Aight I'm trying to recreate and develop a land destruction deck I had 17 years ago. Thoughts on this and how it would need to be changed? It was undefeated back in the day. Force of will is the only thing that could mess with it now. I think I could deal with it though. I've made a few changes with some newer cards. I tried to keep it as close to the original as possible to have a framework to build on. Thoughts?
I'm afraid Vintage is simply not the same format it was 17 years ago. Decks are absurdly fast now compared to then, and can easily win the game dropping only one or two land.
I really don't feel like this strategy of destroying land while being unable to answer any resolved threat is a fundamentally sound strategy for the format.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
a black card advantage engine that may be possible in such a deck that also provides a recursive win condition with synergy alongside crucible/waste is skullclamp + bloodghast.
It has already been mentioned, but land destruction as a deck strategy is not going to be effective in Vintage anymore. At the very least it should be land and artifact destruction considering the presence of moxen and other artifact mana.
That being said, if your going to start out playing the format again with a familiar deck then I see nothing wrong with updating your deck. Dont expect to win a lot, but its ok if you just want to test the Vintage waters.
For starters, the advent of fetch lands in the form of Polluted Delta would be a huge advantage to finding the correct land you need (there are a total of 10 fetch lands printed from two different sets).
Sweet. Thanks to everyone for your replies. I like the duress suggestion. The reason I even thought of rebuilding this deck was because I feel land destruction is getting a bad rap. Obviously in an environment where a players deck is going off on turn one every time then there isn't much that can be done with this deck.
Sweet. Thanks to everyone for your replies. I like the duress suggestion. The reason I even thought of rebuilding this deck was because I feel land destruction is getting a bad rap. Obviously in an environment where a players deck is going off on turn one every time then there isn't much that can be done with this deck.
I've made a few changes.
Dont get the impression that decks can go off every time turn one. Sure decks and win on the first turn, but thats not a typical case in the format. However, if you have no way to stop a combo deck, it can easily win on turn 2-4 everytime.
Also, this is somethng I put together really quick. Take what you like from it, or play it as is.
Land destruction spells are essentially never used in Vintage. Use strip mine + crucible of worlds instead. This can't be countered. If you aren't running a Stax deck, then this strategy works best with standstill. For example, Joshua Potucek just won a tournament in bloomberg with this deck.
Dont get the impression that decks can go off every time turn one. Sure decks and win on the first turn, but thats not a typical case in the format. However, if you have no way to stop a combo deck, it can easily win on turn 2-4 everytime.
Also, this is somethng I put together really quick. Take what you like from it, or play it as is.
Wow. That's a nice build dude. You have placed a lot of cards in the deck that have great synergy. Granted your suggestions depart from the original build a bit but maybe this is what it needs. A fresh build with fresh ideas. My memories with the deck were players(even those with full power) were never allowed more than 2 mana and that was only up to turn three as a worst case scenario for the deck. Usually by turn one they might get a mox out but by turn two they were manaless. Force of will might slow this deck down by one turn which might be enough to get a combo off but I feel it is resilient enough like you posted. What do you think about snap casters inlace of jace?
I'll go with this build. Very nice and thanks.
Land destruction spells are essentially never used in Vintage. Use strip mine + crucible of worlds instead. This can't be countered. If you aren't running a Stax deck, then this strategy works best with standstill. For example, Joshua Potucek just won a tournament in bloomberg with this deck.
I think that you'd want to run four vindicate before four stone rain...
If you look at the dark depths decks, they do really trip people up with thoughtseize, duress, one strip mine, and four wastelands.
The goal of LD in vintage is usually more to keep someone from having an insane tech land like a workshop out against you. Just putting your opponent on one less land every turn isn't going to do much.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I think that you'd want to run four vindicate before four stone rain...
If you look at the dark depths decks, they do really trip people up with thoughtseize, duress, one strip mine, and four wastelands.
The goal of LD in vintage is usually more to keep someone from having an insane tech land like a workshop out against you. Just putting your opponent on one less land every turn isn't going to do much.
Help me with the philosophy behind this. Bazaar decks are ruined, workshop decks are ruined..literally the only thing that can function is a combo that relies on one mana, a ritual and power jewelry.... having said that a Force of Will is the only answer to that anyway. If they are without mana i dont see how a deck can just win.
Thanks.
Forgot about Rishadan Port, that might be something you could use. Personally I would play strip mine or wasteland over it, maybe even Ghost Quarter.
Ghost quarter seems to be a better long term card for LD, short term it would be a toss up. I agree wastelands seem to be a better idea.
Help me with the philosophy behind this. Bazaar decks are ruined, workshop decks are ruined..literally the only thing that can function is a combo that relies on one mana, a ritual and power jewelry.... having said that a Force of Will is the only answer to that anyway. If they are without mana i dont see how a deck can just win.
Thanks.
Bazaar decks like Ichorid can win without Bazaar. If you blow up their land, they can just wait till they have to discard a card EOT (@ 8 cards) and drop a dredger in the bin and go to work. And I think they can out wait you since your clock isnt that fast.
I think thats what everyone has been trying to get across to you. Vintage is a different format then it was and decks can win without really worrying about lands. However, if your set on playing the deck, play it. The game is for people to enjoy, and if playing this deck does that, then so be it.
Bazaar decks like Ichorid can win without Bazaar. If you blow up their land, they can just wait till they have to discard a card EOT (@ 8 cards) and drop a dredger in the bin and go to work. And I think they can out wait you since your clock isnt that fast.
