Hello all. Since the unrestriction of Fact of Fiction I have been mulling over some various settings in which it could be most effective as a 4 of in a deck. Most of us would agree that opening up to multiple facts would generally be less than desireable and could lead to more possible mulligan scenarios. This presents somewhat of a conundrum in that any deck seeking to utilize it fully as a draw engine would want to play 4. I set out to create a shell which could support 4x Fact. But before I get to the decklist lets weigh some pros and cons for fact or fiction:
Why play fact(4x):
1. It's an instant, and thusly can interact with countermagic dynamically, leading to more reactive play.
2. It sees as many if not more cards than any playable draw spell in the format, save draw 7's and cards like Mystic Remora or Dark Confidant.
3. It's synergy with graveyard recursion can penalize opponents for creating "uneven" piles and create insta-win scenarios.
4. It's interactivity with the opponent can lead to player error on their part (in seperating piles and percieved lines of play), an advantage which can be leveraged.
5. At worst its a value play aquiring you general resources(counter, mana, more draw), at best it's a Gifts Ungiven on steroids.
6. It increases your hand size(99% of the time anyway).
7. Increased threat/bomb density.
Why not play fact(4x):
1. Its expensive mana cost can soak up an entire turn, and if countered can lead to tremendous tempo gain in the opponents favor.
2. Multiples in the opener may be dead, and also lead to mulls.
2. Fact of Fictioning into more Fact or Fictions, by and large, is too slow to do anything with immediately.
3. It gives your opponent Information about the cards you are holding, and thusly insight into the possible lines of play to anticipate.
4. It gives your opponent the opportunity to manipulate piles in a way that can put you to a tough choice, or otherwise minimize the spell's effectiveness.
5. Player error on your part (choosing the wrong pile(doh!)).
6. Opposing Mana Drains.
7. Overall perhaps too slow for the current Meta.
My process for building a deck around 4x fact was simple, create maximum synergy with it's pros while putting it in a context which dampened it's cons most effectivley.
Here were my goals:
1. Surround fact by the most relevant instants possible.
2. Maximize the effectiveness of fact by including the most highly synergistic draw spells, which can lead most directly and efficiently towards winning the game.
3. Include the most relevant graveyard recursion spells which do not dillute the deck's functionallity.
4. Put it in a shell which can support it's tremendous mana requirements, one which welcomes a 2x fact opener, as well as facting into more facts (lol).
5. Place it in a deck where the lines of play are fairly simple, so that your opponent is not gaining much information off of revealed cards. Make up for the lack of "element of suprise" with "relentless redundancy".
6. Surround it by a counterpackage which can protect fact most efficiently while also most effectively slowing the opponent from advancing their gameplan.
I do not claim to have acheived all of my objectives, but Here is my attempt at addressing these goals:
Let me touch on some of the omissions which could be viewed as egregious, or otherwise curious card choices-
Mana Drain: No mana drains in a countershell this chunky seems idiotic, I know. Further inspection of the mana base reveals my reasoning. This list can crank out a early game Fact/Tezz/Gifts quite easily. The ability to defend a 1st/2nd turn fact with Spell Pierce allows you to play more aggressivley, as this IS an aggressive list. The idea of consistently conjuring up 2+U 1st or 2nd turn to defend a Fact or Gifts with drain seems far fetched. Imho Spell Pierce can put you a turn ahead.
Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor: There's really no arguing the effectivenss of these 2 cards (particularly Vampiric). But they are less relevant in this deck list, as they only have brainstorm and Ancestral as a way of retrieving the tutored spells, save the draw phase. I will certainly entertain any arguments for their inclusion, but they didn't make the cut for my list.
. Snapcaster Mage: Snapcaster Mage can recover some of the important cards left behind from Fact. But it cannot grab Key, Vault, Lotus, Tezzeret or Tolarian for example. In addition there are too many other good non situational cards to play.Honestly, I never really gave him a true consideration for a slot in the deck, but seems relevant enough to address here.
3x Mox Opal: Pretty simple, Mox Opal can provide mana of any color @ 0 cost and be activated first turn regularly. It's most relevant purpose is to increase the chances of being able to produce Multiple U first turn to maximize the opportunity to protect a 1st/2nd turn bomb with a spell pierce if need be. But can also facilitate 1st turn plays like a guarded Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll or Tinker for example. In my experience,3 of's are generally cards that you want to maximize the chances of pulling one, yet do not want to open up to multiples of at any frequency. I feel this card fits squarely into this category, and thusly is a 3 of.
