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  • posted a message on Return to Amonkhet ideas
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Technically they are already eternals, they are coated with Lazotep and are clearly undead.

    They just didn't make it through because the set had no space for them.


    Maybe Scarab god but the other two don't quite look lazotep coated. And while they do look undead in story they never call them such but I wouldn't rule it out.

    And since the plan was for all five gods to end up dead and Bolas gods to remain (un)alive, Hazoret being alive might have forced Bolas to settle with only settling for four god eternals.

    Quote from Mullerornis »
    Ideas for the uncorrupted remaining gods:

    Locust God = GU god of fertility. If it has to be a flyer, maybe something like Wadjet or a sphynx.

    Scarab God = WB god of the hosts. Falcon headed.


    My hope is to actually see all three pre-Bolas as a single grixis colored card, gives us a look at what they looked like and maybe what they where gods of but also a way to keep the names (sadly) lost.

    I do like your idea thought have having each god keeping a color they shared with Bola and gaining a color outside of him and how with Hazoret you'd still have color balance in the gods.

    We can guess two of the the was ram headed and falcon headed for the minotaur and white aven. Maybe a human patron as well so all the races had a go they where reflected in? A sphinx could also work with the human head but a animal body.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Return to Amonkhet ideas
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from 5colors »
    I'm also struggling to see a beneficial locust god. Scarabs are fine, they are beneficial beings in original egyptian mythology as well, but locusts? Locusts always stand for being something negative. I suppose he could be a fertility god, maybe.


    Well Bolas said he twisted them into his tool (even warping what animal they had for a head) so I do think they would have different purposes. The two thoughts I've seen (and liked) is the locust god might have been a fertility/agriculture god and scarab god was once the guardian/protector of the real afterlife since Bolas had a cruel fondest for making a twisted parody of amonkeht culture (scorpion god would be a healing/medicane god for this example).

    I like the idea that the scarab god used to be in charge of the celestial, including moving the sun (like scarabs are said to do in egyptian mythology). This would also explain why Bolas corrupted him, because he needed to create/transform the second sun to serve as the trigger for his return.
    Could probably still be tied to the afterlife.


    Funny enough the person who came up with some of these ideas was a egyptologist who was talking about how the scarab god seems to have taken some inspiration from Khepri who was an aspect of Ra who represented of the morning sun and renewal/rebirth Ra took each day he escaped/reborn from the underworld. The egyptologist guessed this was referenced with scarab god leading the eternals. So the scarab gods being a god of the afterlife/renewal/rebirth as well as being a solar deity would very much fit from the source material. If the scarab god is as speculated hawk-headed gods and is restored could also play into the original myths with.

    In the corrupted mythology it was also said Bolas made Hazoret with the same magic as the second sun so might be she's the true god of the sun, though as there are two suns makes sense to have a god for each.

    Quote from OathboundOne »
    I seem to remember reading during War of the Spark that Hazoret and her followers had returned to reoccupy the ruins of Naktamun? I could be wrong? But I swear I remember that being mentioned.

    EDIT: Yeah, from the MTG wiki:
    Hazoret gave them her spear, reassuring Samut about the condition of Amonkhet's population: the goddess and the mortals brought the last two corrupted gods away from Naktamun; they have repopulated the city and created a new Hekma.


    Now, they could always retcon that bit, and I'm not sure what good a new Hekma is against the Locust god, considering he was able to (in fact twisted for the purpose of) destroy(ing) the last one. So, I suppose they could use the plotline that Hazoret's followers are TRYING to repopulate Naktamun, and detailing all the struggles they face. That could serve as the primary focus of the story, with other themes like rediscovering the past and such to flesh it out.


    Thye said the corrupted gods are a lot less powerful without Bolas there to instruct them. Chances are even during the hours they where acting on pre-programed magical commands and can't really adapt unless Bolas gives them new commands.

    I do wonder why Bolas didn't make them eternals as well.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Return to Amonkhet ideas
    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from 5colors »
    I also can see the Bolas gods going 50/50 if they can be restored or are too far gone and are a monsters of the desert now.

    I'm on the fence about this. On the one hand, I'd love for the locust and the scarab god to be redeemed. On the other hand I'm genre savvy enough to doubt that. Unlike the other 5 gods, the three corrupted gods were changed pyhsically, which usually means they have become irredeemably corrupted, see Brisela and, well, basically most fantasy stories.


