Ok, so the full Allegiance spoiler has been released and I believe it's fair to say that Modern Merfolk didn't get much. There are a few cards we can consider, but I think that on the whole, we were largely snubbed. Which is fine, there's a lot of archetypes and decks out there, and we can't get a new card every set. However, there are some things we can consider throughout the set.
By and large, I think Merfolk is still in good shape. The addition of Merfolk Trickster in Dominaria really gave our deck a solid shot in the arm, and while we still have gaps (specifically at the 1 drop slot--come on Wizards Stifle fish, that's all we want) we're holding our own. Should we take some time to assess what we may do.
I think it's safe to say there are only three cards we can really assess for modern Merfolk.
Incubation // Incongruity: Personally, I really like this card. I think that while Peek offers quite a bit in terms of value, many decks in the current meta are cycling through cards so fast that knowing what's in an opponent's hand is kind of irrelevant. While there's certainly something to be said for having information, I think Incubation's properties should be considered as well. Having a chance to dig moderately deep for a silver bullet like Mistcaller or Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, a needed island walk lord, or some needed bit of interactivity will allow us to keep hands that we would not be able to keep otherwise. And let's face it, we could use a bit of help smoothing out mulligans. Now let's talk about the removal half, I think we're undervaluing this half of the card. While a three mana (off color) Rapid Hybridization may not impress at first sight, let's think this through. 6-7 green sources would make this card more than castable on turn 3+, it would provide a way to turn Wurmcoils, Gurmags, 12/12 Shadows, and anything else that our fish don't tangle well with in to a very manageable 3/3. At instant speed, which can't be sneezed at. We've never had such an ability in Merfolk outside of Vapor Snag, and we probably shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. 3 Botanical Sanctums, 2 Horizon Canopy (something I've really wanted to try), and a single Breeding Pool would not tax our mana pool too much (if at all), and would allow us to have access to something I think we should consider. Also, perhaps it's worth thinking about how this could be used to exile our own creature in response to a removal spell. Perhaps it's less than desirable, but leaving a 3/3 token to block or attack with would allow us to salvage something from nothing.
Benthic Biomancer: I think that we discussed this card above. It'll be solid in standard fish, but for modern I don't think we can use him. I'm sure that we'll get something eventually, but as of right now, I think we're better off either skipping 1 drop creatures entirely, or going for something like Mistcaller.
Repudiate // Replicate is a card I think we may be able to consider as a sideboard option. Let's not be too excited, this card isn't Stifle, but there are times in which this could be really useful. Cancelling out an activated Oblivion Stone, or Ugin, or a fetch (when we're on the play) seems like it would be very powerful. And cloning a Lord or other utility creature might come in handy. For me (a guy who has had a hard time letting go of Merrow Reejerey) this may be a way to finally do that. But I don't know if this is worth main decking. Right now, it may serve as a two of in my board--Likely Replacing Damping Sphere.
Ultimately, the fact that we can even consider 3 cards in this set is pretty generous. We may not really need (or want) any of these, but I think at least 1 of them could be worth trying out. What does everyone else think?
Since Adapt has been so remarkably horrible to my mind, I thought I'd put it on a card that might actually be worth a damn.
Cunning Trapsetter U
Merfolk
Adapt 1 1U: (if this creature has no +1/+1 counters on it, put a +1/+1 counters on it.) Whenever this creature adapts counter target activated or triggered ability.
1/1
Or, if that's too good
Cunning Trapsetter U
Merfolk Rogue U, sacrifice Cunning Trapsetter: Counter target activated or triggered ability.
1/1
Modern Merfolk could use an actual boost in the current meta and this feels about right for me. Cursecatcher is just not cutting it anymore and Mistcaller is pretty narrowly focused.
Yeah, I don't think the new Biomancer is going to work out. I don't see a world where that adapt cost is worth it. If you drop this on turn 1 or 2 (off of vial)and sure, you can hold up Trickster or Counter mana and if it's not needed you can Adapt and loot, but that seems like a best case scenario. If you play this turn 1 or 2, you can't follow up with a lord on turn 2 and still adapt without a vial for the lord which sort of negates the point of the card. And as a top deck mid to late game this is super dead. Sure, card selection is good, but is this better than Smuggler's Copter (which most of us no longer play)? I like looting as much as the next guy, but I just don't see how this is better than Mistcaller, or Cursecatcher, or even Cosi's Trickster which is going to get much larger over the coarse of more games. I'm not sure I want to spend my flex spots on him in modern.
In standard fish, however, this guy looks super solid.
So I think this card looks really decent. I could pontificate about what I think card does for us, but I think Nikachu did a good deal of that in his video and I don't think I could add much to it, except to say that I think that the removal portion of the the card is being underrated. So, I wanted to whip together a sample deck list that I think can take advantage of what this potential tool may provide.
Hey team Fish, I wanted to see what everyone thought about an idea I've had regarding Tropical Fish.
Right now, I feel like our deck needs a form of fast disruption on the draw that can slow our opponents down a bit, while advancing our own game plan. To this end I'm thinking that Merfolk Branchwalker might give us enough psuedo-draw power to help make up for the card draw we'd lose by swapping Spreading Seas for Sea's Claim.