12 Lands/ Sideboard: Possibly the trimmest tezz list I have seen anywhere in regards to land. This IS a vulnerability against stax, and Power Hate/Rod decks, I know. There is 3 Nature's Claim, 1 Mountain,, 1 extra Hurk's and 2 Chewers in the SB. 7 Slots devoted to Mana Denial Strategies. 4 Leylines and 2 Needles has 6 slots for dredge. 1 Blast and 3 Nature's Claim makes 4 slots for the Oath/ Control matchup, and the basic counterpackage is pretuned already for this matchup imo.
Please test this deck out and tell me what you think. This is just a template which I'm sure can be improved upon(or scrapped) with your help. Thanks!
Why aren't you running Mana Drain? The old fact lists used it as a way to lessen the effective cost of FoF and lessen the potential tempo cost of FoF, and it seems like it would still be strong and in line with the goals you layed out.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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If I was building it, I'd probably make the following changes. It seems odd to play 4 of the newly unrestricted 4CMC draw spell, when you're not playing a 1cmc restricted draw spell, and not playing a 1cmc draw spell that probably SHOULD be restricted in the near future.
-2 FoF
+1 Ponder
+1 Preordain
-4 Spell Pierce
+4 Mana Drain
Sideboard
-1 Ingot Chewer
+1 Ancient Grudge
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
Why aren't you running Mana Drain? The old fact lists used it as a way to lessen the effective cost of FoF and lessen the potential tempo cost of FoF, and it seems like it would still be strong and in line with the goals you layed out.
Agreed. While you may not have much trouble resolving FoF without Drain... if there were ever a Vintage deck that called for Drain, this would be it.
In my mind, drain is worse at actually defending 1 of your bombs in the early game than spell pierce. This in addition to the already bountiful mana supply was enough for me to omit it.Drain WAS on my origonal list, and I will give mana drain some further testing.
And I'd really like to see at least one more answer to a resolved Null Rod.
I can agree with that. Misdirection could easily be cut for your spell of choice.
Does this have to be a 4 FoF deck?
Yes and no. That was my origonal goal, to use 4x fact effectively. The idea is that with 4 tezz, 4 Facts and 1 Gifts, you have over 100% chance of opening up to at least 1 bomb and the counterpower to defend it. (4 force, 4 pierce, 1 Misdirection.)
If I was building it, I'd probably make the following changes. It seems odd to play 4 of the newly unrestricted 4CMC draw spell, when you're not playing a 1cmc restricted draw spell, and not playing a 1cmc draw spell that probably SHOULD be restricted in the near future.
-2 FoF
+1 Ponder
+1 Preordain
No offense, but ponder and preordain are of little relevance to this deck list, and I would like to hear a reasoning for their inclusion. I don't see why they are necessary, and doesn't really seem to synergize with anything in the deck. Please goldfish some hands and then tell me you are missing ponder and preordain.
No offense, but ponder and preordain are of little relevance to this deck list, and I would like to hear a reasoning for their inclusion. I don't see why they are necessary, and doesn't really seem to synergize with anything in the deck. Please goldfish some hands and then tell me you are missing ponder and preordain.
I'll try some hands, but in 2011, I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why preordain isn't good in a vintage tezz deck.
All you need is one blue source on turn 1 to preordain. It protects you from drawing blightsteel, and can help you find a tutor or a combo piece.
I get that it doesn't have the synergy with academy, yawg will, or regrowth that FoF has, but it's also one mana vs four.
Really, what preordain offers you is consistency to do what your other 59-56 cards do more consistently. The last deck I put in a decent amount of time with was bob/gush, and I really really appreciated preordain. As long as your deck has enough busted cards and outs, keeping a hand with preordain feels like keeping a hand with demonic tutor.
I feel much the same way about ponder, although I'm getting to the point where I'm much more happy resolving a preordain.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I'll try some hands, but in 2011, I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why preordain isn't good in a vintage tezz deck.
the validity of card choices for any given deck, to me, is based more on its level of interaction with the other cards therein. Not simply whether the card is good or not, in and of itself. I am not saying that ponder and preordain are bad cards. Heck I play ponder in my Jace/Vault deck.
The last deck I put in a decent amount of time with was bob/gush, and I really really appreciated preordain.
Yes and having played the deck, would you say that preordain plays a specific role, in that it interacts with gush allowing you to chain gush and create maxium movement/Burst draw/ use of mana floated pre gush? Also a way of filling in the gaps in a deck with maybe the lightest mana base we have seen out of a control shell in a hot minute?
