It is an interesting take because it cut the reactive spells and moved them to the sideboard. Specifically, it cut rattlechains, and moved two to the SB, and only had two Quellers MB, with two more in the SB. Conversely, it ran four Remorseful Cleric main, along with disruptive elements like Thalia and Deputy of Detention.
I personally don't love the SB, especially the two copies of Condemn. Feels like you could do something more powerful there. I also don't like running UW and not having RIP. That said, its an interesting approach, taking a more aggressive angle, using Deputy to clear the path for those final points of damage by a Geist.
Anyone have any thoughts on the list and approach?
Correct. I actually played a league last night with Yahaan Mangani's configuration - minus the Geist of St. Traft for an extra Selfless Spirit and went 4-1 losing in the final round to Amulet Titan. It felt decent, but a very limited sample. Feels risky for sure. Humans runs 18-19 lands, with four Horizon Canopy, but they also have 4 Noble H.
I was particularly surprised to see both lists keep three colorless mana sources. I could see pushing it with 19, but 18 over 12 rounds seems very risky. Perhaps with the London Mulligan we will see something like this become more reasonable?
My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
MTG Top 8 has two recent UW spirit lists that have done well in decent tourneys that are running 18 lands. Is this a new innovation that anyone else is seeing?
Thanks for responding StrexIt. I'm pretty sure I've played you before, but now I'll be on the lookout:) I play a league almost every day, although right now I'm feeling a bit tilted as in the current meta getting 5-0 is so difficult (4-1 is totally reasonable), so I've been trying my pet Eternal Command decks.
When I first joined MTGO I was playing pure budget WU, then I added Souls and loved it. I went away when I was having lots of success in competative with WU - before the rise of Phoenix and the new shift in the meta - but maybe now I should reconsider it. Souls would buy you a ton of time vs. the top decks for sure.
Thanks for your thoughts on the SB plan. Have you tried Auriok Champion? Man that card is good vs some of the best decks. I've liked the four of. My greatest weakness as a player, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, is with side boarding, both in building the SB and in making decisions about what to bring in. I find that I win a lot of game ones with Spirits, even against the top decks, and you would think that once we go to SB I would be favored because of how good white is, but that's not how it plays out. I believe I over side board and take my deck away from what it does best: Disrupt and get hexproof locks in the air.
I think the reason people shy away from Rest in Peace is because Phoenix has so many ways to attack you, and they see so many cards that cutting them off of flashback looting and phoenix recursion isn't the end of the world. The card that beats us in my view is Thing in the Ice. I also like to be able to moorland haunt to buy time. Cage might be a consideration but they pack some number of Abrade's. Because I'm running four Auriok I've gone away from Cage in the SB - with two RIP I don't want to be devoting anymore than 6 cards to dredge.
What I would love is for some number of WU/WUB spirits players to collaborate to build a SB and SB plan for folks. I'm pretty confident in my ability to pilot the deck - playing basically every day for two plus years will do that - but figuring out the flex slots and the SB + plan is much more challenging in the ever changing meta of modern.
Sweet, thanks for the breakdown. Yeah, Eternal Command is really challenging. I was getting crushed on MTGO competitive for a while, then turned a corner with the deck. Now I'm coming back to it and seeing if I can figure out a list that makes sense. I think I would prefer three Scooze MB and no Flayer in the current meta, but that might not be correct.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
So you guys are full on board with obsession eh? I've tried it at various times, but I always end up cutting it. It's good vs. certain decks, but against the top decks I don't see it being that good.
I play almost WU Spirits exclusively on MTGO in competitive leagues so your facing a lot of the top decks. What are peoples thoughts on how to sideboard vs. Phoenix builds?
I've been following Gerry Thompson and using 4 Auriok Champion in the SB. It's so good vs. Dredge, Burn, Hollow One, and Death Shadow that going with the full four just makes sense. It totally swings those match-ups in our favor. However, you end up having to warp your SB a bit.