I've been testing this theory of mine out online for the last week and I have to say that I think it's been working out just fine. However, I've yet to put it to work in any competitive environs yet. I wanted to see what people thought before I dove in. Here's my list at it stands:
// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
// 29 Creature
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Kumena's Speaker
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Master of Waves
3 Phantasmal Image
1 Merrow Reejerey
// 4 Enchantment
4 Sea's Claim
// 3 Instant
3 Spell Pierce
// 20 Land
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
3 Island
3 Mutavault
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
3 Relic of Progenitus
I think this list provides some needed action when on the draw. I know that many U/G lists want to run Collected Company (a significant draw indeed), but I just think that MoW is the bomb we want in the current meta.
Anyway, I just wanted to see what people thought.
Thanks
Hey Suozi,
Sorry again about how long it took for me to check up on this. School is back in and I've been crazy busy with students so not much time for Magic unfortunately.
After digging into your list I think you're looking pretty good. I think there's a few things you may want to consider though going forward.
First, I think your sac outlets look okay, but they can be improved with a bit of $$ (I know, that sucks to say, but that's just the name of the game. I'm running 17 total sacrifice outlets in my deck, which doesn't seem like a lot (admittedly I could use another one), but it's pretty appropriate given that many (if not most) are repeatable and free. More on this later.
Your curve isn't terrible for an EDH deck. Yeah, you have a lot of 5 mana spells, but that's not inherently bad. Try adjusting some of your ramp spells and see what you can do. If that doesn't work, I suggest scaling back on the card draw effects that cost more than 3, and try more 2 mana tutors like Demonic Tutor, Fauna Shaman, Diabolic Intent, and Traverse the Ulvenwald. This can help you find the cards you need in a given situation.
I've noticed you don't have much in the way of recursion. I'd seriously take a look at the following cards, and consider if they are worth testing.
How many artifacts and enchantments are you seeing in your play group? It looks like you have quite a few cards that are meant to address these, and I'm not sure if you need all that many. I run the following (or will be once Guilds of Ravnica lands)
Obviously, some of these are multi-purpose, but their primary function is to deal with non-creature permanents as effectively as possible while still providing utility elsewhere. While things like Caustic Caterpillar are synergistic, that's about the best they'll ever be. Bane of Progress however, that's something you'll get greater value out of. Good pick there.
I think you'll also want to look a bit more at cards that synergize across the whole of the deck a bit more. Things like Temur Sabertooth are nice at four mana, but you'll probably be getting more bang for your buck (mana-wise) if you play something like Jarad, Golari Lich Lord. He happens to pair very nicely with things like Doomgape[/car], Kokushko, the Evening Star, and my own personal favorite combo Lord of Extinction a.k.a. "DoomTube". You have a few guys that can get really big, Yehenni, Mycoloth, put them to use in the air too by flinging them.
While we're on the topic of combos, it looks like you could use a few "I win" buttons. I know they're not "fun" and I'm not advocating infinite combos, but something that you can rely on as a feel good for when you're behind. Mikaeus, the Unhollowed is a card I highly recommend (and worth the price), as it synergizes with everything the deck wants to do--effectively doubling every sac you make. And, it so happens that Dark Mike and Woodfall Primus pretty much just win the game on the spot. And can be tutored up in a pinch by something like Defense of the Heart or Tooth and Nail.
You appear to be relying a great deal on drawing cards, whereas my deck is much more of a toolbox. I'm digging into my deck in a ton if different ways, and I've found tutors are just a bit more reliable. They're always the cheapest cards, but they are the most effective way to get the cards you want. Tutors in my deck include:
I'm never at a loss for the card I need thanks to all of these.
While we're talking about digging into you deck, let's talk about your ramp suite. For the most part I think it looks good. Except, I really think you want a few things. First, Skyshroud Claim this is an all star. If you can, try and pick one up. Normally, I'd say pulling lands out of your deck is better than relying on mana rocks, but you may consider packing a few more in your deck just in case one of your man-land effects backfires and you need some mana. Obvious cards like Gilded Lotus and Darksteel Ingot come to mind.
Overall, I think you're working with a pretty good list. My gut tells me that if you're running into issues, it's because you feel like you don't have the right tools to deal with the board at the right time. This can be solved by addressing the balance between card draw and tutors. Up your tutor count a bit (upping your ramp can help too by thinning out your deck), and see how that feels. I imagine that you also feel like there are times when you're just a mana or two short, or half a turn behind, I think this may be due to the many mana-based sacrifice effects you're running. Your deck appears to be pretty greedy on the mana, maybe look for a few more free sac outlets like Flesh-Eater Imp or Altar of Dementia. These cards allow you to sac multiple creatures at a time, and don't cost a thing to activate. (Funnily enough, finding a few more decent ramp options can help here too).
I hope all this helps. Drop me another line and let me know, I'll try and be more punctual this go around.
Hey Souzi,
Thanks for giving Savra a shot, I don't think you'll be disappointed. She takes some learning but she's really a great GB option and she will not make you a target at your table (until you playgroup realizes what she can do).
As for you questions...
1a. How much life do lose as a result of her ability?
--Um, tough to say. It really depends on what is happening in the match. Sometimes you'll spend a lot keeping the board under wraps, sometimes you're just gaining life. Usually though, I'm balancing my life loss with some life gain and all things tend to equal out nicely.
1b. How do you feel about life-gain sac outlets? I feel like most are cheap and can offset the life loss fairly well.