If so, I don't see the same interactions here as you're not necessarily trying to chain fact (especially if you're now cutting x2 to play preordain and ponder instead), you're not floating free mana, and the mana base is anything but light.
If there is a key interaction I have overlooked, please do enlighten me.
When you take out Fact to put in cantrips, you are thinning out your threat density. which doesn't seem to be a good idea, to me, for a deck with this hyper aggressive mana base. I would much rather already be holding a bomb than have to go searching for 1.
As long as your deck has enough busted cards and outs, keeping a hand with preordain feels like keeping a hand with demonic tutor.
If I were running 14 lands, 5 moxen and a lotus, it might be a different story, and I would have more slots available for these types of cards.
In my mind, drain is worse at actually defending 1 of your bombs in the early game than spell pierce. This in addition to the already bountiful mana supply was enough for me to omit it.Drain WAS on my origonal list, and I will give mana drain some further testing.
What makes drain so perfect for this deck is not its potential defensive use protecting your bombs, but rather the offensive use of stopping dangerous plays by your opponent and then feeding that mana into FoF on your following turn. FoF is 3 colourless, and that makes it perfectly situated to take advantage of mana off of many of the vintage threat cards (like yawgwin, thirst, crucible, etc.). Stopping power plays while subsidizing your own powerful FoF plays is why you want it.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Lol the draw engine in turbo tezz is TEZZ itself. That was the point when I built it. I replaced the draw engine with actual threats. Read the post on the drain of the NYSE & BBGD report of turbo tezz.
EDIT: Ohh and drain regardless of FOF should be in. The fact that you don't have it with fact kinda blows my mind. Misdirection is useless. Gifts and regrowth are bad cards...not really I just don't like them.
Also mental misstep is purty good.
EDIT 2: 4 Monolith 3 opal 3 key is too much for all of those. You need more top.
EDIT 3: Aww man dude you need at least 3x island. Green shouldn't be in the deck at all, especially only for claim, which is kinda a stretch of mana. You're gonna get wrecked by wasteland.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
What makes drain so perfect for this deck is not its potential defensive use protecting your bombs, but rather the offensive use of stopping dangerous plays by your opponent and then feeding that mana into FoF on your following turn. FoF is 3 colourless, and that makes it perfectly situated to take advantage of mana off of many of the vintage threat cards (like yawgwin, thirst, crucible, etc.). Stopping power plays while subsidizing your own powerful FoF plays is why you want it.
that much is understood and I def agree. I will heed to the resounding feedback of the community and include drain, stead spell pierce. Thank you.
Lol the draw engine in turbo tezz is TEZZ itself. That was the point when I built it. I replaced the draw engine with actual threats. Read the post on the drain of the NYSE & BBGD report of turbo tezz.
Thanks I will check it out.
Ohh and drain regardless of FOF should be in. The fact that you don't have it with fact kinda blows my mind. Misdirection is useless. Gifts and regrowth are bad cards...not really I just don't like them.
yep like I said it was in my original list, and was the first item on my list of potentially egregious omissions. I give in dammit, drain is back on the list lol.
Also mental misstep is purty good.
EDIT 2: 4 Monolith 3 opal 3 key is too much for all of those. You need more top.
EDIT 3: Aww man dude you need at least 3x island. Green shouldn't be in the deck at all, especially only for claim, which is kinda a stretch of mana. You're gonna get wrecked by wasteland.
Thank you for your thoughts. could you suggest a better configuration in terms of these cards you have mentioned? or would that simply be the original Turbo tezz list you built?
In my mind, drain is worse at actually defending 1 of your bombs in the early game than spell pierce.
It is worse at defending your bombs. That's not what it's there for. It's for countering your opponent's bombs on those turns where you didn't get everything you need to win the game up front.
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Why play fact(4x):
1. It's an instant, and thusly can interact with countermagic dynamically, leading to more reactive play.
2. It sees as many if not more cards than any playable draw spell in the format, save draw 7's and cards like Mystic Remora or Dark Confidant.
3. It's synergy with graveyard recursion can penalize opponents for creating "uneven" piles and create insta-win scenarios.
4. It's interactivity with the opponent can lead to player error on their part (in seperating piles and percieved lines of play), an advantage which can be leveraged.
5. At worst its a value play aquiring you general resources(counter, mana, more draw), at best it's a Gifts Ungiven on steroids.