I've also been fiddling a lot with the flex slots of which there are five in my view. Three two drop slots, two three drop slots. One one drop slot if you want to shave a fourth path.
I've tried Thalia, but damn she dies to gut shot easily. Currently I've been trying three copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth. With that card is good, it is bonkers. Its better vs. Control in my view than Thalia. But like Thalia it is vulnerable. Of course its also a spirit and so its easier to protect. The other option is to go with a split between your Selfless Spirit, Thalia/Labyrinth, and then Remorseful Cleric. Maybe a 3-2-2 split. I've literally been fiddling with the two drop flex spot for two years, and can't seem to find what works best in the current meta.
At the three drop slot I'd like to try Dovin again. Tried a couple when it first came out but went away. I keep going back to Nebelghast Herald and Kirra as my 9-10 three drops.
Would love to here from people how they SB vs. Izzet Phoenix. I'm bringing in a Worship and two copies of Damping Sphere. Also would like to know if anyone has tried going all in on the Aurioks.
Also, what are people's thoughts on MB Huntmaster of the Fells vs. SB? I love that card, and had been going lighter on the combo, and instead running 2 Cryptic and 2 MB Huntmaster, with only two MB Witness. That might not be the best configuration although I managed a 5-0 in competitive with it:)
Interesting comments on Incubation. I'll test it, but those numbers aren't what I'd hoped for. I will say that it's unlikely that I would ever be casting the Incubation side of the spell early unless I'm playing something non-interactive so that might change the numbers a bit? Maybe we use our serum visions to keep creatures in our deck, and just focus on removal and counter magic early, and then when we are ready to turn the corner we can cast Incubation, or use the removal side.
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
Agree 100%. Blood is just to punishing on our own manabase. I think 2-3 of these will greatly improve a number of matchups. Blood Moon is great because it basically protects itself because it hoses an entire manabase, but it also ruins us.
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
Oh my god, I've won so many games vs. Burn copying Eidolon. It's so good. The card makes me so happy. The number is always the question. My primary argument for four is that in my view, the strongest play we can make is turn three Captain + vial Image. The more times you can do that, the more times you will win.
I've tested, 2 (started with two), 3, and four. I always come back to four. But, I could see scenarios where fewer is better. If your running Curious Obsession that might be one such situation because you can dig for it.
@Streexgeist, I'll test Hurkl's Recall as well. I don't love Kataki, War's Wage because it taxes our vials. I find Stony Silence is usually game over against Affinity regardless of whether it shuts down our vial. I don't bring Kataki in vs. Tron because it rarely does anything.
I'm just really like Spirit Taxes right now. Prior to switching Tron, Titanshift, along with Humans/Merfolk were my most difficult matchups. Leonin Arbiter changes the matchup vs. Tron and Titanshift. I also like it vs. Jund. I loved playing with Kor Firewalker to fight burn, but Thalia, Guardian of Thraben does a solid job in its stead.
It feels like Spirit Taxes is the best build in the current meta, but I could be totally wrong:) Just how things are playing out for me in the friendly queue's online.
It is an interesting take because it cut the reactive spells and moved them to the sideboard. Specifically, it cut rattlechains, and moved two to the SB, and only had two Quellers MB, with two more in the SB. Conversely, it ran four Remorseful Cleric main, along with disruptive elements like Thalia and Deputy of Detention.
I personally don't love the SB, especially the two copies of Condemn. Feels like you could do something more powerful there. I also don't like running UW and not having RIP. That said, its an interesting approach, taking a more aggressive angle, using Deputy to clear the path for those final points of damage by a Geist.
Anyone have any thoughts on the list and approach?
I was particularly surprised to see both lists keep three colorless mana sources. I could see pushing it with 19, but 18 over 12 rounds seems very risky. Perhaps with the London Mulligan we will see something like this become more reasonable?