--I like all of those, but I'd put priorities on "free" sac outlets like the altars and Flesh-Eater Imp first. You have plenty to do with your mana, you probably don't want to spend it just gaining 1 or 2 life...which you can probably just gain through Savra's ability.
2a. Savra obviously hoses voltron, but how does she fare against other matchups, especially reanimator?
--You will almost always fare well against Commander-centric deck. Some decks like Rhys the Redeemed which spit out tokens like crazy can give you trouble, but can be dealt with. And again there is Sigarda, Host of Herons (We don't talk about her....):argh:
Reanimator decks like Karador, Ghost Chieftain can give you a hard time if you're not prepared for them. BUT if you have them in your meta, and you prepare for them, you should be fine. I can generally force sac more than they can reanimate, plus you can work cards like Leyline of the Void or Scavenging Ooze into your build (*I like the ooze) and keep them under control. If you find yourself up against a reanimator deck then keep your head down, get your engine in place, and then pounce. One of Savra's greatest strengths is that she allows you to keep the others at the table in check while you focus one opponent at a time. Kill Bill, then Tim, then Jenny. Assess your threats, neutralize them, get them margaritas afterward, they will have plenty of salt for their glass.
2b. Is there room for a land-animator package to ensure opponents are sac-ing creatures?
-- Sure, if you want to, but I'd be worried about someone blowing up the board. I have to say, I'm not a fan of Living-Land type effects, because there's usually a wrath waiting in a hand somewhere. I mean, think about the dread you'll feel when someone at the table plops a card like Oblivion Stone down on the field and just sits? I'd be sweating bullets. And remember, lands have no color, so you can't sac them to trigger your commander.
3. Any cards you think are unique staples?
Yes, absolutely. Savra has some staples you'll really want to get your hands on. Unfortunately, some of them have climbed in price and looking at the deck now vs. when I bought 90% of it makes me cringe (but in a super happy way, I mean, who doesn't want to see their cards increase in price):)
Let's get some of those expensive cards out of they way:
1. Phyrexian Altar (all the altars, really): It's just too good, you want it. Can you live without it? Of course, but it's my primary sac outlet, and my stupid play group keeps K-griping it! God, leave it alone, Bryan!!! GRRRRR!!
2. Phyrexian Tower and High Market these are the two best lands in the deck apart from basic swamp and forest. You want one of the two on the field at all times.
3. Volrath's Stronghold This card is amazing and serves as one of my best recursion sources. It's a must in any black deck really, but particularly in decks like Savra where you can really break them.
4. Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos (or Butcher of Malakir) The fact is that Savra can get really expensive, and your deck has a plan, you need other ways to facilitate that plan.
5. 2-3 genuinely good life gain sources. If that's Grim Feast and Kokusho, the Evening Star like my list, or Exsanguinate and exquisite blood or whatever you'd like--you'll need a few sources of BIG life gain for those games where you're dumping life like crazy to keep the board clear.
That's really it as far as specific cards go. Sure, I love Necropotence and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder and Sadistic Hypnotist and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed but are they "staples"? I don't know, I mean, yeah--you'll see them in just about every Savra list (every good one anyway), but it all depends on your play group. For some, Necropotence is a super competitive card, or Sadistic Hypnotist is a d-bag card that doesn't let them play. I mean, I can see it that way, but I'll stop playing the Hippie, when Nate stops playing Narset. You hear that Nate!? I know you're reading this!
Don't sleep on good targeted or mass removal that's a broad as possible either: Beast Within Maelstrom Pulse Krosan Grip Damnation and/or Toxic Deluge Sometimes you just need to empty the board. EVERY EDH DECK NEEDS AT LEAST 3-4 good sweepers.
I hope that's helpful, I'd build the deck in proxy or Cockatrice first, see how you like it, learn the lines and then start brainstorming ideas of your own that are specific for you play group.
Good luck out there! Keep me posted on your progress!
Ely
Whoa, it has been a while.
Glad to see this has seen some traction since I climbed beneath my rock. Savra has certainly gotten some new tools for consideration. I've been out of the EDH game for a while, but now that I'm back I will try and do a better job of keeping this up to d
Would you guys like to see some game play videos? It'd be from cockatrice, but for EDH I think Cockatrice is a bit better. And hey, you'd get some commentary.
Hey, thanks for commenting. I agree, things aren't exactly novel as far as G/W builds go. BoP is really just a personal choice as it provides the red mana I need for crumble to dust, which may not be necessary, but I think it's effective. Pariah has served me particularly well as I don't have too many white players in my meta, now that I think about it.
I'd love to consider a build that runs Suppression Field more prominently, possibly alongside Kruphix's Insight rather than vessel. This would make running temples much easier, but with Starfield of Nyx as my primary wincon, I think it just makes too much sense to run vessels, which are just an impossibility with suppression field.
I'd argue pretty vehemently in favor of Defense Grid in blue control heavy metas. Sure, by the time you get to turn 5-7 it's value is much diminished, but with utopia and BoP ramping me into quick mana I'm usually able to get out ahead of that.
On an unrelated note, do we have any dream reprints we'd like to see in Return to Dominaria? My heart is desperately hoping for a reprint of Enchantress's Presence I'm sure it won't happen, but a man can dream!
Hey guys,
Wanted to take a minute to say how much this thread has helped out with my version of the deck. I've been messing around with W/X enchantments for a long time myself and have settled on this W/G Starfield build currently.
