The fewer people who want something, the less value it has as a collectable.
With newer prints available, fewer people will want the old ones.
I don't see what's so hard about this.
Price of revised duals would probably drop initially if they would be reprinted. But when more players would get into legacy, their price would start to rise again due to collectability (as they are originals) and 'pimp factor'.
It is true that Legacy and Vintage are intimidating formats for newer players but I don't think that the argument that few or no Standard players would be interested in those formats because they are too afraid of it really holds up. Magic players are inquisitive and like to learn. If they didn't they probably wouldn't have bothered trying to tackle a game with thousands of rotating moving parts and a 196 page comprehensive rulebook that needs annual updates. Once they have mastered the basics, Magic players like to play around with different formats, just look at how popular EDH has gotten, not to mention Planechase, Archenemy, Momir Basic, Pauper, etc. There are always several threads on alternate formats and even people making up their own by the hundreds.
That being said, I think that there is a lot of interest in Legacy and in my experience the real barriers are cost and a false perception that it is more luck based (new players hear about the power level and imagine that there are a lot of turn 1 kills and such). If the cost barrier were removed I think that many players would at least experiment with it, especially the casual ones.
As I previously posted, Wizards wants as many people as possible in Standard, and if not in Standard then in formats with cards with power-levels that they can print in standard such as Modern and EDH. Legacy might not steal more players from Standard than from Modern but they don't want to steal ANY players from Standard, that's their money-maker. Especially to Legacy or Vintage. Even if they all started buying the master set every few years (which there would be no incentive for once they got the staples they needed) it wouldn't make up what Wizards would be losing.
Yeah, I didn't mean that few or no Standard players are interested in Legacy or Vintage. What I meant is that I don't see how Modern players who buy some Standard cards are better for them than Legacy players who buy the Masters Edition every few years. In either case they will be of limited profit for Wizards when compared to Standard players.
Also, while the same players won't need more than a playset of a card, in 3-4 years there will probably be more players that have burned out of Standard and want Legacy/Modern cards.
Anyways, how many Standard players there are that would really prefer Legacy if they could just afford it? And do they usually stick for Standard or are they going to withdraw to EDH/casual?
Yes and no. Modern is the concession. It would be a very unpopular decision for Wizards to support no eternal formats. Some people don't like rotating formats and want something a little more stable or with a larger card palette. The big difference is that Wizards can print Modern relevant cards without breaking Standard without too much trouble. So they can keep reprinting and cashing in on Modern power-level cards from here to eternity which they can't do with Legacy/Vintage. This keeps Modern players buying current product albeit to a lesser degree. People who want an eternal format get their eternal format. People who burn out on Standard have somewhere to turn that keeps them in the game which keeps them spending at least some money on recent cards.
So, from a financial point of view Wizards wants everyone to play Standard. Since that isn't realistically going to happen, Modern is the best choice for them to support between giving players a larger card pool and forcing them to buy new cards to stay current. Extended wasn't popular enough and Legacy didn't get people to buy enough cards. Modern is the balance.
What's the difference to printing a Master's Edition every 3-4 years or so? In fact, many Standard or casual players are more afraid of Legacy than Modern due to various powerful cards and combos so I doubt that supporting Legacy would 'steal' more players from Standard than Modern.
People who play Legacy or Vintage don't need the vast majority of cards that come out. Only a few cards per block get printed that are relevant in those formats. As such those people purchase very very little current product. The vast majority of purchases that they do make are very old product on the secondary market which Wizards makes no money from. From Wizards point of view they aren't the best customers.
People who play standard need to constantly buy current product just to play the game. If they are competitive they need lots of rares and mythic rares which stores need to open lots of boxes to supply. Wizards makes a lot of money from them.
So from Wizards point of view, every customer who switches from Standard to Legacy or Vintage is essentially a customer lost. They could make a lot of money reprinting the old staples but as soon as everyone who wants them has them there is no reason for people to buy more and they have just kick-started a format that encourages people to not buy current product. Certainly there are people who wouldn't switch over entirely and continue to play both formats but Wizards doesn't want people to have their attention split, they know that their customers only have so much money to spend. Besides, some people would really enjoy it and switch over entirely and they would lose a lot of money in the long run. Historically, they are very popular formats. They don't want their Standard players to take their eyes off of Standard for one second.
That's why they don't do it and how it would harm the game. Just to be clear, I would personally enjoy the abolition of the reserve list and reprinting of the old staples but it won't happen. It isn't in Wizards interest. They would be shooting themselves in the foot so to speak.
I don't want to speak for Markers, but that is what I understood him to mean when he said that reprinting such cards would kill the game. Also, printing many of them in Standard would be silly with how high their power-level is.
Just wondering, doesn't supporting Modern have exactly the same effect, although perhaps on a slightly smaller scale? Modern players also need to buy far less new rares than Standard players.