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Flameslash
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Remand
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thing in the Ice
1 Izzet Charm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Cryptic Command
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Flooded Grove
4 Mister Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Abrade
2 Cindervine
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
When I first joined MTGO I was playing pure budget WU, then I added Souls and loved it. I went away when I was having lots of success in competative with WU - before the rise of Phoenix and the new shift in the meta - but maybe now I should reconsider it. Souls would buy you a ton of time vs. the top decks for sure.
Thanks for your thoughts on the SB plan. Have you tried Auriok Champion? Man that card is good vs some of the best decks. I've liked the four of. My greatest weakness as a player, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, is with side boarding, both in building the SB and in making decisions about what to bring in. I find that I win a lot of game ones with Spirits, even against the top decks, and you would think that once we go to SB I would be favored because of how good white is, but that's not how it plays out. I believe I over side board and take my deck away from what it does best: Disrupt and get hexproof locks in the air.
I think the reason people shy away from Rest in Peace is because Phoenix has so many ways to attack you, and they see so many cards that cutting them off of flashback looting and phoenix recursion isn't the end of the world. The card that beats us in my view is Thing in the Ice. I also like to be able to moorland haunt to buy time. Cage might be a consideration but they pack some number of Abrade's. Because I'm running four Auriok I've gone away from Cage in the SB - with two RIP I don't want to be devoting anymore than 6 cards to dredge.
What I would love is for some number of WU/WUB spirits players to collaborate to build a SB and SB plan for folks. I'm pretty confident in my ability to pilot the deck - playing basically every day for two plus years will do that - but figuring out the flex slots and the SB + plan is much more challenging in the ever changing meta of modern.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
I play almost WU Spirits exclusively on MTGO in competitive leagues so your facing a lot of the top decks. What are peoples thoughts on how to sideboard vs. Phoenix builds?
I've been following Gerry Thompson and using 4 Auriok Champion in the SB. It's so good vs. Dredge, Burn, Hollow One, and Death Shadow that going with the full four just makes sense. It totally swings those match-ups in our favor. However, you end up having to warp your SB a bit.
I've also been fiddling a lot with the flex slots of which there are five in my view. Three two drop slots, two three drop slots. One one drop slot if you want to shave a fourth path.
I've tried Thalia, but damn she dies to gut shot easily. Currently I've been trying three copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth. With that card is good, it is bonkers. Its better vs. Control in my view than Thalia. But like Thalia it is vulnerable. Of course its also a spirit and so its easier to protect. The other option is to go with a split between your Selfless Spirit, Thalia/Labyrinth, and then Remorseful Cleric. Maybe a 3-2-2 split. I've literally been fiddling with the two drop flex spot for two years, and can't seem to find what works best in the current meta.
At the three drop slot I'd like to try Dovin again. Tried a couple when it first came out but went away. I keep going back to Nebelghast Herald and Kirra as my 9-10 three drops.
Would love to here from people how they SB vs. Izzet Phoenix. I'm bringing in a Worship and two copies of Damping Sphere. Also would like to know if anyone has tried going all in on the Aurioks.
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
Anyways, everyone's help is appreciated.
I have a question about Abrade vs. Ancient Grudge. Isn't Abrade just better because it can be used vs. artifacts but also against creatures?
I've tested, 2 (started with two), 3, and four. I always come back to four. But, I could see scenarios where fewer is better. If your running Curious Obsession that might be one such situation because you can dig for it.
@Streexgeist, I'll test Hurkl's Recall as well. I don't love Kataki, War's Wage because it taxes our vials. I find Stony Silence is usually game over against Affinity regardless of whether it shuts down our vial. I don't bring Kataki in vs. Tron because it rarely does anything.
I'm just really like Spirit Taxes right now. Prior to switching Tron, Titanshift, along with Humans/Merfolk were my most difficult matchups. Leonin Arbiter changes the matchup vs. Tron and Titanshift. I also like it vs. Jund. I loved playing with Kor Firewalker to fight burn, but Thalia, Guardian of Thraben does a solid job in its stead.
It feels like Spirit Taxes is the best build in the current meta, but I could be totally wrong:) Just how things are playing out for me in the friendly queue's online.