Some of my selections I know will surprise some people but they are, in my opinion, just as solid as many of the more mainstream options for Starfield of Nyx builds. Let me explain...
Why the green splash?
It's no secret our deck is mana hungry and Utopia Sprawl is a hell of a card. Utopia sprawl and Birds of Paradise (I'll get to why BoP over Arbor Elf in a bit) allows us to power down Ghostly Prison on turn 2, which as we all know can cripple many fair aggro decks like Affinity, Humans, and Merfolk. Green also gives us a powerful draw engine in Eidolon of Blossoms, which in conjunction with Starfield of Nyx is a potent 4/4 threat that you want to send to the bin, so swinging in and blocking become significantly easier.
But where green really shines is Vessel of Nascency. Vessel is an all-star with Starfield. Vessel allows us to dig like crazy, dumping cards into the bin while giving us gas in our hand, we can recur it with starfield to dig further, but where it shines the most is in a defensive position, allowing us to turn off our enchantment army at will. Vessel is stronger over in conjunction with Starfield many other deck manipulation options. Yes, it requires 3 mana, but the ramp from Utopia and BoP assist greatly with this.
Speaking of BoP and Utopia--I'm not a fan of Tron decks, I imagine that for many of us not in W/R this is a common feeling. So I wanted a way to punish them, Crumble to Dust works pretty soundly at doing that. This is not wholly necessary, but it's been effective for me.
Let's talk about Pariah. Pariah is a solid stall card. Slap it on an opponent's Tarmogoyf and you've effectively neutered it. Slap it on a Death's Shadow, and you've turned it into a removal spell (this is also a strong lock piece against fair aggro decks when paired with Starfield). But where the card does the most work is with Heliod, God of the Sun. Enchanting Heliod with Pariah means that you've effectively locked your opponent out of winning through damage. The same thing Solemnity and Phyrexian Unlife decks attempt to do, except you can put Heliod to work popping out tokens, beating for 5 (or 4 if you have Starfield--the world's an imperfect place). Yes, Heliod can still get pathed, but outside of that, the lock is pretty strong.
Hey boss,
looks like you've got a spicey little deck yourself. I like what you've done with the build. It looks like you're good on exile effects, but if you start to run into problems, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver looks like it'd be a fine addition to a build like this (maybe it can go in the board). You could probably go down one spell snare for it, if you wanted it in the main though. That is, if you're having issues with getting/keeping things in exile.
You're not running the soft lock combo in Eldrazi Displacer + Ulamog's Nullifier (Queller for me, but it's essentially the same idea) and exile effects which is sort of the crux of my particular build, but I can see where you made the choices you've made.
Your considerations are solid. You're right, you can spare a Delay. Although I'm not big on reciprocate myself, as I think you have more than enough in the way of removal (3 strangler and 4 paths is pretty solid and can take care of just about anything), something else in that slot couldn't hurt. If anything, I think you need to shore up some of your disruption effects, so my mind goes to something like Collective Brutality. Which is fine as a singleton, and can help out against a litany of match-ups.
What I saw that concerned me: I didn't personally have any luck with Tidehollow Sculler as he almost always got pushed, pathed, decayed, or bolted before I could process the card, making him ultimately useless. For me, I think your better off getting sure things into the exile bin and keeping them there, for this you'd be hard pressed to find something better than the following for your current build: [/card]Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, or Relic of Progenitus.
I really like your instincts on the cantrips--making sure you hit what you want to hit is really a very solid way to go. And your processor count looks fine to me at 6, but if you want to swap in another strangler and out another Nullifier you may find yourself happier. In my year plus of playing the deck, I've often found that 4 stranglers is just the way to go. Personally, I think you need a stronger finisher than flurry of small to mid-sized creatures, but if you had bad luck with Smasher then don't force it. Might I suggest a trio of Thoughtknot Seers in place of your tidehollows? Yes, your lose a bit on speed, but your top end is waaaay better, and your exiled cards are exiled forever. You curve out a bit more nicely with, cantrips on T1, counters on T2, quellers on T3, and TKS on 4. It wouldn't be hard to retool your mana base to support them: a couple temples, some filterlands, a single waste and boom you got it. Or if you're uncomfortable with that, take advantage of Lingering Souls, it really is one of the best cards in the format right now.
Ultimately, gun to my head, if you I had to make changes to your list (which may not need changes mind you), I would drop the 4 Tidehollow Scullers and put in 3 Lingering Souls and an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. I'd also drop 1 Nullifier, and put in 1 more Strangler. This would free up your board for more consistency (i.e. adding Ceremonious Rejections--no, really you need 3). That's if you don't want to change your mana base at all. IF you're willing to tinker with the mana, then that's a different story. But I don't want your deck to look too much like mine.
Keep us posted, I'm excited to see what you're working with!
Dan
P.S. Disrupting Shoal huh....Interesting. \
P.P.S. My current build
You know, I never gave much thought to how often I cast Nullifier as a simple 2/3 flash flier. I have to admit that it does happen, not frequently, but yeah- you're definitely on to something. I'm afraid I don't have any raw data for that one, but it's something to consider for sure. Nullifier is frequently one of the cards that I cut during sideboarding, and I have often thought that the deck could use a token creator such as Blight Herder or Drowner of Hope, both of which I've played around with periodically (Drowner being the stronger of the two). But I've always found that they were just too much alongside Reality Smasher. Eldrazi Skyspawner might just be the card I'm looking for, I'll have to check it out immediately. That's an exciting proposition.