Printing duals/Wasteland in the common slot in a standard legal environment would not only wreck standard but kill the game...
Why whould anybody buy any future product (apart from some singles)? Certain collectors would buy a set of the game but that's about it. Everybody would start to play Legacy (it's easier to maintain your decks since you only need 1 - 3 cards per year PLUS it's much more fun than Standard) and only Legacy in the competitive environment.
I think he was being sarcastic.
EDIT: Anyways, I don't think everybody would start to play Legacy if it was more affordable. Some people like to play Standard or Modern because they don't like some of the broken stuff on Legacy, or they otherwise like new design philosophy more (ie, like creature decks and aggro and hate permission, discard and LD). Plus they are also skill-wise easier to enter than Legacy as play mistakes don't lose you a game as easily.
I haven't really seen anybody play Pyroclasm as a sweeper in Legacy burn, if somebody plays a sweeper it's probably Fallout. I haven't seen black splash for bump either.
Well theeere is Martyr/Proceso which pretty mucho beats every burn deck ever but besides that your matchups are pretty even or favorable except for storm which you can beat post Sb. Volley is ok but remember it actually costs mana to cast, and is not as explosive as a fireblast after two bolts.
I wouldn't worry about martyr or sb against it since you pretty much lose against it anyways no matter what, only concern is volcanic fallout, I cannot see why you would run that card, except for the tokens matchup but even then pyroclasm is way better. And it would always be sb, also there's that one card that deals 3 to everything and each player for triple red so I would run that instead.
Other than that don't forget to post a tournament report, and good luck!
Why should I run Pyroclasm, it doesn't deal damage to players, and is sorcery speed? Flamebreak would certainly be an option in Modern as there are less counters around, but wouldn't Fallout still be better against Delver and Faeries? Also, with Fallout you can clear the board and then swing in with Marauders and Vexing Devil, which Flamebreak would kill. Anyways, I went 1-3, though I made some mistakes because I was tired.
Match 1: Death and Taxes, 2-1, Thalia was a nuisance, but Volcanic Fallout and Searing Blaze worked pretty well.
Match 2: Death and Taxes, 0-2, first game I keep a onelander and lose to manascrew. Second game I lose to Golem tokens and such which deal damage pretty fast and prevent me from utilizing creatures.
Match 3: Valakut ramp, 1-2, first and third game he is just faster (he started)
Match 4: Zooish aggro, 1-2, win first game and lose second game, third game I mana flood badly.
Yes, it'd suck for those who had recently bought a bunch of duals, but most of the people who have bought them earlier at much lower price have said it would be fine for them. Yes, the price of the cards on the reserved list has to drop to solve the problem, but if they warn about abolishing the list like several years in advance I can't see their value dropping by more than 20%-30% immediately. I'd probably sell duals I don't need right now, but keep ones I'm playing. When reprints actually happen, they would drop more, of course. (Plus what is a bigger price barrier for Modern than Goyf? I'm quite surprised if they don't reprint it within next two years)
Honestly, they really should have abolished the list two years ago when the prices weren't yet so high, but as they didn't there are now huge problems. Also, what happens if SCG in US abandons Legacy in favor of Modern when costs become too prohobitive? Prices might drop near to 2009 levels, which might be close to what reprints could do. I agree that they don't have any good options left anymore, either they hurt those who have bought duals recently, or let the likely unsustainable trend continue.
Hi guys, I'm planning to go to a Modern event tomorrow with burn.. I have played burn in Legacy, but I'm not familiar with Modern, so I'm not sure what I should expect or include in the sideboard. Anyways, this is what I have been thinking about:
Shard Volley should be OK in maindeck as there's no Fireblast, but I'm not sure what I should use instead of Sulfuric Vortex, or is lifegain a big threat in Modern?
I'm not sure what Markers meant, but I also understood that he wants the list to stay there. He's probably right that complaining (especially here) won't help and if you really want the duals, you should probably save for them. On the other hand, without complaining things won't change for better for sure, so maybe everybody should use 15 minutes couple times per year to send an email to Wizards to complain about the situation.
Anyways, of course it would suck if you had recently bought duals and they suddenly announced that they are going to abolish the list and that they will reprint duals within two months. But I think most people would be ok if they announced that the list will be abolished in 2014 or something like that and after that reprints might or might not happen, as then you would have time to sell them if you want to. It's not like Wizard's announcement to reprint Modern staples made Goyf drop in value that much so I doubt abolishing the list alone would affect their value that much.
Very few decks want to run playsets of dual lands?
