So I have been slowly looking in to Vintage and Dredge has a special place for me in Legacy, but when I saw it in Vintage, I found it to be so beautiful. Testing it online, I realized it was the deck I wanted to build. But I have come to realized that there are two, kinda three, primary builds, Titan Dredge, and DRless Dredge.
Runs Sun Titan to get back a Bazaar, trigger landfall for the Bloodghasts, dredge more, and repeat. It seems harder to side with, easy to disrupt, but more explosive.
Dredge used to be named Ichorid but as the archetype has moved away from using Ichorid, its falling back on it's mechanic name. Enough digression.
I love Dredge, and it's winning percentage in game 1 is unbelievable - my guess is somewhere in the 85%+ range. I think this is true for just about any build you have, because of the overall strength of the mechanics. So you need to look at games 2 & 3 as to how you build your deck. More sideboard options and inevitability is a what I aim my builds to achieve. Thus I advocate using the more flexible, slower and harder to disrupt build. As I mentioned, Ichorid are/were currently in decline, but I think they present a less graveyard dependent kill mechanism. It can be much slower, more inevitable, but at the same time harder to disrupt.
Personally I almost always play dread returns. the ability to race faster combo deck is almost always worth the slots. I've always felt sideboarding into slower builds is nice, but there's no reason to reduce the G1 percentages by slowing it down.
that being said, the DRless list posted seems to be expecting a lot of stax decks. generally running ichorids again's stax works well because you don't need to pay mana to make zombies. also note the main deck ingot chewer's and ancient grudges.
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Personally I almost always play dread returns. the ability to race faster combo deck is almost always worth the slots. I've always felt sideboarding into slower builds is nice, but there's no reason to reduce the G1 percentages by slowing it down.
that being said, the DRless list posted seems to be expecting a lot of stax decks. generally running ichorids again's stax works well because you don't need to pay mana to make zombies. also note the main deck ingot chewer's and ancient grudges.
The chewers aren't you get rid of a mox or something your opponent may have while netting you zombies? You don't even need to target anything to still get the zombies. I think that's one of my favorite parts about him, drop him and get 2 to 4 zombies is kinda nice.
Also, how fast are most of the combo decks?And whats the best way to fight them?
Quick question: in the Titan Dredge, why did you opt to not run a singleton of Fires of Yavimaya?
Not my list, it was the winning 2011 list and I was using it as a reference.
And chewer gets rid of hate and whatever... leaving behind a token at least.still seems like good main deck card to me... I have loved it testing... my friend test against plays MUD though so... I need to get into a local tournament and see from there. Cockatrice is never reliable so...
This is borderline necro-posting, but it's still on the first page (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)
I'm curious, do the non-DR versions just nickle and dime the opponent with 2/2 zombies over several turns? Or is there something I'm missing? I used to play Dredge, as Beralt mentions, back when it was called Ichorid. Relying on Unmasks and Cabal Therapy to hopefully clear the way for an alpha on turn 2 or so, courtesy of a Flame-kin Zealot and a bunch of zombies. Is this still the way Dredge wins?
I started playing Standard again (sweet Baby Oprah, save me!) when Innistrad dropped, but my playgroup is getting back into Vintage. I feel obligated to ruin their lives by dusting off Old Faithful haha. Thanks!
I'm curious, do the non-DR versions just nickle and dime the opponent with 2/2 zombies over several turns? Or is there something I'm missing? I used to play Dredge, as Beralt mentions, back when it was called Ichorid. Relying on Unmasks and Cabal Therapy to hopefully clear the way for an alpha on turn 2 or so, courtesy of a Flame-kin Zealot and a bunch of zombies. Is this still the way Dredge wins?
The non-DR deck was in response to the overwhelming number of shop decks that were seeing play. Storm was down, so we didn't need to race, and all our free abilities meant that there was no reason we had to worry about mana. Reoccurring our guys and getting zombies mean a pretty decent match up for us. The titan list from 2011, which now runs Griselbrand to dredge more and essentially win, has a much faster path to victory. It has its turn 2 wins a good chunk of the time. But as I mentioned before, its easier to disrupt and hate out from my own experience, while the non-DR list can withstand a little more hate but has a rough time with combo. What do you see yourself playing against?
First off necroing a thread in the vintage forum is probably happening at least 1/4 of the time, as posts from 2007 can still have relative value in terms of cards, decks, strategies and insight - so don't fret on that so much - I actually prefer the necro as you at least reference old discussion rather then having people jump back and forth between threads to understand.
I posted on this early but really the Black Mamba is hitting it on the nose. The Non-Dread Return versions are less disruptable, but certainly slower, remember that they also get Ichorid and Bloodghast for critters swinging in and are disrupting with Cabal Therapy. Sure it may take 3 turns to kill them, but when their own deck is diluted by 12 dredge sideboard hate cards, this may be fast enough.
I'm curious, do the non-DR versions just nickle and dime the opponent with 2/2 zombies over several turns? Or is there something I'm missing? I used to play Dredge, as Beralt mentions, back when it was called Ichorid. Relying on Unmasks and Cabal Therapy to hopefully clear the way for an alpha on turn 2 or so, courtesy of a Flame-kin Zealot and a bunch of zombies. Is this still the way Dredge wins?
The non-DR deck was in response to the overwhelming number of shop decks that were seeing play. Storm was down, so we didn't need to race, and all our free abilities meant that there was no reason we had to worry about mana. Reoccurring our guys and getting zombies mean a pretty decent match up for us. The titan list from 2011, which now runs Griselbrand to dredge more and essentially win, has a much faster path to victory. It has its turn 2 wins a good chunk of the time. But as I mentioned before, its easier to disrupt and hate out from my own experience, while the non-DR list can withstand a little more hate but has a rough time with combo. What do you see yourself playing against?