6. It increases your hand size(99% of the time anyway).
7. Increased threat/bomb density.
Why not play fact(4x):
1. Its expensive mana cost can soak up an entire turn, and if countered can lead to tremendous tempo gain in the opponents favor.
2. Multiples in the opener may be dead, and also lead to mulls.
2. Fact of Fictioning into more Fact or Fictions, by and large, is too slow to do anything with immediately.
3. It gives your opponent Information about the cards you are holding, and thusly insight into the possible lines of play to anticipate.
4. It gives your opponent the opportunity to manipulate piles in a way that can put you to a tough choice, or otherwise minimize the spell's effectiveness.
5. Player error on your part (choosing the wrong pile(doh!)).
6. Opposing Mana Drains.
7. Overall perhaps too slow for the current Meta.
My process for building a deck around 4x fact was simple, create maximum synergy with it's pros while putting it in a context which dampened it's cons most effectivley.
Here were my goals:
1. Surround fact by the most relevant instants possible.
2. Maximize the effectiveness of fact by including the most highly synergistic draw spells, which can lead most directly and efficiently towards winning the game.
3. Include the most relevant graveyard recursion spells which do not dillute the deck's functionallity.
4. Put it in a shell which can support it's tremendous mana requirements, one which welcomes a 2x fact opener, as well as facting into more facts (lol).
5. Place it in a deck where the lines of play are fairly simple, so that your opponent is not gaining much information off of revealed cards. Make up for the lack of "element of suprise" with "relentless redundancy".
6. Surround it by a counterpackage which can protect fact most efficiently while also most effectively slowing the opponent from advancing their gameplan.
I do not claim to have acheived all of my objectives, but Here is my attempt at addressing these goals:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
3 Mox Opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
Planeswalker:4
4 Tezzeret the Seeker
Creature:1
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Instant:17
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Land:12
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3x Nature's Claim
3x Ingot Chewer
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Mountain
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hurkyl's Recall
Let me touch on some of the omissions which could be viewed as egregious, or otherwise curious card choices-
Mana Drain: No mana drains in a countershell this chunky seems idiotic, I know. Further inspection of the mana base reveals my reasoning. This list can crank out a early game Fact/Tezz/Gifts quite easily. The ability to defend a 1st/2nd turn fact with Spell Pierce allows you to play more aggressivley, as this IS an aggressive list. The idea of consistently conjuring up 2+U 1st or 2nd turn to defend a Fact or Gifts with drain seems far fetched. Imho Spell Pierce can put you a turn ahead.
Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor: There's really no arguing the effectivenss of these 2 cards (particularly Vampiric). But they are less relevant in this deck list, as they only have brainstorm and Ancestral as a way of retrieving the tutored spells, save the draw phase. I will certainly entertain any arguments for their inclusion, but they didn't make the cut for my list.
.
Snapcaster Mage: Snapcaster Mage can recover some of the important cards left behind from Fact. But it cannot grab Key, Vault, Lotus, Tezzeret or Tolarian for example. In addition there are too many other good non situational cards to play.Honestly, I never really gave him a true consideration for a slot in the deck, but seems relevant enough to address here.
3x Mox Opal: Pretty simple, Mox Opal can provide mana of any color @ 0 cost and be activated first turn regularly. It's most relevant purpose is to increase the chances of being able to produce Multiple U first turn to maximize the opportunity to protect a 1st/2nd turn bomb with a spell pierce if need be. But can also facilitate 1st turn plays like a guarded Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll or Tinker for example. In my experience,3 of's are generally cards that you want to maximize the chances of pulling one, yet do not want to open up to multiples of at any frequency. I feel this card fits squarely into this category, and thusly is a 3 of.
12 Lands/ Sideboard: Possibly the trimmest tezz list I have seen anywhere in regards to land. This IS a vulnerability against stax, and Power Hate/Rod decks, I know. There is 3 Nature's Claim, 1 Mountain,, 1 extra Hurk's and 2 Chewers in the SB. 7 Slots devoted to Mana Denial Strategies. 4 Leylines and 2 Needles has 6 slots for dredge. 1 Blast and 3 Nature's Claim makes 4 slots for the Oath/ Control matchup, and the basic counterpackage is pretuned already for this matchup imo.
Please test this deck out and tell me what you think. This is just a template which I'm sure can be improved upon(or scrapped) with your help. Thanks!
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And I'd really like to see at least one more answer to a resolved Null Rod.