Here are actual stats from the last dozen legacy events according to mtgtop8:
SCG Open Los Angeles - 1 out of the top 8
SCG Open Portland - 3 out of the top 8
Legacy @ MagicLair - 2 out of the top 8
Bologna GBLL Tappa 1 - 2 out of the top 8
BBC #1 Roma 9 - 3 out of the top 8
SCG Open Minneapolis - 3 out of the top 8
King 1 Roma - 3 out of the top 8
Liga Montserrat Legacy #7 - 4 out of the top 8
SCG Open Denver - 2 out of the top 8
Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III - 2 out of the top 8
MTG Deals Legacy - 1 out of the top 8
Manila Legacy - 3 out of the top 8
So about a quarter of top-8 legacy decks run at least 1 full playset of ABU dual lands. I guess it depends on your definition but I wouldn't classify that as "very few". More to the point, how many of those want more than 4? I don't know. I know that many of my casual decks are going to want both but I'm not a top-level competitor. A better example might be EDH where they are limited to 1 copy in 100-card decks. I can guarantee that EDH decks are going to want both.
Sorry, I should have said need to run playsets of dual lands. Apparently some of those run a full playset, but you definitely don't need to do that to get into top 8.
Anyways, lets consider the Reanimator on top 8 in SCG Los Angeles. It has 9 fetches, a set of UG Seas and 4 basic lands. It would need to cut basic lands or fetches to accommodate 8 duals. Cutting fetches is probably a bad idea, because then it's more difficult to shuffle cards from Brainstorm to deck or fetch basics when facing a Wasteland deck. Cutting basics is probably bad idea too because then you are in trouble when facing a Wasteland deck.
This only exacerbates the problem. If snow duals are ever printed it doesn't really help to make competitive-level eternal formats more affordable because the people who can afford it will then be running regular duals and snow duals and have twice the mana-fixing. Snow duals will instantly become money cards that appreciate over time and new players down the line will have yet another set of duals to buy into. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see them printed and to play with them and would gladly sign your petition, but it won't make anyone competitive who wasn't competitive before. A deck that wants 4 Underground Seas wants 8 Underground Seas.
No, very few decks want even 4 Underground Seas, and even fewer want 8. With fetches there's simply no room for more duals as they most likely want to run basics too so that they won't get messed with Wastelands. That said, it would still be much better to just do away with the reserved list and reprint the duals, and apparently most of the R&D team would want to do just that but were forbidden by upper management. Both Aaron Forsythe and Maro have said quite directly that they hate the reserved list.
That would be horrible as then it wouldn't just be about their value falling like a brick, but people who have them couldn't even play with them. I don't think any deck wants 8 duals, so just printing snow duals would be fine. Or if they are worried, they could do something like this:
Snow-Covered Tundra
Snow Land - Island Plains
If you own and control non-snow Island or Plains, sacrifice Snow-Covered Tundra.
Sure, then you couldn't play cards like Dryad Arbor with them, but most decks probably don't care.
All I say is that you can complain all you want it's not going to change anything. And if you think the Management of Hasbro/WOTC are the only ones that want to stick to the Reserved List and that if those guys retire everything will change...sure go ahead. It's a free country.
I on the other hand would start to question myself if I REALLY wanted to those cards to play Legacy or not. And if the answer is Yes...go the way EVERYBODY does it. One step at a time. But that's me...
I didn't mean that it would happen necessarily if the bosses would change, or that it would even be likely, I just meant that you shouldn't count too much on the reserved list, as it's not a legally binding contract.
Actually I have recently bought some duals as it's unlikely that they will be reprinted anytime soon, so abolishing the list would hurt me too. Sure, it would suck to lose money if they did that, but I'd still admit that it would be the right choice. The reason I'm complaining is because if things continue the way they are going, eventually something will implode one way or other. Either Legacy will suffer the fate of Vintage or secondary market gets flooded with fakes.
EDIT: Also, existence of the reserved list itself is a proof that you can make something happen (at least sometimes) if you complain hard enough.
Price of revised duals would probably drop initially if they would be reprinted. But when more players would get into legacy, their price would start to rise again due to collectability (as they are originals) and 'pimp factor'.
Yeah, I didn't mean that few or no Standard players are interested in Legacy or Vintage. What I meant is that I don't see how Modern players who buy some Standard cards are better for them than Legacy players who buy the Masters Edition every few years. In either case they will be of limited profit for Wizards when compared to Standard players.
Also, while the same players won't need more than a playset of a card, in 3-4 years there will probably be more players that have burned out of Standard and want Legacy/Modern cards.
Anyways, how many Standard players there are that would really prefer Legacy if they could just afford it? And do they usually stick for Standard or are they going to withdraw to EDH/casual?
What's the difference to printing a Master's Edition every 3-4 years or so? In fact, many Standard or casual players are more afraid of Legacy than Modern due to various powerful cards and combos so I doubt that supporting Legacy would 'steal' more players from Standard than Modern.
