyrant Oath, you can take out a lot of lands- Trops, Seas, Volcanics, just plain islands- the combinations are ruinous to their strategy. Plus, when +1/+1 and hasted, it can win games. Worth the small loss in consistency over losing a Sage.
And let the SB be more consistent with the deck, I.E. B/G as opposed to trying to splash R/G in there:
3 Contagion
4 Oxidize
2 Sickening Shoal
4 Reverent Silence
2 Bayou
Contagion and Sickening Shoal are great versus problematic creatures like Yixlid Jailer or Tidespout Tyrant (A lot of your black cards are 4CC, and Angel of Despair can also be pitched for a huge -X/-X). Reverent Silences and Oxidizes are obvious here. I prefer Oxidize to ancient grudge, mosly because you don't need to splash red for it.
So Glurman can you post a "step by step" execution of this deck? I really get confused when to dredge and when i cant. This is my first time palying with dredge so i get a bit confused...
Many thanks!!!
@GTX: I think that an even 60 is nice, but I've seen 61 card decks win tourneys too. If you want to pilot the deck, PM me and you can test against me on MWS.
mws is a great way to test decks before you buy e'm, however i prefer mtgo
And this is clearly NOT the place for that. It's not strategy. Go to the sales lot if you want one.
Definitely put the fourth in there. However, Chalice for 0 is still a very powerful play, so I would recommend cutting something else. Do you have a list?
Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Serum Powder
3 Urza's Bauble
Creatures
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
Sideboard:
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Emerald Charm
4 Reverent Silence
1 Windswept Heath
4 Dryad Arbor
Maindeck your leylines. Maindeck your Dryad Arbors. Take out the baubles, they suck. Add the fourth dread return. Your sideboard is better with something like this (This is my current sideboard):
2x Sickening Shoal
4x Oxidize
2x Bayou
4x Reverent Silence
Remove the shambling shells (dredge 3 is way too weak) and street wraiths (they don't do any good, to be honest. I played with them, and felt that they just always sucked. Sure, additional opportunities to dredge are great, but you can usually draw 3 cards a turn, via your draw and bazaar)
I would also run the silver bullets like Angel of Despair and Sundering Titan. You also could use more disruption. Might I suggest 3x Unmask?
If you do that, the deck will become more consistent, more powerful, and win more often
Unless they use more hate than just Pithing Needle, of course... Which they do. It's a combined assault, with graveyard hate as WELL as needles. Thus, ancient grudge gets shut down. I used to run them, but Oxidizes do the same job, for the same cost, without needing to be in the hated-out yard. If your meta doesn't run leylines (Which means your meta is kind of strange), then by all means go for grudges. I'd rather be able to play it from my hand with a Dryad or Bayou on turn one or two. Grudge doesn't come online until FAR later. That's the biggest point. How the hell do you get grudge into your yard if they needle bazaar on turn one? You have to wait until your discard step, and have 8 cards in hand (with all the mulliganing you do, good luck winning). Speed is CRUCIAL in vintage. I moved to the Oxidize route.
Leylines aren't anti-hate in the maindeck. They're good in game one, because they protect your Bridges. The deck still runs fast and brutal.
You sideboard in all your hate game 2, and win. There is no 50:50 there. You can board out leylines if they don't have any creatures (storm), chalices if they don't run any 0 or 1-cc spells, and your silver bullets or disruption if they are playing aggro. Works almost every time. (note that I typically do not board in contagions or shoals unless I can tell what deck they're playing. I board them in against stuff like UGb thresh, which packs jailers in the board)
It'll draw you two cards, which could be, potentially, a bayou/arbor and a reverent silence
I am going to leave this post up as an example of how NOT to write on these forums any more. This post is guilty of both poor grammar (essentially IM writing), and of a lack of content which will no longer be tolerated on these forums. This is a warning for everyone; please ensure that your posts support any claims you make either with logical arguments or valid statistical data. Data of this sort should be limited to playtesting sessions in which you play the same match multiple times, both pre and post board, and/or tournament results. MWS testing is NOT valid for the sake of supporting your argument if your partner is just a random individual on one of the servers which you only play one match with. As for logical arguments, try to support your ideas with well thought out reasoning, and avoid the use of any demagoguery, as this detracts from educated discussion. Please excuse this digression from the topic at hand, but I felt it necessary to make an example.
Thank you,
Glix
It's fast- but the new versions are fast too, and they don't have useless chaff in the maindeck.
With 7 baubles and dryad arbors and leylines in the sb? This isn't a good build of ichorid. Arbors and leylines need to be main deck.
firstly my decklist.
dredgers
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
free creaures
4 dryad arbor
4 ichorid
4 narcomoebia
draw stuff
4 bazaar of baghdad
4 street wraith
4 serum powder
spells
4 dread return
4 cabal therapy
4 bridge from below
dread return targets
2 cephalid sage
2 flamekin zelot
1 angel of despair
disruption
4 leyline of the void
4 chalace of the void
sideboard
1 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
2 bayou
3 oxodise
4 reverent silence
4 contagion
ok, now, there are some cards in ichorid that just go in ichorid. they have to, im not going to tell you about why these are good or why they are in the deck.
these cards are
bridge
ichorid
bazaar
troll thug and imp
dread return
and the rest of the combo pieces
the reason for the disruption,(leylines and chalaces) is to protect the combo. leyline of the void really protects your bridges, and it also turns off modular, yawg will, it hurts oath soooooooooooooooooo badd. lol. it just kills them because their gaeas blessing dosent trigger, and if their angels are deep, they have no deck so you just have to cabal therapy them to death. chalace is in the deck because moxes lotus crypt(both of them) ee are in other decks. again, these cards are just for protection.
normally you would win game one. you have a 70% chance of winning game one no matter what. so try not to **** that up. the hard part is sideboarding. i usually lose chalaces on the draw, and after that any combonation of leylines arbors thugs powders or wraiths.
what do you guys think of sundering titan? i like it. im thinking about cutting a return or a zealot for it.
so what do you guys think?
drop 1 cephalid sage you dont need 2. 1 is enough trust me.