Fact or Fiction has downsides for both control and combo, especially in edh. The problem is the opponent can choose to dunk your answer or your combo piece. Glimmer of Genius gives you dig and a bit of card advantage, and instant speed if your deck can abuse it. Careful Consideration is good imo but it merely cantrips when cast at instant speed, though you can utilize the graveyard.
Gonti is interesting. He of course counters things like Vampiric Tutor, though you need to activate him instant speed. Otherwise he kind of just draws a card, though he doesn't even let you use lands. If you abuse him he's fine, but if you are playing a combo/synergistic deck then you are likely wanting to draw your own cards and not an opponent's. There's always the chance of stealing their combo piece though
Instead of simply banning these powerful artifact-ramp & cheap-tutor cards, could we (RC, MTGS, someone authoritative) publish some official analysis of the power cards in EDH, with recommendations on what one should house ban based on what kind of a power level your group wants?
Something like:
Level-0: No new bans, unban "oops i played this card" cards
Level-1: Ridiculous 0/1CMC artifact ramp, 1/2CMC unconditional tutors banned
Level-2: Ridiculous combo pieces banned, some more tutors banned
Level-3: Many combos banned, most tutors banned, ban "oops i played this card" cards, only super happy fun times allowed
This way people can have a resource to point their friends to on which cards should be banned for what kinds of games the group wants. Also makes the more apathetic players more willing to accept bans if they come from a global authoritative source.
Of course it will be a challenge to make these recommended banlist tiers, but again they are recommendations for house rules: they aren't going to devastate the game.
1) So I deserve to be shut out of the game because I'm mono color?
2) I think we can agree that most of those answers kind of suck. Most are expensive. Half only answer creatures. The board wipes destroy your own stuff just to deal with one ridiculous card. Steel Hellkite needs to hit the Iona player, which is hard with an Iona in the way.
There's also the question of how W/R/G are going to be able to get these cards in their hand for most games.
3) No optimal player is going to free you unless they must.
4) Entomb -> Reanimate? I've seen this done to death; usually it's just them being polite that Iona doesn't appear.
I would compare Iona to other cards on the banlist: Biorhythm/Coalition Victory: "When a card's power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly in excess of both it's mana cost AND power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]. Coalition Victory is a strong candidate for the first principle.. it is a single card which can suddenly end interesting games with little difficulty, due to the presence of 5 color generals which the player is guaranteed to have access to".
Like these cards, Iona completely shuts players down unless they immediately have an answer. Sure, blue and black can answer Biorhythm, but the other colors cannot nearly as easily. In fact everyone can (usually) answer it with Jester's Cap, yet the card is still banned. Why? Because it's not fun. Iona is nearly the same thing: if you can't answer it now, you are out of the game (but only if you play mono color). So why is one banned and not the other? Sure you can keep your permanents with Iona, but that doesn't justify to me letting a card shut out players in a casual format.
The politics argument doesn't convince me either: if players are playing optimally, they will never save you if they can help it unless they know they can deal with you. If we are assuming people are nice than why are we banning cards like Trade Secrets... Sundering Titan: Using the RC's justification for ST: "...it simply created undesirable game states. It was too easily both intentionally abused [shutting down a mono color player] and unintentionally game-warping [I need to shut down blue. Sucks that you are mono blue but I need to choose blue so I can get through counterspells]...". Sundering Titan is also creature which is the easiest to deal with; more colors can deal with creatures than any other type of card. But it's still banned. It's also near in CMC to Iona (8 vs. 9). You can even abuse Iona in the same way by blinking it to change colors. Why one over the other?
I feel like Iona should be banned theoretically, but they won't because she isn't abused enough. Is she abused often for you guys? Even my more competitive group won't use her except occasionally for a laugh.
Hmm if you want your deck to be top 75% competitive you are going to need to make a lot of changes lol.
Where to start...