Thanks for the replies, all. Right now my meta is unknown: we don't know where we're going to find games, but we're in the Philly/Jersey area. When we used to play, there was Workshop, Gushbond, Tinker/Colossus and Oath (that I can remember). Probably other stuff. But that was years ago, and a lot of the places we played, at least in Jersey, have left this mortal coil. The Dredge list I put together was based off a 2008 Malaysian championship deck, I think. Tuned to his/her meta, certainly, but it was powerless, near-mana-less, and won with the usual Flame-kin Zealot DR target. It ran a bit of enchant/artifact hate main in the form of three or four Nature's Claim, along with two Chalice of the Void main as well. It was pretty fast, turn 2 wins often, but as mentioned not that tough to disrupt. The list as-was had a tough time with a Tinkered-in BSC, so I switched out the Nature's Claims for Chain of Vapor.
I like the "more mana" versions posted above (if only for Petrified Field) and will probably try to shoehorn in a DR package.
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Titan Dredge
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Sun Titan
2 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
2 Fatestitcher
Instant
1 Ancestral Recall
Sorcery
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
1 Lotus Petal
Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below
Land
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Darkblast
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
Runs Sun Titan to get back a Bazaar, trigger landfall for the Bloodghasts, dredge more, and repeat. It seems harder to side with, easy to disrupt, but more explosive.
DRless Dredge
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
Instant
2 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Cabal Therapy
Artifact
4 Serum Powder
Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Land
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Petrified Field
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 City of Brass
3 Wispmare
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
This is version I am running. I feel like its slower, but easier to side with, and a little tougher to disrupt.
Are they open pretty much open to preferences, or is one dedicated to a certain meta?
I love Dredge, and it's winning percentage in game 1 is unbelievable - my guess is somewhere in the 85%+ range. I think this is true for just about any build you have, because of the overall strength of the mechanics. So you need to look at games 2 & 3 as to how you build your deck. More sideboard options and inevitability is a what I aim my builds to achieve. Thus I advocate using the more flexible, slower and harder to disrupt build. As I mentioned, Ichorid are/were currently in decline, but I think they present a less graveyard dependent kill mechanism. It can be much slower, more inevitable, but at the same time harder to disrupt.
that being said, the DRless list posted seems to be expecting a lot of stax decks. generally running ichorids again's stax works well because you don't need to pay mana to make zombies. also note the main deck ingot chewer's and ancient grudges.
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The chewers aren't you get rid of a mox or something your opponent may have while netting you zombies? You don't even need to target anything to still get the zombies. I think that's one of my favorite parts about him, drop him and get 2 to 4 zombies is kinda nice.
Also, how fast are most of the combo decks?And whats the best way to fight them?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Not my list, it was the winning 2011 list and I was using it as a reference.
And chewer gets rid of hate and whatever... leaving behind a token at least.still seems like good main deck card to me... I have loved it testing... my friend test against plays MUD though so... I need to get into a local tournament and see from there. Cockatrice is never reliable so...
I'm curious, do the non-DR versions just nickle and dime the opponent with 2/2 zombies over several turns? Or is there something I'm missing? I used to play Dredge, as Beralt mentions, back when it was called Ichorid. Relying on Unmasks and Cabal Therapy to hopefully clear the way for an alpha on turn 2 or so, courtesy of a Flame-kin Zealot and a bunch of zombies. Is this still the way Dredge wins?
I started playing Standard again (sweet Baby Oprah, save me!) when Innistrad dropped, but my playgroup is getting back into Vintage. I feel obligated to ruin their lives by dusting off Old Faithful haha. Thanks!
The non-DR deck was in response to the overwhelming number of shop decks that were seeing play. Storm was down, so we didn't need to race, and all our free abilities meant that there was no reason we had to worry about mana. Reoccurring our guys and getting zombies mean a pretty decent match up for us. The titan list from 2011, which now runs Griselbrand to dredge more and essentially win, has a much faster path to victory. It has its turn 2 wins a good chunk of the time. But as I mentioned before, its easier to disrupt and hate out from my own experience, while the non-DR list can withstand a little more hate but has a rough time with combo. What do you see yourself playing against?
I posted on this early but really the Black Mamba is hitting it on the nose. The Non-Dread Return versions are less disruptable, but certainly slower, remember that they also get Ichorid and Bloodghast for critters swinging in and are disrupting with Cabal Therapy. Sure it may take 3 turns to kill them, but when their own deck is diluted by 12 dredge sideboard hate cards, this may be fast enough.
Thanks for the replies, all. Right now my meta is unknown: we don't know where we're going to find games, but we're in the Philly/Jersey area. When we used to play, there was Workshop, Gushbond, Tinker/Colossus and Oath (that I can remember). Probably other stuff. But that was years ago, and a lot of the places we played, at least in Jersey, have left this mortal coil. The Dredge list I put together was based off a 2008 Malaysian championship deck, I think. Tuned to his/her meta, certainly, but it was powerless, near-mana-less, and won with the usual Flame-kin Zealot DR target. It ran a bit of enchant/artifact hate main in the form of three or four Nature's Claim, along with two Chalice of the Void main as well. It was pretty fast, turn 2 wins often, but as mentioned not that tough to disrupt. The list as-was had a tough time with a Tinkered-in BSC, so I switched out the Nature's Claims for Chain of Vapor.
I like the "more mana" versions posted above (if only for Petrified Field) and will probably try to shoehorn in a DR package.