Just wondering, doesn't supporting Modern have exactly the same effect, although perhaps on a slightly smaller scale? Modern players also need to buy far less new rares than Standard players.
I think he was being sarcastic.
EDIT: Anyways, I don't think everybody would start to play Legacy if it was more affordable. Some people like to play Standard or Modern because they don't like some of the broken stuff on Legacy, or they otherwise like new design philosophy more (ie, like creature decks and aggro and hate permission, discard and LD). Plus they are also skill-wise easier to enter than Legacy as play mistakes don't lose you a game as easily.
Why should I run Pyroclasm, it doesn't deal damage to players, and is sorcery speed? Flamebreak would certainly be an option in Modern as there are less counters around, but wouldn't Fallout still be better against Delver and Faeries? Also, with Fallout you can clear the board and then swing in with Marauders and Vexing Devil, which Flamebreak would kill. Anyways, I went 1-3, though I made some mistakes because I was tired.
Match 1: Death and Taxes, 2-1, Thalia was a nuisance, but Volcanic Fallout and Searing Blaze worked pretty well.
Match 2: Death and Taxes, 0-2, first game I keep a onelander and lose to manascrew. Second game I lose to Golem tokens and such which deal damage pretty fast and prevent me from utilizing creatures.
Match 3: Valakut ramp, 1-2, first and third game he is just faster (he started)
Match 4: Zooish aggro, 1-2, win first game and lose second game, third game I mana flood badly.
Honestly, they really should have abolished the list two years ago when the prices weren't yet so high, but as they didn't there are now huge problems. Also, what happens if SCG in US abandons Legacy in favor of Modern when costs become too prohobitive? Prices might drop near to 2009 levels, which might be close to what reprints could do. I agree that they don't have any good options left anymore, either they hurt those who have bought duals recently, or let the likely unsustainable trend continue.
4x Goblin Guide
4x Vexing Devil
3x Keldon Marauders
2x Grim Lavamancer
Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Shard Volley
4x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
3x Volcanic Fallout
20x Mountain
4x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Searing Blaze
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Shattering Spree
1x Volcanic Fallout
Shard Volley should be OK in maindeck as there's no Fireblast, but I'm not sure what I should use instead of Sulfuric Vortex, or is lifegain a big threat in Modern?
Anyways, of course it would suck if you had recently bought duals and they suddenly announced that they are going to abolish the list and that they will reprint duals within two months. But I think most people would be ok if they announced that the list will be abolished in 2014 or something like that and after that reprints might or might not happen, as then you would have time to sell them if you want to. It's not like Wizard's announcement to reprint Modern staples made Goyf drop in value that much so I doubt abolishing the list alone would affect their value that much.
That is completely reasonable as their current price is quite ridiculous.
Sorry, I should have said need to run playsets of dual lands. Apparently some of those run a full playset, but you definitely don't need to do that to get into top 8.
Anyways, lets consider the Reanimator on top 8 in SCG Los Angeles. It has 9 fetches, a set of UG Seas and 4 basic lands. It would need to cut basic lands or fetches to accommodate 8 duals. Cutting fetches is probably a bad idea, because then it's more difficult to shuffle cards from Brainstorm to deck or fetch basics when facing a Wasteland deck. Cutting basics is probably bad idea too because then you are in trouble when facing a Wasteland deck.
No, very few decks want even 4 Underground Seas, and even fewer want 8. With fetches there's simply no room for more duals as they most likely want to run basics too so that they won't get messed with Wastelands. That said, it would still be much better to just do away with the reserved list and reprint the duals, and apparently most of the R&D team would want to do just that but were forbidden by upper management. Both Aaron Forsythe and Maro have said quite directly that they hate the reserved list.
That would be horrible as then it wouldn't just be about their value falling like a brick, but people who have them couldn't even play with them. I don't think any deck wants 8 duals, so just printing snow duals would be fine. Or if they are worried, they could do something like this:
Snow-Covered Tundra
Snow Land - Island Plains
If you own and control non-snow Island or Plains, sacrifice Snow-Covered Tundra.
Sure, then you couldn't play cards like Dryad Arbor with them, but most decks probably don't care.
I didn't mean that it would happen necessarily if the bosses would change, or that it would even be likely, I just meant that you shouldn't count too much on the reserved list, as it's not a legally binding contract.
Actually I have recently bought some duals as it's unlikely that they will be reprinted anytime soon, so abolishing the list would hurt me too. Sure, it would suck to lose money if they did that, but I'd still admit that it would be the right choice. The reason I'm complaining is because if things continue the way they are going, eventually something will implode one way or other. Either Legacy will suffer the fate of Vintage or secondary market gets flooded with fakes.
EDIT: Also, existence of the reserved list itself is a proof that you can make something happen (at least sometimes) if you complain hard enough.