Tutors - A competitive deck needs tutors: they are wildly overpowered in EDH. You need them to combo as fast as other decks as well as answer their decks in time to stop them. You can play broken tutors which will make opponents worried (Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Grim Tutor), or you can play "reveal" tutors if you mainly just use them to answer problems on the board (Enlightened Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Dimir House Guard, Night Dealings, Stoneforge Mystic).
Protection - If you want to win with combo (particularly not infinite combo) you need to protect your stuff. The best combo protection in the game is extraction effects (Tidehollow Sculler, Castigate, Thoughtseize, Praetor's Grasp, etc.). They let you not only remove counterspells/instant speed destruction preemptively, they let you see that player's hand which helps you know when you can combo. Mind Slash/Corpse Traders/Sadistic Hypnotist are permanents that let you ruin people's hands: but they want you to sac things rather than blink things.
Removal - Assuming you add tutors, you are still going to need a couple generic answer cards to problems on the board (Unexpectedly Absent, Vindicate, Oblation).
You are also going to have to add more consistency as I suggested above if you want the deck to be more competitive. But yeah the harsh truth of EDH is that for competitive play you have to be able to deal with stupid "1-card-combo" decks: and that means less pet cards in your deck.
Just remember you can always make another deck for competitive play if you like this deck.
From my perspective I would say that it more "filled the casual niche" than "killed the old casual formats".
When I started playing again during New Phyrexia, playing Magic was meeting up and throwing some 60-card decks at each other, with a wide disparity in power level. If we played more than 1v1 with 60-card decks, it was never fun to me: many decks simply could not function as multiplayer decks.
With the Commander products being printed it basically defined with all the playgroups I've been with what "casual" was. With the Commander products was a definition of "what EDH was supposed to be" (which varied strongly between groups). It pretty much scooped up casual play and put it in one bucket. Ideal? No, but it was an improvement from my perspective.
Make no mistake I disagree with the RC on many things, but I feel they are also stuck in a way. They have to appease everyone because that's what Commander did to casual magic. And if we agree Commander was a net gain as I describe above, then let the RC be without hate.
And of course it's easier to try and fix the banlist/rules than create a new format: EDH was a small thing that no one knew about for a long time. But looking back on me complaining on this thread over the years, I find complaining here isn't the way to evolve casual Magic.
Of course debating is fun, by all means continue the discussion. But don't expect to be able to shape all of Commander.
In terms of new formats: I always liked Horde mode (PvE Magic). That would be an easy way for people to enjoy some Magic without having to worry so much over pesky things like balance
I only see 4.5 cards that give you card advantage. I would add more (Syphon Mind, Ancient Craving, Ambition's Cost, Disciple of Bolas)
Your deck is also pretty mana hungry. I'm only seeing 5 mana ramp cards; considering you don't have much card draw I think you need more ramp to play your stuff(Liliana of the Dark Realms, Thran Dynamo). Fleshbag Marauder/Slum Reaper seem like what you could use.
I'm assuming you are playing a casual environment? That's cool, but this deck won't hold up to abuse fyi.
I feel like there should be some official announcements on what EDH really is.
It is not balanced.
It is not competitive.
It does not make sense mechanically.
EDH is never going to radically change, and it's not going to die any time soon, and that's ok.
It's a casual format that exploded in popularity to fill the casual niche (where Planechase, Horde mode, etc. have all failed). EDH is popular because people want casual formats, but a lot of people are also sick of it.
I feel the real (albeit challenging) answer to people's grievances with EDH is to make/play new casual formats. I feel that if someone were to blog about new formats, they could make some waves happen in the MtG community.
Just something like having special EDH decks that fit into an "Extended" banlist, or a biannual selection of random blocks, could make people happy (but not at all balanced ).
I have plenty ideas on how EDH works and how its rules could be changed to make it more consistent/competitive/entertaining/challenging; we all do. But EDH is bigger than all of us now, and I now understand one of the responsibilities of the RC better.
What you need to understand about your deck is that it's not only a really slow combo deck, but it's also a deck that is very dependent on your general. There's a number of ways you can improve this:
Lords: You have a bunch of changelings, which will all work with all the lords in the game! Sea Gate Loremaster, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Supreme Inquisitor, Lord of the Unreal, Shifting Sliver, etc.
