they need to slow the **** down. focus on making products i want to buy longer term (better sets) and shy away from gimmicky short print run stuff that i feel like i HAVE to buy or i miss out.
there's just too much crap on the market competing for my dollars. i'd rather see a sustainable higher quality lower priced product than these relatively expensive avalanche style releases.
yeah yeah, you don't have to buy every product, and not every product is for every player. i skip the large majority of them, but its also caused me to lose interest in a lot of the draft and standard format stuff because of decreased quality. they're definitely exploiting the ***** out of the FOMO mentality and its nauseating. it also gets really frustrating to be bombarded with product releases worth it or otherwise, over a longer period it just erodes interest in the over all product. when you have to pick and choose because you're having so much thrown in your face, ultimately you just kind of... move on to something that you can enjoy at a less frenetic pace.
also betting that this is where the oubliette reprint happens, and people will be rightfully angry about it.
I thought the name of the Secret Lair release was going to be "Five Drops," with all of Magic's best 5-drops (Baneslayer Angel, Thundermaw Hellkite, etc.)
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Lol, wizards just discovered how to print money, didn't they?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Lol, wizards just discovered how to print money, didn't they?
They just milk the market.
If people keep buying overpriced crap they get more overpriced crap.
Anybody else just ignores it.
----
The absolute worst part of it is that it undermines all the stores.
The product a store gets tanks in value and it just keeps going.
All the stores get a massive "FU" and if anybody cares for their store and place to play, this kind of product has to be boycott, its bleeding out all the stores worldwide.
And if people dont think like that, they will wake up and wonder why there are no stores anymore.
I am already bored by these, mostly thanks to how fast they are coming out. WotC can keep hyping these up, but these are an easy pass for me. Honestly, there are way too many products coming out. Feels like we get two products a month now.
Lol, wizards just discovered how to print money, didn't they?
They just milk the market.
If people keep buying overpriced crap they get more overpriced crap.
Anybody else just ignores it.
----
The absolute worst part of it is that it undermines all the stores.
The product a store gets tanks in value and it just keeps going.
All the stores get a massive "FU" and if anybody cares for their store and place to play, this kind of product has to be boycott, its bleeding out all the stores worldwide.
And if people dont think like that, they will wake up and wonder why there are no stores anymore.
Stores can order secret lair and sell for a bigger profit than any of the regular products. nothing stops them from doing it.
Do wotc actually want potential buyers to fatigue of novelty products like secret lairs? I can not figure why they would, but it seems they work hard for it...
Are they really so desperate for short-term profits?
If by stars aligning they mean Nyx, and these are the original Theros gods with alternate art and possible constellation frames, then this will be the first secret lair to interest me.
That said, what is with WOTC lately? Product fatigue is indeed a major issue. Why can’t they just let players enjoy Theros? I remember when it felt like they really placed a great deal of care and emphasis on whatever set was newly released. This time it felt like they spent every opportunity to overshadow Theros with Ikoria and now secret lairs to keep pressing sales.
All the secret lairs thus far have been a bore for me but I’m equally dreading any interest in these. I may breathe a sigh of relief if it isn’t Theros gods just to avoid overpriced product after my very justified focus on THB.
Also the whole “investment” outlook on MtG deserves to be exploited and killed. It’s a game. And hoarding is a disease.
If you read between the lines, it's a secret message from Hasbro Board of Directors saying, "MAKE MORE MONEY!"
Can't blame them if the idiot base gobbles it up. They're just catering to demand and apparently people like this stuff. The line between a game and an investment is very very thin.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
To be fair, not every secret Lair is for everyone. If this ends up being the original gods it would be the first to appeal to me after all. So perhaps they are simply trying to make a product that appeals to everyone depending on each release team. I can’t fault them for making it but I do think that each drop does not have sufficient value in Each drop does feel a bit disingenuous with how many products they have that deserve their own focus frankly.
I resent and feel sad for WOTC to be under such executive pressure. We see the Hasbro impact everywhere lately, even the lore. All this restructuring and corporate influence compromising it
As someone who works a pretty successful store, these have done nothing to our bottom line so far. They haven't impacted our event attendance, singles sales, or anything else. It has been business as usual.
As someone who works a pretty successful store, these have done nothing to our bottom line so far. They haven't impacted our event attendance, singles sales, or anything else. It has been business as usual.
So in other words, "Move along. Nothing to see here!" right?
