I'm having a really specific problem in my meta---workshops are EVERYWHERE.
I'm new to vintage and decided to play dredge. I chose a deck list (Fatestitcher dredge) that I thought would do well in general and built my sideboard to face the normal array of graveyard hate. I knew going into the tournament that I would have an uphill game 2/3 that would be worse against shops decks. I knew all of that not just from prowling forums, but from play testing my deck against five different decks that I thought would make an appearance at the tournament, one of which was shops. I assumed that there would only be about 10-20% of the players at the tournament playing shops though, and that I might be able to sneak out a win if I had a good draw in spite of it being my hardest match.
When tournament night rolled around though, my first pairing was against a shops deck...so was my second, third, and fourth. Every match I played was against shops. Nearly all of them had wasteland to back up their graveyard hate, two of them main decked gaffdiggers cage, and all of them managed to resolve at least one sphere effect in game 2 and 3. I barely managed to go 2-2 for the night, with my last match being my worst as I faced down four gaffdiggers cages on the field backed by a sphere of resistance and a wasteland to my mana. Unable to hard cast my creatures, evoke my ingot chewer, or remove the hate in any way all I could do was pass the turn until my opponent beat me to death with his revoker.
I've gone back to testing a version of dredge similar to cagebreaker, but now I'm losing to faster decks, and my match up against shops is still pretty weak. My game 2/3 is stronger against decks bringing in hate, but it's still brutally hard to cast anything against shops.
Internet, you're my only hope. What can I do to stand a fighting chance against a workshops filled meta? Is there some sideboard option other than natures claim and ingot chewer that I'm missing? Is there a way to play dredge that I'm unaware of that would help me in my matches against shops?
Thank you to anyone reading this, and I look forward to any advice you might have.
TL: DR-How do I build dredge for a workshops heavy meta?
Having played on both sides of that matchup (with my limited vintage experience :D), I will have to say that #1, fatestitcher dredge is not as good as the other slower DR-less version vs Shops, i.e. the winner of BoM Vintage. Secondly, I played against the BoM Dredge version recently and I think the key is to mull to a lot of hate, and don't hesitate to actually draw instead of dredge so that you can hit your mana sources and be able to cast your hate. Shops are pretty weak to early chewers so that's your out. At the end of the day though, no matter what version of dredge you are piloting you will likely face an uphill battle vs shops so that's just the trade-off, no deck is favored against the entire field
Dredge is actually a good matchup vs workshop. You should be winning at least 50-60% of your matches vs workshop. Like Dresden said, fatestitcher build isn't the best build, especially in a workshop-heavy meta. Dread Return is neat, but it's vulnerable to nearly everything.. If you find you're losing G1 versus workshop often, you probably have to fix up your deck a bit.
Can you post your decklist? Perhaps we can help on the specifics..
Basically the trick to beating workshop is to not try to play a version that really wants to combo ASAP and is more comfortable if it needs to just sit and durdle for a bit.
Fatestichers is awesome for the speed, and its lets storm and control matches go nicer, Its overly dependent on keeping a workshop in play. Those lists also rely on bloodghasts which require you to actually casts spells to sac them which as you probably found is a problem. Play more Ichorids, Play petrified feilds, don't try to go all in.
This is a list I have sitting around (Haven't gotten much testing in recently since nobody nearby seems to want to play vintage :/ ) meant to take on workshops.
It still goldfishes turn 3 consistently, but its more built to play without casting spells.
Griselbrand I think is one of the best targets for dread return off against stacks. aside from duplicant, they have nothing that beats it. It takes the place of sphinx of the lost truth and the steel wind in one swoop, racing aggro decks and dredging the rest of your deck. Once you get it out, you probably win. worst case scenario, they duplicant it, you pay 7 puke out narcomoebas and then either by blocking or animating Ichorids you have an army of zombies. best case, you can win just by swinging with your 7/7 flying lifelink.
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Depends if your trying to beat the match up with what you have or if you want to change up your list drastically.