Blink: Mass blink cards are cheap ways to trigger the combo with Reaper King. Planar Guide, Legion's Initiative, Equilibrium, Parallax Wave, Cloudstone Curio, etc.
Reanimation: An alternative to blink is reanimation. I don't build these kinds of decks so I don't have suggestions
Protection: As your deck is so centered on Reaper King, you need to make sure he both gets out and stays out. Delay, Voidslime, Perplex, Asceticism, Swiftfoot Boots, etc.
Mana Acceleration: Especially as it looks like you don't want to use expensive lands, people would scream for you to add more ramp to your deck. This is an easy way to improve the deck without removing most of your creatures. You've got some cheap accel in Explosive Vegetation etc. Mana rocks are the other way to get you more mana (e.g. Coalition Relic) that you can add more of. People will tell you that you need more land in your deck, and I agree in this case as you don't have much card draw in your deck.
Card Quality: I would argue only one of the creatures in your deck is any good on its own (Mirror Entity), everything else is just there to slowly combo with Reaper King. To combat this, you can: add creature buff cards to the deck (e.g. Collective Blessing), run creature tutors (e.g. Fauna Shaman), add lords (see above), add into-play abilities (e.g. Yisan, the Wanderer Bard), or simply replace them.
For improving the early game, it depends on what your opponents are using. If they are using creatures board wipes always help (and are especially good if your creatures are in exile from a blink). There are some one-sided tempo cards that can be very strong (Profaner of the Dead, Cyclonic Rift, etc.).
If you are losing to spells then that gives you even more reasons to run counterspells (as they also make sure your general gets out and stays alive). Extraction cards also can blow opponents out (Praetor's Grasp, Jester's Cap).
I've got a Reaper King deck that has been my favorite for a long time. I first brainstormed it as a changeling deck like yours, but I changed it to a 5-color blink deck that only uses Reaper King to combo with Conspiracy/Rite of Replication if the card happens top show up. Cheers.
Bounce/Blink your Scarecrows.
I can't find any themes in your deck as it isn't sorted. What do you want your deck to do? You can just put random combos in the deck if you don't want a theme.
If I give a Flailing Soldier I control hexproof, can opponents use his abilities on him?
I guess my underlying question is: who owns abilities, the owner of the card or the activator?
I like Head Games and Ill-Gotten Gains. Mind twist/Mind Shatter/Monomania are also strong. People don't like playing thoughtseize and the like, but I find them necessary if you aren't running blue. Theres also Mind Slash/Corpse Traders if you want to abuse tokens.
Last Rites is also a very powerful card. You have to discard cards yourself but it completely neutors any hand early in the game (only 3 mana).
Something like:
Level-0: No new bans, unban "oops i played this card" cards
Level-1: Ridiculous 0/1CMC artifact ramp, 1/2CMC unconditional tutors banned
Level-2: Ridiculous combo pieces banned, some more tutors banned
Level-3: Many combos banned, most tutors banned, ban "oops i played this card" cards, only super happy fun times allowed
This way people can have a resource to point their friends to on which cards should be banned for what kinds of games the group wants. Also makes the more apathetic players more willing to accept bans if they come from a global authoritative source.
Of course it will be a challenge to make these recommended banlist tiers, but again they are recommendations for house rules: they aren't going to devastate the game.
Every mono white deck needs more card draw (god I hate this color
2) I think we can agree that most of those answers kind of suck. Most are expensive. Half only answer creatures. The board wipes destroy your own stuff just to deal with one ridiculous card. Steel Hellkite needs to hit the Iona player, which is hard with an Iona in the way.
There's also the question of how W/R/G are going to be able to get these cards in their hand for most games.
3) No optimal player is going to free you unless they must.
4) Entomb -> Reanimate? I've seen this done to death; usually it's just them being polite that Iona doesn't appear.