'buster
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():
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Honestly, this seems like an interesting gamble from a marketing perspective.
If I’m reading things right, all five drops will be available on the same day... which is also the day they’re revealed.
instead of giving previews and letting players process things and discuss to make informed decisions on which ones are worth it and which ones aren’t, they are trying to force impulse purchases.
While the lack of previews might cost this release some hype, announcing things at a championship will still push things into common consciousness (and the lack of hype might catch some players off-guard, leading to more impulse buys).
Personally, I think that using this approach is predatory and more than a little bit evil. With that said, I can still appreciate it from the business end of things.
Honestly, this seems like an interesting gamble from a marketing perspective.
If I’m reading things right, all five drops will be available on the same day... which is also the day they’re revealed.
instead of giving previews and letting players process things and discuss to make informed decisions on which ones are worth it and which ones aren’t, they are trying to force impulse purchases.
While the lack of previews might cost this release some hype, announcing things at a championship will still push things into common consciousness (and the lack of hype might catch some players off-guard, leading to more impulse buys).
Personally, I think that using this approach is predatory and more than a little bit evil. With that said, I can still appreciate it from the business end of things.
I read into it the same thing. I had to read it twice to make sure that I didn't misread it. There is the possibility that it will be available longer than 24 hours but still, a 72 hour window with such short notice....
For shame Wizards. You throw a Secret Lair at us last month and throw the unset presales at us this month and you want your player base to buy more a Secret Lairs on Valentines day (weekend)?!
Absolutely shameful behavior at money grabbing and abusing the very player base that supports the company.
I absolutely do not care if it's Hasbro pulling the strings here. WotC (and higher ups) more than willing to act like shills shows they're just as worthless as the greedy investors driving all of this.
What do you have to say now Maro? You like where your employer is headed?
Oh its just Wizards being Wizards again. Players not happy Discover a new method that players like Over do it till players hate it Wonder why players are unhappy
If by stars aligning they mean Nyx, and these are the original Theros gods with alternate art and possible constellation frames, then this will be the first secret lair to interest me.
Sounds plausible... the background in the announcement video looks a lot like the THB promo art of the starfield with the god and demigod constellations.
Maybe five drops mean they divide them by colors - one mono- and the two best-fitting two-color gods per drop or something like that?
Not gonna lie, I kinda hoped they do a showcase-style Ephara somewhere, so this might be the first secret lair that has something desirable for me.
Oh its just Wizards being Wizards again. Players not happy Discover a new method that players like Over do it till players hate it Wonder why players are unhappy
I'll bet money they keep a file of failed attempts. They catalogue the failed attempts then try again a short while down the road until, after a few months, years, whatever, they get what they want.
In California, there was an initial attempt to pass a law requiring all motorcyclists to wear helmets. I believe this was sometime in the late 70's or early 80's. The law failed to pass miserably due to pressure from motorcycle interest groups. Freedom to do what you want, etc. So a couple of years later, a new bill was introduced that required anyone under the age of 15 1/2 years old to wear a motorcycle helmet. The angle thrown was different, it was all about protecting the safety of children. The law passed in (IIRC) 1986, despite pressures from the same motorcycle groups. Then California lawmakers waited for 1992 to present and pass, a new law requiring all motorcyclists to wear helmets regardless of age despite overwhelming opposition from motorcycle groups.
This is exactly what WotC is doing. They'll push this utter nonsense on their players until we squawk. Then they'll withdraw, wait a short time, then push again. They'll keep doing this time and time again until the market collapses. Why not? With current investor mentality, it's very clear they don't give two rats tails about the health of a company or the market as long as those few can walk away with padded pockets. Compare to failed companies like Toys 'R' Us that were dismantled by investors or Radio Shack locked into suicidal contracts.
The sad truth is, Magic doesn’t just have to sell well. It must continue to sell better than it previously did. Otherwise, Hasbro will trim its funding. And that means layoffs. I have a sad feeling these are genuine artists who do love this game, simply fighting for survival against corporate demand.
Frankly, with every horrid, insidious and deliberately evil thing I had seen Konami get away with in my 12 year tenure in Yugioh, believe me when I insist that Secret Lair, Masters sets, product fatigue, and literally every plausible complaint a Magic player could possibly conceive is vastly mild in comparison. I cannot stress this enough.
The sad truth is, Magic doesn’t just have to sell well. It must continue to sell better than it previously did. Otherwise, Hasbro will trim its funding. And that means layoffs. I have a sad feeling these are genuine artists who do love this game, simply fighting for survival against corporate demand.