    This my thoughts to a T

    I'm also struggling to see a beneficial locust god. Scarabs are fine, they are beneficial beings in original egyptian mythology as well, but locusts? Locusts always stand for being something negative. I suppose he could be a fertility god, maybe.


    Well Bolas said he twisted them into his tool (even warping what animal they had for a head) so I do think they would have different purposes. The two thoughts I've seen (and liked) is the locust god might have been a fertility/agriculture god and scarab god was once the guardian/protector of the real afterlife since Bolas had a cruel fondest for making a twisted parody of amonkeht culture (scorpion god would be a healing/medicane god for this example).
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Return to Amonkhet ideas
    I'm leaning on the people of Amonhet exploring and re-discovering pre-Bolas history (what happened before Bolas, what the curse is ect). While Hazoret is freed from Bolas now, not sure if they stayed she had all her memories of the past back. I also can see the Bolas gods going 50/50 if they can be restored or are too far gone and are a monsters of the desert now.

    The Chandra comic also confirms there are Eternals still left running on pre-programed orders from Bolas. Similar to the eldrazi on Innistrad and Zendikar I could a few eternal creature cards as another danger of the desert.

    I also wonder how the mummies that are hinted to have grown a sense of self are gonna turn out if that plot point isn't dropped.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Flisch »
    There are six cards referencing poachers...


    Ah okay my mistake.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from soramaro »
    Using easy-to-understand words is one thing, but using them thoughtlessly can damage your worldbuilding because things begin to lose their meaning the second the reades tries to look beneath the surface. OK, let's say that "poacher" is just a term for "bad hunter". What separates them from the good hunters? As far as we know, there isn't such a thing (or have I missed something?). Monster hunting is seen as something that is, without exception, done for sport, to collect trophies or the narcisisstic need to be "part of a myth" (Dark Bargain). However, other cards indicate that monster parts can in fact be turned into useful tools (Flycatcher Giraffid) and or can be consumed as food (Bushmeat Poacher).

    If you take a minute and think about the conditions humanity lives under on Ikoria, it seems almost crazy that hunting monsters for food isn't seen as a normal thing. In an absurdly hostile environment that requires humans to build their cities under volcanic shelf (and manage lava flows to create walls of lava for defense) and build flying balloon cities, where do you have room for any sort of agriculture? And if you don't have any crops, where do you get your food from? Monster meat seems like the obvious choice here. The rampaging feline serial killer may be scary, but keeping yourself fed is definitely higher on the prioritiy list


    Well for one poacher could have no real meaning on Ikoira this could be just a on off card that again uses a word to set the right tone for flavor.

    Second your kinda hit on the reason for this being brought up. People are saying Vivien being against hunters is unreasonable since they are getting food when its not really gone over. All references to hunting seem to be for the sport hunters. WhileBushmeat Poacher might be a food hunter but also likely doing it for profit on the black market and likely not providing the city with needed sources since the lore (and not just from Vivien) doesn't suggest that.

    Its likely humans can and will eat monster meat but thats never brought up on how Vivien feels on that.

    It's still a nitpick, but you can definitely add flavour by paying attention to how people of your world talk about things. There could be an interesting "hunting for sustenance VS hunting gone too far" conflict here.


    Sure but thats not something this story was into exploring.

    As for your example, I think simply falling back on the term "non-believer" would be the easiest way around things. It's the most old-timey feeling and fantasy-friendly of the expressions while still being very easy to understand.


    The issues was once you have provable gods its not a question of belief but if you worship them and atheist technically means you don't believe in gods. Funny enough it was the non-genre liking people who leaned into not liking the use of atheist while the people who read more fantasy/genre work leaned more where more okay with it.

    Quote from Flisch »
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Honestly kind of absurd to worry too much about words not being "fictional" enough. Unless they invent a whole new language it's going to have to use English or some other Earth language, and if it's in an entirely made up language it can't be read. Simple logic dictates that therefore some degree of familiar words are needed, and at that point it's just quibbling over where exactly the dividing line is.

    The issue is that Ikoria has no reason to distinguish "good" hunting from "bad" hunting. Either hunting is discouraged because "monsters are sacred" or they are not. If the former, then why not simply call them hunters?

    For Ikoria it's a baffling choice of words and the fact that it shows up so often implies that it is part of the world building and not an errant word that found its way into a random flavour text. This points to Ikoria's worldbuilding being rushed even further.