As has been mentioned, the slower dredge is probably better in the long run against shops as stitcher and dread return is vulnerable. Things that have helped me a lot:
4 Ichorids and enough black creatures - Ichorid really hits shops and is not too shabby in most other matchups. You need 4. You also need to yard them early. You may want to consider street wraith in the deck. He lets you dredge turn 1 to get them in the yard and then is food for them and can be used under spheres and cant be countered.
Cage breaker pieces - Mental misstep is strong to fight an early cage. Post board they will try to land one first thing, and since you have bazaars you can try to draw into them when you need to. Chewer is also obviously very important in the matchup.
Unmask - May be worth playing. It can totally wreck people, and it is unaffect by cage. Even if they land something early it could give you enough time to get an answer.
Main deck hate - You say people run main board cages. Are you running main board answers? I have seen tons of dredge lists go all in first round with no answers in the list, which I think is a mistake. Even a singleton answer in the list can give you game where otherwise you would have nothing. Ingot chewer is usually never dead and can made tokens for you. I kinda like natures claim because of instant speed. You can play a land, get landfall triggers on the stack, destroy a cage with the triggers on the stack and still get your ghasts.
Leyline of the void - Are these Expresso Stax, wielder, etc? Leyline is pretty useful against some of the lists but not so much the others. ichorids do like being teamed up with leyline so when you do zap their golems you don't lose bridges.
Thanks everyone for your help so far. This is the list I've revised to since making my original post. I think everyone who said that playing fatesticher was too all in for the meta was very correct.
@Lordzosh "You should be winning at least 50-60%" I did actually win 50%, but I felt like those wins were due to luck (for example, 3 bazaars in my opening 7 cards) more than a viable deck list. I don't expect the battle against shops to be anything but uphill, but my losses felt pulverizing and the wins felt less like winning and more like sneaking by.
@protoaddict: In regards to what kind of shops I faced I faced: Forgemaster shops, Welder, and 2 very similar versions of MUD one with and one without main board smokestacks, though I never saw a smokestack in any of my matches.
@Numotflame96 I like your list. I'd never considered the addition of street wraith in vintage, but it would speed up a deck that is looking to bypass the normal shops sphere issues. I'll consider your list at length before I head to another tournament.
I'm open to all suggestions and any additional insight that you might have. I've only just started playing vintage (and by extension vintage dredge) and I do appreciate the insight.
Petrified Field doesn't belong in your SB, it's a MD card and helps bring back landfall for Bloodghast, and more importantly your bazaars.
Ingot Chewer > Chain of Vapor for MD.. especially in a workshop heavy meta.
Dread returns are meh... you can run them if you really want.. but I find I'm having more success without running them. If you do run Dread Return, I'd consider Griselbrand before Sun Titan.
After talking to some people who play in my area I was given the suggestion "Why don't you just cast your guys game 2", which doesn't really seem reasonable to me, particularly in my shops heavy match ups. All of this and some internet prowling have lead me to another similar question to my first, having now tested a few different deck lists focused specifically on fighting dredge hate.:
What about a morph side board to Dark Times for game two? I've read a little about it, and am looking at something like this:
The dread return package could be removed in favor of something that would better support the transformation package such as Nether ShadowThoughtseize or additional mana sources. The strategy has the potential to water down a deck that is boarding in graveyard hate to fight the dredge strategy.
My concerns are:
-What could be changed in the main board to ensure a solid game two after transformation without watering down game 1?
-Is the sideboard solid for game 2?
-Is mental misstep the right card to have in the main board when considering changing to dark times--particularly running on the assumption that game two will be on the draw if dredge brings us through a win game one?
-I know this won't improve the dredge game against shops per say, but would watering down their game two plans be enough to steal a game 2 here and there when they mulligan to yard hate? My worst loss was against 4 cage effects the last time I played, because of his turn one and two cages he managed to get some odd six turns where I puttered---would the transform board sputter as often as the traditional side board of fighting yard hate?