Frankly, with every horrid, insidious and deliberately evil thing I had seen Konami get away with in my 12 year tenure in Yugioh, believe me when I insist that Secret Lair, Masters sets, product fatigue, and literally every plausible complaint a Magic player could possibly conceive is vastly mild in comparison. I cannot stress this enough.
While I don't know everything Konomi did I know their general trend was awful. But while there are similarities in what magic is doing there is one HUGE difference between these games that makes what they are doing radically different. Yugioh only has one real format(as far as I can tell) which makes all of their products targeted at the same audience. Magic has over a 11 official constructed formats plus a dozenish variations on those formats. Meaning that not all of their products are aimed at the same people. I can understand that some people see release after release and are overwhelmed but when you realize the different targets it doesn't seem so saturated. If you look at the last two releases you can immediately see this. Theros and Unsanctioned. While there might be overlap their actual targets are radically different. Next up is Secret Lair and that could target Commander or Legacy or Modern players so once more a completely different target. If you are one of those who falls under "anything magic" then yes you are hit by a lot of splash damage but people aren't supposed to be "anything magic related"; they are expected to fall into a few categories but not all of them.
The sad truth is, Magic doesn’t just have to sell well. It must continue to sell better than it previously did. Otherwise, Hasbro will trim its funding. And that means layoffs. I have a sad feeling these are genuine artists who do love this game, simply fighting for survival against corporate demand.
Frankly, with every horrid, insidious and deliberately evil thing I had seen Konami get away with in my 12 year tenure in Yugioh, believe me when I insist that Secret Lair, Masters sets, product fatigue, and literally every plausible complaint a Magic player could possibly conceive is vastly mild in comparison. I cannot stress this enough.
While I don't know everything Konomi did I know their general trend was awful. But while there are similarities in what magic is doing there is one HUGE difference between these games that makes what they are doing radically different. Yugioh only has one real format(as far as I can tell) which makes all of their products targeted at the same audience. Magic has over a 11 official constructed formats plus a dozenish variations on those formats. Meaning that not all of their products are aimed at the same people. I can understand that some people see release after release and are overwhelmed but when you realize the different targets it doesn't seem so saturated. If you look at the last two releases you can immediately see this. Theros and Unsanctioned. While there might be overlap their actual targets are radically different. Next up is Secret Lair and that could target Commander or Legacy or Modern players so once more a completely different target. If you are one of those who falls under "anything magic" then yes you are hit by a lot of splash damage but people aren't supposed to be "anything magic related"; they are expected to fall into a few categories but not all of them.
This is actually a very valid point. That may be why I don’t feel as affected. Appealing to various audiences is actually favorable. I suspect the issue with secret lair is that it isn’t really aN ideal reprint avenue when the prices are so high. It still feels elusive and doesn’t address a major issue in the game of limited access to certain cards
The sad truth is, Magic doesn’t just have to sell well. It must continue to sell better than it previously did. Otherwise, Hasbro will trim its funding. And that means layoffs. I have a sad feeling these are genuine artists who do love this game, simply fighting for survival against corporate demand.
Frankly, with every horrid, insidious and deliberately evil thing I had seen Konami get away with in my 12 year tenure in Yugioh, believe me when I insist that Secret Lair, Masters sets, product fatigue, and literally every plausible complaint a Magic player could possibly conceive is vastly mild in comparison. I cannot stress this enough.
While I don't know everything Konomi did I know their general trend was awful. But while there are similarities in what magic is doing there is one HUGE difference between these games that makes what they are doing radically different. Yugioh only has one real format(as far as I can tell) which makes all of their products targeted at the same audience. Magic has over a 11 official constructed formats plus a dozenish variations on those formats. Meaning that not all of their products are aimed at the same people. I can understand that some people see release after release and are overwhelmed but when you realize the different targets it doesn't seem so saturated. If you look at the last two releases you can immediately see this. Theros and Unsanctioned. While there might be overlap their actual targets are radically different. Next up is Secret Lair and that could target Commander or Legacy or Modern players so once more a completely different target. If you are one of those who falls under "anything magic" then yes you are hit by a lot of splash damage but people aren't supposed to be "anything magic related"; they are expected to fall into a few categories but not all of them.
we like to think this, but what magic players are in the game strictly for X format?