    Poacher is used for one card though? And from everything shown monster hunting isn't a encouraged and thus "bad" hunting. The reasons for really why aren't given as you said.

    On Nexus thought it was talked on Ikoira suffering more so from being only one set to introduce the plane as well as it being bottom-up and thus the world building started based on working card mechanics than flavor and making a world. So might not be rushed as so much one set isn't enough to flesh out a bottom up world for its introduction.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Manasurfer »
    Quote from 5colors »
    Cool so again nothing suggests Garruk changed his views on humans in general jus t him opening up to the Kenriths family.
    This is infuriating. You are undermining the importance of his decision at the end of Wilder Quest.

    Option 1: Follow my new friends. (Kentrith Twins)
    Option 2: Pursue person who wronged me. (Oko)

    Garruk following the twins is important as hes opening up. I been trying to explain this to you over and over. Garruk growing up since his 10th birthday lived a anti-social life where his only friends were animals. Him opening up to humans is very important character growth to how he views civilization.

    And his fathers advice that he took was for him to stay away from those that could talk and also from civilization, for he should expect deceit. The fact he is following his new friends to a possibly civilized area, is massive character growth.

    You might have been right that nothing changed about his character, if he pursued Oko instead. As Oko is the prey for his hunt. Oko detests civilization. So Oko is going to stay away from civilized areas.

    Following the twins is the equivalent of the good ending in a video game.
    Following Oko is the equivalent to the bad ending in a video game.

    You saying that Garruk not following his abusers, like Oko, and choosing to follow his actual friends had no change on his character growth. Do you know how messed up that actually sounds?


    And I disagree this had any impact on his view towards humans/society. Its character growth but I don't see Garruk suddenly living in cities or going out of his way to be nice to any non-kenriths right away.

    Quote from 5colors »
    No? Again hunters aren't the most liked by other humans and as we see might be hired as mercenaries but not something intricate to their ways of life. If you mean the military, Vivien says a few times people have a right to defend themselves as long as they don't kill unless they need too and even uses them to show the differences with how the hunters are seen.
    Stop being obtuse. The thing you are trying to disagree on, is that the humans eat monster meat. I proved with Bushmeat Poacher that there is an economy that runs on selling meat to eat. Even their flavor text reads:

    “If you’ve never feasted on Zagoth terror-pig, I got the best price you’ll find.”

    FEASTED as in eat.

    And all the wild animals are considered monsters. Even the ones with a singular type like bird or cat still appear more monstrous than a normal counterpart. Like take Garrison Cat, its just a cat, but its got tusks and was only kept as a honorary monster hunter due to the fact that it ate the mice. Its still viewed by the Drannith city as a monster.


    No what I was saying your point Vivien being horrible since she's against people needing to hunt for food for surveil isn't touched. All hunter related stuff on Ikoira reference is in references to sport and black market hunting.

    And really I feel like this has run its course since you keep running up points that I and/or the text doesn't agree with over and over, so I guess agree to disagree on the two mono green beast mages who trust in nature and animals more than humans being too similar feeling.

    Quote from soramaro »
    The one thing that doesn't make sense to me about the whole "perception of monster hunters" thing in Ikoria is that the concept of poaching exists at all. Poaching is illegal hunting, and is often associated with the dwindling of endangered animal populations. Neither of these two apply to Ikoria. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on wildlife protection among the human population, so there shouldn't be any societal rules that that ban monster hunting. Also, this is a world where monsters rule and the humans are in the clear minority - it's not like the hunting being done is pushing the monsters towards the edge of extinction.

    I can understand Vivien seeing monster hunters as poachers (the PW guide is from her PoV after all), but the cards that reference poaching in the card name or flavor text feel more like transplantations of the real-world "poaching = bad" stance than something that makes sense to Ikorians.
    Quote from user_938036 »
    Quote from soramaro »
    The one thing that doesn't make sense to me about the whole "perception of monster hunters" thing in Ikoria is that the concept of poaching exists at all. Poaching is illegal hunting, and is often associated with the dwindling of endangered animal populations. Neither of these two apply to Ikoria. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on wildlife protection among the human population, so there shouldn't be any societal rules that that ban monster hunting. Also, this is a world where monsters rule and the humans are in the clear minority - it's not like the hunting being done is pushing the monsters towards the edge of extinction.

