Can i get an opinion on Sun Titan dredge + flamekin zealout vs Flayer of the hatebound?
My friend says that the 2011 vintage world champ Sun titan dredge deck isn't being used at all anymore in favor of using Flayer of the Hatebound. Is this true? what is the general consensus?
personally, fkz and sun titan. running the flayer of the hatebound to avoid attacking doesn't have a point in vintage. decks don't run moat and stuff like that. I can't think of a time that flayer would have been relevant at all.
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I think that Flayer a reasonable substitution for Flame-Kin, but maybe it suffers from the dangers of "too much cooolness" factor. Or the "lure of new things" factor. Avoiding the attack step is reasonable, but I think I would only go this route if you thought your meta might contain some bizarre things like Moat or Propaganda.
Also, I would definitely say that leyline of sanctity is more prevalent in vintage than moat or propaganda effect since leyline "stops" discard, storm, oath
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If you are playing sun titan, you should run FLZ and fires of Yavinmaya. Played in worlds this year and fires was the surprise that caught everyone off guard. Flayer is probably just a different build all together, but Sun titan offers much more versatility.
I don't wuite understnad the benefit to running Fires in place of FKZ. They both functionally do the same thing in giving haste to your army, but FKZ give +1/+1 and can be returned without sun titan to win. I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some other trick besides giving +2/+2 to a single creature to something (since assuming you have at least 1 other creature, zealot does better than +2/+2)
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I don't wuite understnad the benefit to running Fires in place of FKZ. They both functionally do the same thing in giving haste to your army, but FKZ give +1/+1 and can be returned without sun titan to win. I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some other trick besides giving +2/+2 to a single creature to something (since assuming you have at least 1 other creature, zealot does better than +2/+2)
I think it's that Sun Titan can return the fires to play upon attacking via ability (Can't be easily countered; hardly any stifles in vintage) where as casting the FKZ with Dread Return may result in a counter - which could lose you a turn and possibly the game.
Other than that I can't see much other benefits to it.. you still can't feasibly cast it, the sacrifice ability seems useless, and it has a one-card dependency.
Then again I could also be completely off track... this is just my analysis...
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But couldn't the dread return for the sun titan that brings back fires for the win also be countered?
This is my thought as well. I guess the best reason I can think of for Fires over FKZ is the fact you can use it to win with one less Dread Return should you not have lethal the first time?
I'd rather run Flame-Kin.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
The reason you would use it is because of the versatility the package has.
There will be times when dredge out a FKZ and do not have lethal on the table, in which case FKZ may be the wrong creature to grab. Since you are also running the titans to get you there you have 2 paths to go down. It also helps diversify your threats, on the chance that you get surgicaled or extirpated.
I also had games where i did hard cast the Fires for the win, there were also times where the +2/+2 won me the game where the fkz did not because it would not have made it through.
My friend says that the 2011 vintage world champ Sun titan dredge deck isn't being used at all anymore in favor of using Flayer of the Hatebound. Is this true? what is the general consensus?
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I think it's that Sun Titan can return the fires to play upon attacking via ability (Can't be easily countered; hardly any stifles in vintage) where as casting the FKZ with Dread Return may result in a counter - which could lose you a turn and possibly the game.
Other than that I can't see much other benefits to it.. you still can't feasibly cast it, the sacrifice ability seems useless, and it has a one-card dependency.
Then again I could also be completely off track... this is just my analysis...
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This is my thought as well. I guess the best reason I can think of for Fires over FKZ is the fact you can use it to win with one less Dread Return should you not have lethal the first time?
I'd rather run Flame-Kin.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
There will be times when dredge out a FKZ and do not have lethal on the table, in which case FKZ may be the wrong creature to grab. Since you are also running the titans to get you there you have 2 paths to go down. It also helps diversify your threats, on the chance that you get surgicaled or extirpated.
I also had games where i did hard cast the Fires for the win, there were also times where the +2/+2 won me the game where the fkz did not because it would not have made it through.
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