In defense of Nullifier however, and perhaps we can weigh this consideration, it's a processor that can clean cards off of Spell Queller and remove Delayed threats. This is no small thing. Cards simply cannot sit on quellers or in suspend without a plan to take care of them permanently, and while Wasteland Strangler is great, Nullifier provides an additional insurance policy here. But, as you correctly said, there are times (usually in matches where I'm behind) that I'm casting it just to get a body on the field. I'm going to have to seriously crunch some numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment! I'll try and get some hard data up here as soon as possible.
Nothing much new to report. I have been playing the current build with success at FNM (3 wins locally) and online (find me on cockatrice). Condemn has been removed from the SB and replaced with Blessed Alliance as a good catch all to Death Shadow and Burn. I'm currently in the process of testing Opt over Serum. Preliminary result have been good, but Serum seems to be the stronger card as it allows me to dig deeper for mana.
The deck continues to surprise people with its resilience, particularly against decks which play low to the ground like affinity. The lack of Lightning Bolt in the format continues to be a boon; however, I have noticed it creeping up in lists of late. It's perfectly fine to see though, it's just something to be careful of. Mono white hatebears is another deck that has recently been trying- I don't see it with regularity in my meta, but will consider swapping out cards from the SB, for Flaying Tendrils if they continue to show prominence online.
I'll check back with some results regarding Opt. If you have any ideas regarding the current list, please let me know.
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.
By and large, I think Merfolk is still in good shape. The addition of Merfolk Trickster in Dominaria really gave our deck a solid shot in the arm, and while we still have gaps (specifically at the 1 drop slot--come on Wizards Stifle fish, that's all we want) we're holding our own. Should we take some time to assess what we may do.
I think it's safe to say there are only three cards we can really assess for modern Merfolk.
Ultimately, the fact that we can even consider 3 cards in this set is pretty generous. We may not really need (or want) any of these, but I think at least 1 of them could be worth trying out. What does everyone else think?
Cunning Trapsetter U
Merfolk
Adapt 1 1U: (if this creature has no +1/+1 counters on it, put a +1/+1 counters on it.) Whenever this creature adapts counter target activated or triggered ability.
1/1
Or, if that's too good
Cunning Trapsetter U
Merfolk Rogue
U, sacrifice Cunning Trapsetter: Counter target activated or triggered ability.
1/1
Modern Merfolk could use an actual boost in the current meta and this feels about right for me. Cursecatcher is just not cutting it anymore and Mistcaller is pretty narrowly focused.
In standard fish, however, this guy looks super solid.
So I think this card looks really decent. I could pontificate about what I think card does for us, but I think Nikachu did a good deal of that in his video and I don't think I could add much to it, except to say that I think that the removal portion of the the card is being underrated. So, I wanted to whip together a sample deck list that I think can take advantage of what this potential tool may provide.
4 Aether Vial
Creatures
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Merfolk Trickster
2 Harbinger of the Tides
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Master of Waves
1 Spellskite
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Spreading Seas
Instant/Sorc
3 Spell Pierce
4 Incubation // Incongruity
Land
4 Mutavault
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
9 Island
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Horizon Canopy
Right now, I feel like our deck needs a form of fast disruption on the draw that can slow our opponents down a bit, while advancing our own game plan. To this end I'm thinking that Merfolk Branchwalker might give us enough psuedo-draw power to help make up for the card draw we'd lose by swapping Spreading Seas for Sea's Claim.
I've been testing this theory of mine out online for the last week and I have to say that I think it's been working out just fine. However, I've yet to put it to work in any competitive environs yet. I wanted to see what people thought before I dove in. Here's my list at it stands:
// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
// 29 Creature
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Kumena's Speaker
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Master of Waves
3 Phantasmal Image
1 Merrow Reejerey
// 4 Enchantment
4 Sea's Claim
// 3 Instant
3 Spell Pierce
// 20 Land
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
3 Island
3 Mutavault
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
3 Relic of Progenitus
// 12 Instant
3 Heroic Intervention
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Negate
3 Natural State
1 Dispel
I think this list provides some needed action when on the draw. I know that many U/G lists want to run Collected Company (a significant draw indeed), but I just think that MoW is the bomb we want in the current meta.
Anyway, I just wanted to see what people thought.
Thanks
Sorry again about how long it took for me to check up on this. School is back in and I've been crazy busy with students so not much time for Magic unfortunately.
After digging into your list I think you're looking pretty good. I think there's a few things you may want to consider though going forward.
First, I think your sac outlets look okay, but they can be improved with a bit of $$ (I know, that sucks to say, but that's just the name of the game. I'm running 17 total sacrifice outlets in my deck, which doesn't seem like a lot (admittedly I could use another one), but it's pretty appropriate given that many (if not most) are repeatable and free. More on this later.
Your curve isn't terrible for an EDH deck. Yeah, you have a lot of 5 mana spells, but that's not inherently bad. Try adjusting some of your ramp spells and see what you can do. If that doesn't work, I suggest scaling back on the card draw effects that cost more than 3, and try more 2 mana tutors like Demonic Tutor, Fauna Shaman, Diabolic Intent, and Traverse the Ulvenwald. This can help you find the cards you need in a given situation.
I've noticed you don't have much in the way of recursion. I'd seriously take a look at the following cards, and consider if they are worth testing.