    I can understand Vivien seeing monster hunters as poachers (the PW guide is from her PoV after all), but the cards that reference poaching in the card name or flavor text feel more like transplantations of the real-world "poaching = bad" stance than something that makes sense to Ikorians.
    This is a very good point that never gets the proper spot light. The word Poacher as we understand it shouldn't exist on a world like Ikoria.

    Much like the word werewolf which means manwolf but has taken on a new meaning where in the common assumption is that "were" has some connotation to change or some other negative connotation. If a world does use a word that we use they should find a way to give an explination for where that word came from and why its used. As an example a certain light novel has Vampires that are called vampires on a world that isn't earth. But they explain that the name Vampire comes from the words of that world "vamp" a derogatory word for people and "Ires" a classification for all animals that suck blood such as mosquitoes. While not a perfect explination it is nice to see some people try to explain the presense of words that have no business being used on different worlds.
    Quote from Mullerornis »
    I'm assuming its translated as "poachers" in the sense that its more to the point than "illegal hunters", but yes. In Ikoria monster hunting is discouraged because drawing the wrath of serial killers like Snapdax is a bad idea, not because monsters are endangered or that society at large is monster-positive (SKysail aside).


    Often when writing a fictional world you have to balance between using words that your audience understand and whats true to the world. As Mullerornis said poachers is used as a shorthand for "illegal hunter" to give us the audience a quicker way to figure out this card.

    I had a similar talk in a writing workshop where people didn't like using the term atheist for a nonbeliever in a fantasy world with real gods and thought apantheon or antipantheon would be a better term, while the against argument was that it might be a another term for someone needs to learn long with the other fantasy terms going on and a more familiar word might be better used here.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Shoot! I forgot likley the most questioned story of Trynn and Silvar!

    Trynn is/was a member of Drannith military until she bonded with Silvar. She loves Drannith but views the world in the "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" and will take people she views as too weak out the walls where Silvar wait. The monster gets a meal and Trynn believes Drannith is stronger overall.

    Quote from leslak »
    Garruk doesn't kill his hunts (before the veil curse), he was pretty much a druid that bonded with beasts he defeated(from what we know).


    See thats what I'm assuming as well which again feels similar to Vivien.

    Quote from Manasurfer »
    Quote from 5colors »
    Now this is really going into baseless speculation. We don't know when they reach Kylem or if thats where Garruk is nor nothing would suggest that he would stay with them in the city once he sees they are doing ok as he still gonna wantlook for both Oko and Liliana.
    It could be baseless, it could be canon. We don't know if battlebond-plane was the next place they visited or they visited like nineteen other planes along the way. There story is left up in the air. Just like Lukka's and just like Calix. Calix is pursuing Elspeth, but where does Elspeth go? We don't know because we didn't even get a novel.


    Cool so again nothing suggests Garruk changed his views on humans in general jus t him opening up to the Kenriths family.

    Umm look at the cards name, its a poacher and thus likely selling the pig meat on the black markets.
    Okay so they selling pig meat, possibly monster pig meat, and if it is being sold to people why would people want it? Would it be for eating? If so then they do eat wild game.


    Same reason people want to eat any exotic animal and able to pay black market prices. But once again nothing showing how Ikoria or Vivien views non-sport hunters who hunt to survive. If any humans do its likely bonders who Vivien gets right along with.

    Ummm thats what happens?
    The monsters are still there. Which means groundbased travel is still dangerous. Which means monster hunter work is still a desired job. The only exception is bonded animals. To Vivien that would still be awful.


    No? Again hunters aren't the most liked by other humans and as we see might be hired as mercenaries but not something intricate to their ways of life. If you mean the military, Vivien says a few times people have a right to defend themselves as long as they don't kill unless they need too and even uses them to show the differences with how the hunters are seen.

    And a great way to show how Vivien and Garruk could have approached the conflict yet both just play with the concept nearly the same.
    If the story is done nearly the same, then you migth as well have any green planeswalker take Vivien's place. The assumption that you make is that because of the book's ending, the journey to that ending must be still the same.

    Which applies the same way as a coin toss of heads or tails. The actual book lands on heads. You state the result still lands on heads even if it was flipped different. I state it lands on tails. Which there is also the possibility of the coin landing on its side, which means neither is right.