its a misconception. even the people who strictly draft often buy limited release product. the people who play commander are into everything. legacy players will pick up what they need from new sets. yes, there are a wide array of ways to play magic, but magic players gobble up everything thrown at them. even more so when you start planting cards for other formats in products. we like to think they don't market products at the entire market, but they really do and we eat it up.
how many commander precons have sold because of a legacy plant. how many secret lairs sold because people liked the art, or are into goblins. the grim reality is magic products are aimed toward magic players. its our own little bubbles that make us think they're not aimed at us, or a particular subset of players.
hell that doesn't even account for the lotto aspect of things. how many packs have you seen cracked playing the *insert card name* lotto.
they want dollars. they're not going to design and release products aimed squarely at one audience when they can aim it all of them. the minute we start accepting that fact we can stop fooling ourselves and push for legitimate change.
While I find the constant products annoying, it’s not so bad. Those who want the secret lairs get them, and those who do not will not. I don’t feel like I missed out on anything b my skipping the others because I could care less about their contents or collecting those cards. If this one has Theros gods, it’ll be the first I care for. If not, Ill skip it. I think too many players have this mentality of needing to have every exclusive product just in case it becomes an investment in the future. How about players just pursue what actually interests them and let go of that hoarding mentality?
While I find the constant products annoying, it’s not so bad. Those who want the secret lairs get them, and those who do not will not. I don’t feel like I missed out on anything b my skipping the others because I could care less about their contents or collecting those cards. If this one has Theros gods, it’ll be the first I care for. If not, Ill skip it. I think too many players have this mentality of needing to have every exclusive product just in case it becomes an investment in the future. How about players just pursue what actually interests them and let go of that hoarding mentality?
This is my modus operandi. I’m essentially retired as a player, but I collect certain cards to build certain decks for my family’s enjoyment here on out. I’m not fatigued by product drops as there’s nothing in Theros: Beyond Death I want, nothing in this recently dropped Unsanctioned set. Only one card in Throne of Eldraine. I’m actually excited to see what’s in this Secret Lairs drop.
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
God I’m hoping there’s nothing in these for me for my poor wallet.
they need to slow the **** down. focus on making products i want to buy longer term (better sets) and shy away from gimmicky short print run stuff that i feel like i HAVE to buy or i miss out.
there's just too much crap on the market competing for my dollars. i'd rather see a sustainable higher quality lower priced product than these relatively expensive avalanche style releases.
yeah yeah, you don't have to buy every product, and not every product is for every player. i skip the large majority of them, but its also caused me to lose interest in a lot of the draft and standard format stuff because of decreased quality. they're definitely exploiting the ***** out of the FOMO mentality and its nauseating. it also gets really frustrating to be bombarded with product releases worth it or otherwise, over a longer period it just erodes interest in the over all product. when you have to pick and choose because you're having so much thrown in your face, ultimately you just kind of... move on to something that you can enjoy at a less frenetic pace.
also betting that this is where the oubliette reprint happens, and people will be rightfully angry about it.
They just milk the market.
If people keep buying overpriced crap they get more overpriced crap.
Anybody else just ignores it.
----
The absolute worst part of it is that it undermines all the stores.
The product a store gets tanks in value and it just keeps going.
All the stores get a massive "FU" and if anybody cares for their store and place to play, this kind of product has to be boycott, its bleeding out all the stores worldwide.
And if people dont think like that, they will wake up and wonder why there are no stores anymore.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Stores can order secret lair and sell for a bigger profit than any of the regular products. nothing stops them from doing it.
Are they really so desperate for short-term profits?
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
That said, what is with WOTC lately? Product fatigue is indeed a major issue. Why can’t they just let players enjoy Theros? I remember when it felt like they really placed a great deal of care and emphasis on whatever set was newly released. This time it felt like they spent every opportunity to overshadow Theros with Ikoria and now secret lairs to keep pressing sales.
All the secret lairs thus far have been a bore for me but I’m equally dreading any interest in these. I may breathe a sigh of relief if it isn’t Theros gods just to avoid overpriced product after my very justified focus on THB.
Also the whole “investment” outlook on MtG deserves to be exploited and killed. It’s a game. And hoarding is a disease.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Can't blame them if the idiot base gobbles it up. They're just catering to demand and apparently people like this stuff. The line between a game and an investment is very very thin.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I resent and feel sad for WOTC to be under such executive pressure. We see the Hasbro impact everywhere lately, even the lore. All this restructuring and corporate influence compromising it
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
So in other words, "Move along. Nothing to see here!" right?