If I was building it, I'd probably make the following changes. It seems odd to play 4 of the newly unrestricted 4CMC draw spell, when you're not playing a 1cmc restricted draw spell, and not playing a 1cmc draw spell that probably SHOULD be restricted in the near future.
-2 FoF
+1 Ponder
+1 Preordain
-4 Spell Pierce
+4 Mana Drain
Sideboard
-1 Ingot Chewer
+1 Ancient Grudge
In my mind, drain is worse at actually defending 1 of your bombs in the early game than spell pierce. This in addition to the already bountiful mana supply was enough for me to omit it.Drain WAS on my origonal list, and I will give mana drain some further testing.
I can agree with that. Misdirection could easily be cut for your spell of choice.
Yes and no. That was my origonal goal, to use 4x fact effectively. The idea is that with 4 tezz, 4 Facts and 1 Gifts, you have over 100% chance of opening up to at least 1 bomb and the counterpower to defend it. (4 force, 4 pierce, 1 Misdirection.)
No offense, but ponder and preordain are of little relevance to this deck list, and I would like to hear a reasoning for their inclusion. I don't see why they are necessary, and doesn't really seem to synergize with anything in the deck. Please goldfish some hands and then tell me you are missing ponder and preordain.
Good suggestion thanks.
I'll try some hands, but in 2011, I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why preordain isn't good in a vintage tezz deck.
All you need is one blue source on turn 1 to preordain. It protects you from drawing blightsteel, and can help you find a tutor or a combo piece.
I get that it doesn't have the synergy with academy, yawg will, or regrowth that FoF has, but it's also one mana vs four.
Really, what preordain offers you is consistency to do what your other 59-56 cards do more consistently. The last deck I put in a decent amount of time with was bob/gush, and I really really appreciated preordain. As long as your deck has enough busted cards and outs, keeping a hand with preordain feels like keeping a hand with demonic tutor.
I feel much the same way about ponder, although I'm getting to the point where I'm much more happy resolving a preordain.
the validity of card choices for any given deck, to me, is based more on its level of interaction with the other cards therein. Not simply whether the card is good or not, in and of itself. I am not saying that ponder and preordain are bad cards. Heck I play ponder in my Jace/Vault deck.
Yes and having played the deck, would you say that preordain plays a specific role, in that it interacts with gush allowing you to chain gush and create maxium movement/Burst draw/ use of mana floated pre gush? Also a way of filling in the gaps in a deck with maybe the lightest mana base we have seen out of a control shell in a hot minute?
If so, I don't see the same interactions here as you're not necessarily trying to chain fact (especially if you're now cutting x2 to play preordain and ponder instead), you're not floating free mana, and the mana base is anything but light.
If there is a key interaction I have overlooked, please do enlighten me.
When you take out Fact to put in cantrips, you are thinning out your threat density. which doesn't seem to be a good idea, to me, for a deck with this hyper aggressive mana base. I would much rather already be holding a bomb than have to go searching for 1.
If I were running 14 lands, 5 moxen and a lotus, it might be a different story, and I would have more slots available for these types of cards.
Thanks for your responses.
What makes drain so perfect for this deck is not its potential defensive use protecting your bombs, but rather the offensive use of stopping dangerous plays by your opponent and then feeding that mana into FoF on your following turn. FoF is 3 colourless, and that makes it perfectly situated to take advantage of mana off of many of the vintage threat cards (like yawgwin, thirst, crucible, etc.). Stopping power plays while subsidizing your own powerful FoF plays is why you want it.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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EDIT: Ohh and drain regardless of FOF should be in. The fact that you don't have it with fact kinda blows my mind. Misdirection is useless. Gifts and regrowth are bad cards...not really I just don't like them.
Also mental misstep is purty good.
EDIT 2: 4 Monolith 3 opal 3 key is too much for all of those. You need more top.
EDIT 3: Aww man dude you need at least 3x island. Green shouldn't be in the deck at all, especially only for claim, which is kinda a stretch of mana. You're gonna get wrecked by wasteland.
that much is understood and I def agree. I will heed to the resounding feedback of the community and include drain, stead spell pierce. Thank you.
Thanks I will check it out.
yep like I said it was in my original list, and was the first item on my list of potentially egregious omissions. I give in dammit, drain is back on the list lol.
Thank you for your thoughts. could you suggest a better configuration in terms of these cards you have mentioned? or would that simply be the original Turbo tezz list you built?
It is worse at defending your bombs. That's not what it's there for. It's for countering your opponent's bombs on those turns where you didn't get everything you need to win the game up front.