- Eternal Witness
- Phyrexian Reclamation
- Sheoldred, The Whispering One
. It never hurts to have a good recursion engine.How many artifacts and enchantments are you seeing in your play group? It looks like you have quite a few cards that are meant to address these, and I'm not sure if you need all that many. I run the following (or will be once Guilds of Ravnica lands)
Obviously, some of these are multi-purpose, but their primary function is to deal with non-creature permanents as effectively as possible while still providing utility elsewhere. While things like Caustic Caterpillar are synergistic, that's about the best they'll ever be. Bane of Progress however, that's something you'll get greater value out of. Good pick there.
I think you'll also want to look a bit more at cards that synergize across the whole of the deck a bit more. Things like Temur Sabertooth are nice at four mana, but you'll probably be getting more bang for your buck (mana-wise) if you play something like Jarad, Golari Lich Lord. He happens to pair very nicely with things like Doomgape[/car], Kokushko, the Evening Star, and my own personal favorite combo Lord of Extinction a.k.a. "DoomTube". You have a few guys that can get really big, Yehenni, Mycoloth, put them to use in the air too by flinging them.
While we're on the topic of combos, it looks like you could use a few "I win" buttons. I know they're not "fun" and I'm not advocating infinite combos, but something that you can rely on as a feel good for when you're behind. Mikaeus, the Unhollowed is a card I highly recommend (and worth the price), as it synergizes with everything the deck wants to do--effectively doubling every sac you make. And, it so happens that Dark Mike and Woodfall Primus pretty much just win the game on the spot. And can be tutored up in a pinch by something like Defense of the Heart or Tooth and Nail.
You appear to be relying a great deal on drawing cards, whereas my deck is much more of a toolbox. I'm digging into my deck in a ton if different ways, and I've found tutors are just a bit more reliable. They're always the cheapest cards, but they are the most effective way to get the cards you want. Tutors in my deck include:
I'm never at a loss for the card I need thanks to all of these.
While we're talking about digging into you deck, let's talk about your ramp suite. For the most part I think it looks good. Except, I really think you want a few things. First, Skyshroud Claim this is an all star. If you can, try and pick one up. Normally, I'd say pulling lands out of your deck is better than relying on mana rocks, but you may consider packing a few more in your deck just in case one of your man-land effects backfires and you need some mana. Obvious cards like Gilded Lotus and Darksteel Ingot come to mind.
Overall, I think you're working with a pretty good list. My gut tells me that if you're running into issues, it's because you feel like you don't have the right tools to deal with the board at the right time. This can be solved by addressing the balance between card draw and tutors. Up your tutor count a bit (upping your ramp can help too by thinning out your deck), and see how that feels. I imagine that you also feel like there are times when you're just a mana or two short, or half a turn behind, I think this may be due to the many mana-based sacrifice effects you're running. Your deck appears to be pretty greedy on the mana, maybe look for a few more free sac outlets like Flesh-Eater Imp or Altar of Dementia. These cards allow you to sac multiple creatures at a time, and don't cost a thing to activate. (Funnily enough, finding a few more decent ramp options can help here too).
I hope all this helps. Drop me another line and let me know, I'll try and be more punctual this go around.
Thanks for giving Savra a shot, I don't think you'll be disappointed. She takes some learning but she's really a great GB option and she will not make you a target at your table (until you playgroup realizes what she can do).
As for you questions...
--Um, tough to say. It really depends on what is happening in the match. Sometimes you'll spend a lot keeping the board under wraps, sometimes you're just gaining life. Usually though, I'm balancing my life loss with some life gain and all things tend to equal out nicely.
--I like all of those, but I'd put priorities on "free" sac outlets like the altars and Flesh-Eater Imp first. You have plenty to do with your mana, you probably don't want to spend it just gaining 1 or 2 life...which you can probably just gain through Savra's ability.
--You will almost always fare well against Commander-centric deck. Some decks like Rhys the Redeemed which spit out tokens like crazy can give you trouble, but can be dealt with. And again there is Sigarda, Host of Herons (We don't talk about her....):argh:
Reanimator decks like Karador, Ghost Chieftain can give you a hard time if you're not prepared for them. BUT if you have them in your meta, and you prepare for them, you should be fine. I can generally force sac more than they can reanimate, plus you can work cards like Leyline of the Void or Scavenging Ooze into your build (*I like the ooze) and keep them under control. If you find yourself up against a reanimator deck then keep your head down, get your engine in place, and then pounce. One of Savra's greatest strengths is that she allows you to keep the others at the table in check while you focus one opponent at a time. Kill Bill, then Tim, then Jenny. Assess your threats, neutralize them, get them margaritas afterward, they will have plenty of salt for their glass.
-- Sure, if you want to, but I'd be worried about someone blowing up the board. I have to say, I'm not a fan of Living-Land type effects, because there's usually a wrath waiting in a hand somewhere. I mean, think about the dread you'll feel when someone at the table plops a card like Oblivion Stone down on the field and just sits? I'd be sweating bullets. And remember, lands have no color, so you can't sac them to trigger your commander.