I think thats what everyone has been trying to get across to you. Vintage is a different format then it was and decks can win without really worrying about lands. However, if your set on playing the deck, play it. The game is for people to enjoy, and if playing this deck does that, then so be it.
Thanks
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x4 sinkhole
X4 ice storm
X4 stone rain
X4icequake
Creatures:
X1 blightsteel colossus
Artifacts:
X4 black vise
X1 Black lotus
x1 Mox ruby
x1 Mox emerald
x1 Mox jet
x1 Mox sapphire
x1 Sol ring
Land:
X4 badlands
X4 bayou
X4 taiga
X4 gemstone mine
X1 strip mine
X2 wasteland
X1 city of brass
Disruption/draw/misc:
X3 dark ritual
X4 duress
x1 Ancestral Recall
x1 Brainstorm
x1 Ponder
X1 tinker
X1 demonic tutor
X1 vindicate
SB:
X1 Vindicate
X4 null rod
X2 grafdigger's cage
X3 red elemental blast
X2 Swords to plowshares
X3 crumble
Aight I'm trying to recreate and develop a land destruction deck I had 17 years ago. Thoughts on this and how it would need to be changed? It was undefeated back in the day. Force of will is the only thing that could mess with it now. I think I could deal with it though. I've made a few changes with some newer cards. I tried to keep it as close to the original as possible to have a framework to build on. Thoughts?
The deck format is messing with the cards.
I really don't feel like this strategy of destroying land while being unable to answer any resolved threat is a fundamentally sound strategy for the format.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
That being said, if your going to start out playing the format again with a familiar deck then I see nothing wrong with updating your deck. Dont expect to win a lot, but its ok if you just want to test the Vintage waters.
For starters, the advent of fetch lands in the form of Polluted Delta would be a huge advantage to finding the correct land you need (there are a total of 10 fetch lands printed from two different sets).
Since you are running blue, you should run a dual land that has blue in it (that way you can fetch it). With blue, you can add Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus. Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor are good, you might consider Mystical Tutor as well.
With the presence of nonbasic lands in so many decks (look at your mana base for proof). Wasteland is basically a Strip Mine.
Also theres a ton of other land disruption. You just have to search for it. Like Plow Under or Scorched Earth.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I've made a few changes.
Dont get the impression that decks can go off every time turn one. Sure decks and win on the first turn, but thats not a typical case in the format. However, if you have no way to stop a combo deck, it can easily win on turn 2-4 everytime.
Also, this is somethng I put together really quick. Take what you like from it, or play it as is.
4x Sinkhole
4x Ice Storm
4x Duress
3x Stone Rain
3x Icequake
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Tinker
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Vindicate
Creatures:
2x Trygon Predator
1x Blightsteel Colossus
Artifacts:
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ankh of Mishra
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
2x Underground Sea
2x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
Planeswalker:
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Ajani Vengeant
1x Vindicate
4x Null Rod
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Nature's Claim
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Propaganda
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1543
1 Black Lotus
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Misdirection
4 Standstill
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Time Walk
2 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Conclave
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Energy Flux
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Underground Sea
1 Yixlid Jailer
This deck has 4 wasteland, 1 strip mine, and 2 crucible of worlds. Engineered explosives can be used to wipe out enemy moxen or to stop other threats.
Wow. That's a nice build dude. You have placed a lot of cards in the deck that have great synergy. Granted your suggestions depart from the original build a bit but maybe this is what it needs. A fresh build with fresh ideas. My memories with the deck were players(even those with full power) were never allowed more than 2 mana and that was only up to turn three as a worst case scenario for the deck. Usually by turn one they might get a mox out but by turn two they were manaless. Force of will might slow this deck down by one turn which might be enough to get a combo off but I feel it is resilient enough like you posted. What do you think about snap casters inlace of jace?
I'll go with this build. Very nice and thanks.
thanks for the idea. I've got a painter deck as my main deck ATM. I'll look into this when I decide to break it down. Looks like a fun deck!
If you look at the dark depths decks, they do really trip people up with thoughtseize, duress, one strip mine, and four wastelands.
The goal of LD in vintage is usually more to keep someone from having an insane tech land like a workshop out against you. Just putting your opponent on one less land every turn isn't going to do much.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Help me with the philosophy behind this. Bazaar decks are ruined, workshop decks are ruined..literally the only thing that can function is a combo that relies on one mana, a ritual and power jewelry.... having said that a Force of Will is the only answer to that anyway. If they are without mana i dont see how a deck can just win.
Thanks.
Ghost quarter seems to be a better long term card for LD, short term it would be a toss up. I agree wastelands seem to be a better idea.
Bazaar decks like Ichorid can win without Bazaar. If you blow up their land, they can just wait till they have to discard a card EOT (@ 8 cards) and drop a dredger in the bin and go to work. And I think they can out wait you since your clock isnt that fast.
Workshop decks might lock you out of the game before you can cast a Sinkhole. If they go first or even second, they can go Mishra's Workshop into Trinisphere, or Ancient Tomb into Sphere of Resistance followed up by Mishra's Workshop into Lodestone Golem next turn, add in the prevalence of moxen and other artifact mana the deck packs, makes this even more likely.
I think thats what everyone has been trying to get across to you. Vintage is a different format then it was and decks can win without really worrying about lands. However, if your set on playing the deck, play it. The game is for people to enjoy, and if playing this deck does that, then so be it.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Thanks