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
If I’m reading things right, all five drops will be available on the same day... which is also the day they’re revealed.
instead of giving previews and letting players process things and discuss to make informed decisions on which ones are worth it and which ones aren’t, they are trying to force impulse purchases.
While the lack of previews might cost this release some hype, announcing things at a championship will still push things into common consciousness (and the lack of hype might catch some players off-guard, leading to more impulse buys).
Personally, I think that using this approach is predatory and more than a little bit evil. With that said, I can still appreciate it from the business end of things.
I read into it the same thing. I had to read it twice to make sure that I didn't misread it. There is the possibility that it will be available longer than 24 hours but still, a 72 hour window with such short notice....
For shame Wizards. You throw a Secret Lair at us last month and throw the unset presales at us this month and you want your player base to buy more a Secret Lairs on Valentines day (weekend)?!
Absolutely shameful behavior at money grabbing and abusing the very player base that supports the company.
I absolutely do not care if it's Hasbro pulling the strings here. WotC (and higher ups) more than willing to act like shills shows they're just as worthless as the greedy investors driving all of this.
What do you have to say now Maro? You like where your employer is headed?
Players not happy
Discover a new method that players like
Over do it till players hate it
Wonder why players are unhappy
Sounds plausible... the background in the announcement video looks a lot like the THB promo art of the starfield with the god and demigod constellations.
Maybe five drops mean they divide them by colors - one mono- and the two best-fitting two-color gods per drop or something like that?
Not gonna lie, I kinda hoped they do a showcase-style Ephara somewhere, so this might be the first secret lair that has something desirable for me.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
I'll bet money they keep a file of failed attempts. They catalogue the failed attempts then try again a short while down the road until, after a few months, years, whatever, they get what they want.
In California, there was an initial attempt to pass a law requiring all motorcyclists to wear helmets. I believe this was sometime in the late 70's or early 80's. The law failed to pass miserably due to pressure from motorcycle interest groups. Freedom to do what you want, etc. So a couple of years later, a new bill was introduced that required anyone under the age of 15 1/2 years old to wear a motorcycle helmet. The angle thrown was different, it was all about protecting the safety of children. The law passed in (IIRC) 1986, despite pressures from the same motorcycle groups. Then California lawmakers waited for 1992 to present and pass, a new law requiring all motorcyclists to wear helmets regardless of age despite overwhelming opposition from motorcycle groups.
This is exactly what WotC is doing. They'll push this utter nonsense on their players until we squawk. Then they'll withdraw, wait a short time, then push again. They'll keep doing this time and time again until the market collapses. Why not? With current investor mentality, it's very clear they don't give two rats tails about the health of a company or the market as long as those few can walk away with padded pockets. Compare to failed companies like Toys 'R' Us that were dismantled by investors or Radio Shack locked into suicidal contracts.
Frankly, with every horrid, insidious and deliberately evil thing I had seen Konami get away with in my 12 year tenure in Yugioh, believe me when I insist that Secret Lair, Masters sets, product fatigue, and literally every plausible complaint a Magic player could possibly conceive is vastly mild in comparison. I cannot stress this enough.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
we like to think this, but what magic players are in the game strictly for X format?
its a misconception. even the people who strictly draft often buy limited release product. the people who play commander are into everything. legacy players will pick up what they need from new sets. yes, there are a wide array of ways to play magic, but magic players gobble up everything thrown at them. even more so when you start planting cards for other formats in products. we like to think they don't market products at the entire market, but they really do and we eat it up.
how many commander precons have sold because of a legacy plant. how many secret lairs sold because people liked the art, or are into goblins. the grim reality is magic products are aimed toward magic players. its our own little bubbles that make us think they're not aimed at us, or a particular subset of players.
hell that doesn't even account for the lotto aspect of things. how many packs have you seen cracked playing the *insert card name* lotto.
they want dollars. they're not going to design and release products aimed squarely at one audience when they can aim it all of them. the minute we start accepting that fact we can stop fooling ourselves and push for legitimate change.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This is my modus operandi. I’m essentially retired as a player, but I collect certain cards to build certain decks for my family’s enjoyment here on out. I’m not fatigued by product drops as there’s nothing in Theros: Beyond Death I want, nothing in this recently dropped Unsanctioned set. Only one card in Throne of Eldraine. I’m actually excited to see what’s in this Secret Lairs drop.