Yes, absolutely. Savra has some staples you'll really want to get your hands on. Unfortunately, some of them have climbed in price and looking at the deck now vs. when I bought 90% of it makes me cringe (but in a super happy way, I mean, who doesn't want to see their cards increase in price):)
Let's get some of those expensive cards out of they way:
1. Phyrexian Altar (all the altars, really): It's just too good, you want it. Can you live without it? Of course, but it's my primary sac outlet, and my stupid play group keeps K-griping it! God, leave it alone, Bryan!!! GRRRRR!!
2. Phyrexian Tower and High Market these are the two best lands in the deck apart from basic swamp and forest. You want one of the two on the field at all times.
3. Volrath's Stronghold This card is amazing and serves as one of my best recursion sources. It's a must in any black deck really, but particularly in decks like Savra where you can really break them.
4. Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos (or Butcher of Malakir) The fact is that Savra can get really expensive, and your deck has a plan, you need other ways to facilitate that plan.
5. 2-3 genuinely good life gain sources. If that's Grim Feast and Kokusho, the Evening Star like my list, or Exsanguinate and exquisite blood or whatever you'd like--you'll need a few sources of BIG life gain for those games where you're dumping life like crazy to keep the board clear.
That's really it as far as specific cards go. Sure, I love Necropotence and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder and Sadistic Hypnotist and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed but are they "staples"? I don't know, I mean, yeah--you'll see them in just about every Savra list (every good one anyway), but it all depends on your play group. For some, Necropotence is a super competitive card, or Sadistic Hypnotist is a d-bag card that doesn't let them play. I mean, I can see it that way, but I'll stop playing the Hippie, when Nate stops playing Narset. You hear that Nate!? I know you're reading this!
However, I would prioritize good strong ramp, draw, and tutors for your deck like:
Skyshroud Claim
Harrow
Sol Ring
Tempt with Discovery
Necropotence
Skullclamp
Greed or Erebos, God of the Deaddoes pretty well here too..
Diabolic Intent and Demonic Tutor even Sidisi, Undead Vizier is really strong
Don't sleep on good targeted or mass removal that's a broad as possible either:
Beast Within
Maelstrom Pulse
Krosan Grip
Damnation and/or Toxic Deluge Sometimes you just need to empty the board. EVERY EDH DECK NEEDS AT LEAST 3-4 good sweepers.
And, you will want some reanimation of your own:
Phyrexian Reclamation
Eternal Witness
Sheoldred, Whispering One
I hope that's helpful, I'd build the deck in proxy or Cockatrice first, see how you like it, learn the lines and then start brainstorming ideas of your own that are specific for you play group.
Good luck out there! Keep me posted on your progress!
Ely
Glad to see this has seen some traction since I climbed beneath my rock. Savra has certainly gotten some new tools for consideration. I've been out of the EDH game for a while, but now that I'm back I will try and do a better job of keeping this up to d
Would you guys like to see some game play videos? It'd be from cockatrice, but for EDH I think Cockatrice is a bit better. And hey, you'd get some commentary.
I'd love to consider a build that runs Suppression Field more prominently, possibly alongside Kruphix's Insight rather than vessel. This would make running temples much easier, but with Starfield of Nyx as my primary wincon, I think it just makes too much sense to run vessels, which are just an impossibility with suppression field.
I'd argue pretty vehemently in favor of Defense Grid in blue control heavy metas. Sure, by the time you get to turn 5-7 it's value is much diminished, but with utopia and BoP ramping me into quick mana I'm usually able to get out ahead of that.
On an unrelated note, do we have any dream reprints we'd like to see in Return to Dominaria? My heart is desperately hoping for a reprint of Enchantress's Presence I'm sure it won't happen, but a man can dream!
Wanted to take a minute to say how much this thread has helped out with my version of the deck. I've been messing around with W/X enchantments for a long time myself and have settled on this W/G Starfield build currently.
// 8 Creature
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Birds of Paradise
// 28 Enchantment
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sphere of Safety
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Vessel of Nascency
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Starfield of Nyx
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Greater Auramancy
2 Pariah
1 Story Circle
2 Cast Out
4 Temple Garden
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Stomping Ground
// 2 Sorcery
2 Wrath of God
// 6 Artifact
1 Pithing Needle
3 Defense Grid
2 Grafdigger's Cage
// 2 Creature
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
2 Nevermore
// 3 Sorcery
3 Crumble to Dust
Some of my selections I know will surprise some people but they are, in my opinion, just as solid as many of the more mainstream options for Starfield of Nyx builds. Let me explain...
Why the green splash?
It's no secret our deck is mana hungry and Utopia Sprawl is a hell of a card. Utopia sprawl and Birds of Paradise (I'll get to why BoP over Arbor Elf in a bit) allows us to power down Ghostly Prison on turn 2, which as we all know can cripple many fair aggro decks like Affinity, Humans, and Merfolk. Green also gives us a powerful draw engine in Eidolon of Blossoms, which in conjunction with Starfield of Nyx is a potent 4/4 threat that you want to send to the bin, so swinging in and blocking become significantly easier.
But where green really shines is Vessel of Nascency. Vessel is an all-star with Starfield. Vessel allows us to dig like crazy, dumping cards into the bin while giving us gas in our hand, we can recur it with starfield to dig further, but where it shines the most is in a defensive position, allowing us to turn off our enchantment army at will. Vessel is stronger over in conjunction with Starfield many other deck manipulation options. Yes, it requires 3 mana, but the ramp from Utopia and BoP assist greatly with this.