    I mean I kinda said that too (and in the past in general) with their being too many beast master walkers and not many mono-green walkers, thought not all of them have issues with humans and find more comfort in animals which was a factor with the bonders joining in the at the end.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    We got some minor lore on some the commander 20 legends from Gavin and Emily Teng (creative member on C20);
    https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1250461387190603777

    -Gavi isn't a traditional bonder but was imprinted on by a pack of baby dinosaur cats after their mother was killed by a monster and Gavi now takes care of them as if they her own children.

    -Xyris basically hunts and stalks Skysail regularly, too fast for the city to react when it dives in and snatched prey. It also brings other snake friends with it as well.

    -Kalamax is connected to the weather and unknown who influences who. Legends says one time Kalamax caused a massive storm that ended up causing Shark Typhoon to happen.

    -Brallin met Shabraz when the shark flew near lava brink and as sky sharks aren't a common monster Brallin thought it would be a fun trophy. The two fought for awhile and by the end of it they ended up bonded.

    Quote from Manasurfer »
    Quote from 5colors »
    And again nothing supports Garruk changing his view on humans just him growing to care for the Kenriths. He offers to look for the twins since as he (and we) know they now can travel the multiverse which can be dangerous. Nothing suggests he is going to return to society or embraced it just his pack now includes the Kenriths.
    If assuming the Kenriths went to the battlebond plane first, and Garruk followed and stayed with them, hes technically out of his element and comfort zone. Even on Ravncia he only briefly visited Jace for information.


    Now this is really going into baseless speculation. We don't know when they reach Kylem or if thats where Garruk is nor nothing would suggest that he would stay with them in the city once he sees they are doing ok as he still gonna wantlook for both Oko and Liliana.

    The Ikoria hunters aren't noble hunters gathering food for humans, they are game and sport hunters who hunt for a black market network and the hunters we saw aren't above killing people if it would get them a profit. They are barley even welcomed into the cities showing even other humans disagree with what they do and their methods. Nothing is touched on any hunter who hunt to strictly to feed (as the cities are said to have farms) and considering the hunters is putting what they get on the black market I doubt they helping the truly hungry. Nothing is touched on hunters who need to hunt to survive.

    On that note...do the Ikoira normally eat monster meat? As far as I'm aware Lukka and his gang left the monster they killed and nothing is brought up on the body. Lukka even gives an oral report on what the monsters was and now it acted which doesn't seem like they bring in the bodies to study. Lukka mentions wanting chicken and rabbit meat with his meal with Vivien (not chicken-rabbit but as separate animals) implying there is a degree of normal-ish meant but nothing about monster meat.

    Also...maybe I'm dirty minded but ummm an exotic animals horn for medical reason sounded like a aphrodisiac references :p which imo don't think animals should be killed for.

    And in an other article (as talked about before) had Vivien also praising Skysaild for trying to avoiding monster attacks so honesty that blaring inconsistency making it hard to figure out that point.
    We do actually have an exmaple of them eating monsters. Bushmeat Poacher. Assuming a Terror-Pig is just a pig with also the nightmare type.

    I think that while the Drannith people might still have their stock of animals that they keep safely for eating, those in less fortified areas would be eating what animals they could find, monster or no.

    As for the horn, who knows if its meant to be an aphrodisiac or not.


    Umm look at the cards name, its a poacher and thus likely selling the pig meat on the black markets.

    Again nothing on any hunters who need to hunt to eat is ever brought up. I'd assume there are but whenever hunters are brought up its in the context of sport hunting.

    While I might be wrong I find it hard to believe Vivien can't save an animal in the arc bow without it dying and again out of character to have Viviens made thing go against her nature without it being brought up as a character conflict.

    And as the bow is made of a mix of Smaragdi and Nura magic so again I don't see the group that Vivien was born into being okay with the bow only working on dying animals as well. Seems similar to Kiora bonding with the essences of sea monsters to make powerful aether copies.


    Okay so Vivien comes respects the Jirina the basically war lady of the height of human civilization on Ikoria. Would you think that if Vivien got to know a techno mage who thinks nature is icky who ...idk lost their home plane or was a victim of bolas she couldn't show respect and form a form of bond with them? Does every character need to have a meaningful connection to people they at a level fundamentally disagree with to show they are able to have character bonds and growths?
    I think Jirina Kudro is the wrong one to look to. As while she does allow monsters inside of the city, Vivien's reasoning of her being compassionate yet also finding it strange for opposing the monsters before Lukka's coup. The idea should be that while some monsters are allowed in the city ,specifically bonded ones and the least harmful kinds, there are other monsters that the city needs to protect themselves if the monsters are not properly kept control of, equivalent to wild wolves or tigers that are still deadly to travelers on the ground.