I would compare Iona to other cards on the banlist:
Biorhythm/Coalition Victory: "When a card's power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly in excess of both it's mana cost AND power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]. Coalition Victory is a strong candidate for the first principle.. it is a single card which can suddenly end interesting games with little difficulty, due to the presence of 5 color generals which the player is guaranteed to have access to".
Like these cards, Iona completely shuts players down unless they immediately have an answer. Sure, blue and black can answer Biorhythm, but the other colors cannot nearly as easily. In fact everyone can (usually) answer it with Jester's Cap, yet the card is still banned. Why? Because it's not fun. Iona is nearly the same thing: if you can't answer it now, you are out of the game (but only if you play mono color). So why is one banned and not the other? Sure you can keep your permanents with Iona, but that doesn't justify to me letting a card shut out players in a casual format.
The politics argument doesn't convince me either: if players are playing optimally, they will never save you if they can help it unless they know they can deal with you. If we are assuming people are nice than why are we banning cards like Trade Secrets...
Sundering Titan: Using the RC's justification for ST: "...it simply created undesirable game states. It was too easily both intentionally abused [shutting down a mono color player] and unintentionally game-warping [I need to shut down blue. Sucks that you are mono blue but I need to choose blue so I can get through counterspells]...". Sundering Titan is also creature which is the easiest to deal with; more colors can deal with creatures than any other type of card. But it's still banned. It's also near in CMC to Iona (8 vs. 9). You can even abuse Iona in the same way by blinking it to change colors. Why one over the other?
I feel like Iona should be banned theoretically, but they won't because she isn't abused enough. Is she abused often for you guys? Even my more competitive group won't use her except occasionally for a laugh.
Also pls ban 0/1CMC mana rocks
Where to start...
Tutors - A competitive deck needs tutors: they are wildly overpowered in EDH. You need them to combo as fast as other decks as well as answer their decks in time to stop them. You can play broken tutors which will make opponents worried (Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Grim Tutor), or you can play "reveal" tutors if you mainly just use them to answer problems on the board (Enlightened Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Dimir House Guard, Night Dealings, Stoneforge Mystic).
Protection - If you want to win with combo (particularly not infinite combo) you need to protect your stuff. The best combo protection in the game is extraction effects (Tidehollow Sculler, Castigate, Thoughtseize, Praetor's Grasp, etc.). They let you not only remove counterspells/instant speed destruction preemptively, they let you see that player's hand which helps you know when you can combo. Mind Slash/Corpse Traders/Sadistic Hypnotist are permanents that let you ruin people's hands: but they want you to sac things rather than blink things.
Removal - Assuming you add tutors, you are still going to need a couple generic answer cards to problems on the board (Unexpectedly Absent, Vindicate, Oblation).
You are also going to have to add more consistency as I suggested above if you want the deck to be more competitive. But yeah the harsh truth of EDH is that for competitive play you have to be able to deal with stupid "1-card-combo" decks: and that means less pet cards in your deck.
Just remember you can always make another deck for competitive play if you like this deck.
When I started playing again during New Phyrexia, playing Magic was meeting up and throwing some 60-card decks at each other, with a wide disparity in power level. If we played more than 1v1 with 60-card decks, it was never fun to me: many decks simply could not function as multiplayer decks.
With the Commander products being printed it basically defined with all the playgroups I've been with what "casual" was. With the Commander products was a definition of "what EDH was supposed to be" (which varied strongly between groups). It pretty much scooped up casual play and put it in one bucket. Ideal? No, but it was an improvement from my perspective.
Make no mistake I disagree with the RC on many things, but I feel they are also stuck in a way. They have to appease everyone because that's what Commander did to casual magic. And if we agree Commander was a net gain as I describe above, then let the RC be without hate.
And of course it's easier to try and fix the banlist/rules than create a new format: EDH was a small thing that no one knew about for a long time. But looking back on me complaining on this thread over the years, I find complaining here isn't the way to evolve casual Magic.
Of course debating is fun, by all means continue the discussion. But don't expect to be able to shape all of Commander.