Speaking of BoP and Utopia--I'm not a fan of Tron decks, I imagine that for many of us not in W/R this is a common feeling. So I wanted a way to punish them, Crumble to Dust works pretty soundly at doing that. This is not wholly necessary, but it's been effective for me.
Let's talk about Pariah. Pariah is a solid stall card. Slap it on an opponent's Tarmogoyf and you've effectively neutered it. Slap it on a Death's Shadow, and you've turned it into a removal spell (this is also a strong lock piece against fair aggro decks when paired with Starfield). But where the card does the most work is with Heliod, God of the Sun. Enchanting Heliod with Pariah means that you've effectively locked your opponent out of winning through damage. The same thing Solemnity and Phyrexian Unlife decks attempt to do, except you can put Heliod to work popping out tokens, beating for 5 (or 4 if you have Starfield--the world's an imperfect place). Yes, Heliod can still get pathed, but outside of that, the lock is pretty strong.
looks like you've got a spicey little deck yourself. I like what you've done with the build. It looks like you're good on exile effects, but if you start to run into problems, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver looks like it'd be a fine addition to a build like this (maybe it can go in the board). You could probably go down one spell snare for it, if you wanted it in the main though. That is, if you're having issues with getting/keeping things in exile.
You're not running the soft lock combo in Eldrazi Displacer + Ulamog's Nullifier (Queller for me, but it's essentially the same idea) and exile effects which is sort of the crux of my particular build, but I can see where you made the choices you've made.
Your considerations are solid. You're right, you can spare a Delay. Although I'm not big on reciprocate myself, as I think you have more than enough in the way of removal (3 strangler and 4 paths is pretty solid and can take care of just about anything), something else in that slot couldn't hurt. If anything, I think you need to shore up some of your disruption effects, so my mind goes to something like Collective Brutality. Which is fine as a singleton, and can help out against a litany of match-ups.
What I saw that concerned me: I didn't personally have any luck with Tidehollow Sculler as he almost always got pushed, pathed, decayed, or bolted before I could process the card, making him ultimately useless. For me, I think your better off getting sure things into the exile bin and keeping them there, for this you'd be hard pressed to find something better than the following for your current build: [/card]Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, or Relic of Progenitus.
I really like your instincts on the cantrips--making sure you hit what you want to hit is really a very solid way to go. And your processor count looks fine to me at 6, but if you want to swap in another strangler and out another Nullifier you may find yourself happier. In my year plus of playing the deck, I've often found that 4 stranglers is just the way to go. Personally, I think you need a stronger finisher than flurry of small to mid-sized creatures, but if you had bad luck with Smasher then don't force it. Might I suggest a trio of Thoughtknot Seers in place of your tidehollows? Yes, your lose a bit on speed, but your top end is waaaay better, and your exiled cards are exiled forever. You curve out a bit more nicely with, cantrips on T1, counters on T2, quellers on T3, and TKS on 4. It wouldn't be hard to retool your mana base to support them: a couple temples, some filterlands, a single waste and boom you got it. Or if you're uncomfortable with that, take advantage of Lingering Souls, it really is one of the best cards in the format right now.
Ultimately, gun to my head, if you I had to make changes to your list (which may not need changes mind you), I would drop the 4 Tidehollow Scullers and put in 3 Lingering Souls and an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. I'd also drop 1 Nullifier, and put in 1 more Strangler. This would free up your board for more consistency (i.e. adding Ceremonious Rejections--no, really you need 3). That's if you don't want to change your mana base at all. IF you're willing to tinker with the mana, then that's a different story. But I don't want your deck to look too much like mine.
Keep us posted, I'm excited to see what you're working with!
Dan
P.S. Disrupting Shoal huh....Interesting. \
P.P.S. My current build
Creature (16)
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Spell Queller
1 Ulamog's Nullifier
2 Reality Smasher
Instant (16)
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Delay
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Opt
Land (23)
3 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Underground River
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Lingering Souls
In defense of Nullifier however, and perhaps we can weigh this consideration, it's a processor that can clean cards off of Spell Queller and remove Delayed threats. This is no small thing. Cards simply cannot sit on quellers or in suspend without a plan to take care of them permanently, and while Wasteland Strangler is great, Nullifier provides an additional insurance policy here. But, as you correctly said, there are times (usually in matches where I'm behind) that I'm casting it just to get a body on the field. I'm going to have to seriously crunch some numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment! I'll try and get some hard data up here as soon as possible.
Dan
*Hot damn, that's a good idea...
The deck continues to surprise people with its resilience, particularly against decks which play low to the ground like affinity. The lack of Lightning Bolt in the format continues to be a boon; however, I have noticed it creeping up in lists of late. It's perfectly fine to see though, it's just something to be careful of. Mono white hatebears is another deck that has recently been trying- I don't see it with regularity in my meta, but will consider swapping out cards from the SB, for Flaying Tendrils if they continue to show prominence online.
I'll check back with some results regarding Opt. If you have any ideas regarding the current list, please let me know.
This is the deck as it currently stands.
Creature (18)
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Spell Queller
2 Ulamog's Nullifier
2 Reality Smasher
Instant (11)
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
3 Delay
1 Surgical Extraction
Land (23)
3 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
3 Eldrazi Temple
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Underground River
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Lingering Souls
Please take the time to vote at the top of the page. If you believe the deck has potential and have ideas regarding how to make the deck stronger, please help out and post your thoughts here. Help is always appreciated.