This is the forum where I got the best input for my last question and I'm hoping to get similar input again before I go back for another tournament. Thanks so much for your help:)
After play testing the list that I posted earlier today in several game 2's against shops and snap caster control I found that the morph board idea didn't work any better than just playing dredge with an anti-hate sideboard.
Unless someone has a great idea about how to make it function, I want to apologize for wasting anyone's time for reading the post---particularly to myself for writing it. It doesn't seem like the idea could pan out with any consistency.
Posts merged. In future, please used the edit button rather than double posting - BlackVise
I'm new to vintage and decided to play dredge. I chose a deck list (Fatestitcher dredge) that I thought would do well in general and built my sideboard to face the normal array of graveyard hate. I knew going into the tournament that I would have an uphill game 2/3 that would be worse against shops decks. I knew all of that not just from prowling forums, but from play testing my deck against five different decks that I thought would make an appearance at the tournament, one of which was shops. I assumed that there would only be about 10-20% of the players at the tournament playing shops though, and that I might be able to sneak out a win if I had a good draw in spite of it being my hardest match.
When tournament night rolled around though, my first pairing was against a shops deck...so was my second, third, and fourth. Every match I played was against shops. Nearly all of them had wasteland to back up their graveyard hate, two of them main decked gaffdiggers cage, and all of them managed to resolve at least one sphere effect in game 2 and 3. I barely managed to go 2-2 for the night, with my last match being my worst as I faced down four gaffdiggers cages on the field backed by a sphere of resistance and a wasteland to my mana. Unable to hard cast my creatures, evoke my ingot chewer, or remove the hate in any way all I could do was pass the turn until my opponent beat me to death with his revoker.
I've gone back to testing a version of dredge similar to cagebreaker, but now I'm losing to faster decks, and my match up against shops is still pretty weak. My game 2/3 is stronger against decks bringing in hate, but it's still brutally hard to cast anything against shops.
Internet, you're my only hope. What can I do to stand a fighting chance against a workshops filled meta? Is there some sideboard option other than natures claim and ingot chewer that I'm missing? Is there a way to play dredge that I'm unaware of that would help me in my matches against shops?
Thank you to anyone reading this, and I look forward to any advice you might have.
TL: DR-How do I build dredge for a workshops heavy meta?
Can you post your decklist? Perhaps we can help on the specifics..
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Fatestichers is awesome for the speed, and its lets storm and control matches go nicer, Its overly dependent on keeping a workshop in play. Those lists also rely on bloodghasts which require you to actually casts spells to sac them which as you probably found is a problem. Play more Ichorids, Play petrified feilds, don't try to go all in.
This is a list I have sitting around (Haven't gotten much testing in recently since nobody nearby seems to want to play vintage :/ ) meant to take on workshops.
1 dakmor salvage
4 undiscovered paradice
2 city of brass
2 petrified field
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
3 golgari thug
4 street wraith
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
2 Bloodghast
2 ingot chewer
1 FKZ
1 Griselbrand
4 cabal therapy
4 serum powder
4 bridge from below
4 chalice of the void
It still goldfishes turn 3 consistently, but its more built to play without casting spells.
Griselbrand I think is one of the best targets for dread return off against stacks. aside from duplicant, they have nothing that beats it. It takes the place of sphinx of the lost truth and the steel wind in one swoop, racing aggro decks and dredging the rest of your deck. Once you get it out, you probably win. worst case scenario, they duplicant it, you pay 7 puke out narcomoebas and then either by blocking or animating Ichorids you have an army of zombies. best case, you can win just by swinging with your 7/7 flying lifelink.
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As has been mentioned, the slower dredge is probably better in the long run against shops as stitcher and dread return is vulnerable. Things that have helped me a lot:
4 Ichorids and enough black creatures - Ichorid really hits shops and is not too shabby in most other matchups. You need 4. You also need to yard them early. You may want to consider street wraith in the deck. He lets you dredge turn 1 to get them in the yard and then is food for them and can be used under spheres and cant be countered.