In terms of new formats: I always liked Horde mode (PvE Magic). That would be an easy way for people to enjoy some Magic without having to worry so much over pesky things like balance
Your deck is also pretty mana hungry. I'm only seeing 5 mana ramp cards; considering you don't have much card draw I think you need more ramp to play your stuff(Liliana of the Dark Realms, Thran Dynamo).
Fleshbag Marauder/Slum Reaper seem like what you could use.
I'm assuming you are playing a casual environment? That's cool, but this deck won't hold up to abuse fyi.
It is not balanced.
It is not competitive.
It does not make sense mechanically.
EDH is never going to radically change, and it's not going to die any time soon, and that's ok.
It's a casual format that exploded in popularity to fill the casual niche (where Planechase, Horde mode, etc. have all failed). EDH is popular because people want casual formats, but a lot of people are also sick of it.
I feel the real (albeit challenging) answer to people's grievances with EDH is to make/play new casual formats. I feel that if someone were to blog about new formats, they could make some waves happen in the MtG community.
Just something like having special EDH decks that fit into an "Extended" banlist, or a biannual selection of random blocks, could make people happy (but not at all balanced
I have plenty ideas on how EDH works and how its rules could be changed to make it more consistent/competitive/entertaining/challenging; we all do. But EDH is bigger than all of us now, and I now understand one of the responsibilities of the RC better.
You can copy card draw and other things W/R lacks with Fork, Reverberate, Reiterate
Another mention is Decree of Justice which you are usually casting as a cantrip.
Adding a couple more mana rocks along with some more card draw should give you the consistency you are hoping for.
Lords: You have a bunch of changelings, which will all work with all the lords in the game! Sea Gate Loremaster, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid, Supreme Inquisitor, Lord of the Unreal, Shifting Sliver, etc.
Blink: Mass blink cards are cheap ways to trigger the combo with Reaper King. Planar Guide, Legion's Initiative, Equilibrium, Parallax Wave, Cloudstone Curio, etc.
Reanimation: An alternative to blink is reanimation. I don't build these kinds of decks so I don't have suggestions
Protection: As your deck is so centered on Reaper King, you need to make sure he both gets out and stays out. Delay, Voidslime, Perplex, Asceticism, Swiftfoot Boots, etc.
Mana Acceleration: Especially as it looks like you don't want to use expensive lands, people would scream for you to add more ramp to your deck. This is an easy way to improve the deck without removing most of your creatures. You've got some cheap accel in Explosive Vegetation etc. Mana rocks are the other way to get you more mana (e.g. Coalition Relic) that you can add more of. People will tell you that you need more land in your deck, and I agree in this case as you don't have much card draw in your deck.
Card Quality: I would argue only one of the creatures in your deck is any good on its own (Mirror Entity), everything else is just there to slowly combo with Reaper King. To combat this, you can: add creature buff cards to the deck (e.g. Collective Blessing), run creature tutors (e.g. Fauna Shaman), add lords (see above), add into-play abilities (e.g. Yisan, the Wanderer Bard), or simply replace them.
For improving the early game, it depends on what your opponents are using. If they are using creatures board wipes always help (and are especially good if your creatures are in exile from a blink). There are some one-sided tempo cards that can be very strong (Profaner of the Dead, Cyclonic Rift, etc.).
If you are losing to spells then that gives you even more reasons to run counterspells (as they also make sure your general gets out and stays alive). Extraction cards also can blow opponents out (Praetor's Grasp, Jester's Cap).
I've got a Reaper King deck that has been my favorite for a long time. I first brainstormed it as a changeling deck like yours, but I changed it to a 5-color blink deck that only uses Reaper King to combo with Conspiracy/Rite of Replication if the card happens top show up. Cheers.
I can't find any themes in your deck as it isn't sorted. What do you want your deck to do? You can just put random combos in the deck if you don't want a theme.
Feel free to delete
I guess my underlying question is: who owns abilities, the owner of the card or the activator?
Ex: Flailing Soldier equipped with Mask of Avacyn
Thanks.
Last Rites is also a very powerful card. You have to discard cards yourself but it completely neutors any hand early in the game (only 3 mana).