Cage breaker pieces - Mental misstep is strong to fight an early cage. Post board they will try to land one first thing, and since you have bazaars you can try to draw into them when you need to. Chewer is also obviously very important in the matchup.
Unmask - May be worth playing. It can totally wreck people, and it is unaffect by cage. Even if they land something early it could give you enough time to get an answer.
Main deck hate - You say people run main board cages. Are you running main board answers? I have seen tons of dredge lists go all in first round with no answers in the list, which I think is a mistake. Even a singleton answer in the list can give you game where otherwise you would have nothing. Ingot chewer is usually never dead and can made tokens for you. I kinda like natures claim because of instant speed. You can play a land, get landfall triggers on the stack, destroy a cage with the triggers on the stack and still get your ghasts.
Leyline of the void - Are these Expresso Stax, wielder, etc? Leyline is pretty useful against some of the lists but not so much the others. ichorids do like being teamed up with leyline so when you do zap their golems you don't lose bridges.
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1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
Spells
4 cabal Therapy
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Mental Misstep
4 Nature's Claim
3 Petrified Field
@Lordzosh "You should be winning at least 50-60%" I did actually win 50%, but I felt like those wins were due to luck (for example, 3 bazaars in my opening 7 cards) more than a viable deck list. I don't expect the battle against shops to be anything but uphill, but my losses felt pulverizing and the wins felt less like winning and more like sneaking by.
@protoaddict: In regards to what kind of shops I faced I faced: Forgemaster shops, Welder, and 2 very similar versions of MUD one with and one without main board smokestacks, though I never saw a smokestack in any of my matches.
@Numotflame96 I like your list. I'd never considered the addition of street wraith in vintage, but it would speed up a deck that is looking to bypass the normal shops sphere issues. I'll consider your list at length before I head to another tournament.
I'm open to all suggestions and any additional insight that you might have. I've only just started playing vintage (and by extension vintage dredge) and I do appreciate the insight.
+4 Ingot Chewer, +3 Petrified Field, +1 Golgari Thug
For your SB I'd go something like
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
3 Wispmare / Mental Misstep
Petrified Field doesn't belong in your SB, it's a MD card and helps bring back landfall for Bloodghast, and more importantly your bazaars.
Ingot Chewer > Chain of Vapor for MD.. especially in a workshop heavy meta.
Dread returns are meh... you can run them if you really want.. but I find I'm having more success without running them. If you do run Dread Return, I'd consider Griselbrand before Sun Titan.
Sig by Sioux Heroes of the Plane Studios
What about a morph side board to Dark Times for game two? I've read a little about it, and am looking at something like this:
4 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast Buy
2 Dread Return
4 Mental Misstep
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The dread return package could be removed in favor of something that would better support the transformation package such as Nether Shadow Thoughtseize or additional mana sources. The strategy has the potential to water down a deck that is boarding in graveyard hate to fight the dredge strategy.
My concerns are:
-What could be changed in the main board to ensure a solid game two after transformation without watering down game 1?
-Is the sideboard solid for game 2?
-Is mental misstep the right card to have in the main board when considering changing to dark times--particularly running on the assumption that game two will be on the draw if dredge brings us through a win game one?
-I know this won't improve the dredge game against shops per say, but would watering down their game two plans be enough to steal a game 2 here and there when they mulligan to yard hate? My worst loss was against 4 cage effects the last time I played, because of his turn one and two cages he managed to get some odd six turns where I puttered---would the transform board sputter as often as the traditional side board of fighting yard hate?
This is the forum where I got the best input for my last question and I'm hoping to get similar input again before I go back for another tournament. Thanks so much for your help:)
After play testing the list that I posted earlier today in several game 2's against shops and snap caster control I found that the morph board idea didn't work any better than just playing dredge with an anti-hate sideboard.
Unless someone has a great idea about how to make it function, I want to apologize for wasting anyone's time for reading the post---particularly to myself for writing it. It doesn't seem like the idea could pan out with any consistency.
Posts merged. In future, please used the edit button rather than double posting - BlackVise