    Ummm thats what happens?

    Also the reason we talk of the two green mages and their connections is because their connections actually influence how they view the Civilization vs Wilds view. As again while Garruk is leaning towards civilization on the spectrum, Vivien still leans more closely to Wilds.

    For an example, Nissa Revane used to slightly lean towards Wilds, but still had her feet planted in Civilization because of her people The Joraga. She met Chandra, and joining Chandra on their travels led them to civilization a lot. Eventually Nissa and Chandra split and now Nissa leans more heavily towards Wilds as she wants to tend to her plane.


    And a great way to show how Vivien and Garruk could have approached the conflict yet both just play with the concept nearly the same.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Manasurfer »
    Quote from 5colors »
    Nothing suggests the Kenrith fixed Garruks hating/distrust of humanity. Its just the fact the Kenrith family has earned his respect. Again going back to the point you brought up, like Vivien, Garruk would have probity not trust two royal teenagers who's kingdom was built on driving back the wilds, same as how Vivien has shown affection and such for humans who she respects. And nothing say pre-cursed Garruk wound't have grown fond of the Kenrith either if given the chance to know them, not that its not character growth but not something Garruk is able to do that Vivien isn't.
    If nothing changed as you imply, Garruk would have pursued Oko and tried to run him down just like his other targets. Instead he chose to follow two people he wished to protect because of an act of generosity. As Garruk was caught in this perpetual cycle of hunting those who wronged him. Him choosing for himself to break that cycle and return to society with a newfound purpose shows growth.

    You have to think about it as Rehabilitation. Garruk was effectivelly separated from society at an adolescent age of 10. Him trusting the twins and wanting to go toward civilization with them is him overcoming his notion that civilized society is wicked. And its not that far of a stretch as Garruk was part of a town for 10 years and grew up amongst other civilized people.


    And again nothing supports Garruk changing his view on humans just him growing to care for the Kenriths. He offers to look for the twins since as he (and we) know they now can travel the multiverse which can be dangerous. Nothing suggests he is going to return to society or embraced it just his pack now includes the Kenriths.

    Your really saying "humanity is evil for exploring nature" Vivien would willing let any animal dye so she could use it for the arc bow instead of trying to save it? We even see an example of this on Ikoria where she let the dinosaur that attacked her and Lukka after they had hurt it enough to make it run even thought its size and power would have been great for the arc bow.
    No, humanity should be able to hunt and enter the forest. Vivien Reid acts unreasonable when people need to hunt. She ridicules the Skysail nomads in one of her journal entries for speculating the worth and possible medicinal purposes of the horn from Yorion, Sky Nomad. Its even made explicit by the novel that the animals are not stable enough to be classified into a species outright due to the erratic nature of the mutations.


    The Ikoria hunters aren't noble hunters gathering food for humans, they are game and sport hunters who hunt for a black market network and the hunters we saw aren't above killing people if it would get them a profit. They are barley even welcomed into the cities showing even other humans disagree with what they do and their methods. Nothing is touched on any hunter who hunt to strictly to feed (as the cities are said to have farms) and considering the hunters is putting what they get on the black market I doubt they helping the truly hungry. Nothing is touched on hunters who need to hunt to survive.

    On that note...do the Ikoira normally eat monster meat? As far as I'm aware Lukka and his gang left the monster they killed and nothing is brought up on the body. Lukka even gives an oral report on what the monsters was and now it acted which doesn't seem like they bring in the bodies to study. Lukka mentions wanting chicken and rabbit meat with his meal with Vivien (not chicken-rabbit but as separate animals) implying there is a degree of normal-ish meant but nothing about monster meat.

    Also...maybe I'm dirty minded but ummm an exotic animals horn for medical reason sounded like a aphrodisiac references :p which imo don't think animals should be killed for.

    And in an other article (as talked about before) had Vivien also praising Skysaild for trying to avoiding monster attacks so honesty that blaring inconsistency making it hard to figure out that point.

    But that still doesn't change she is basically a Ghostslaver.

    The rules for her bow are: "The Arkbow can make "snapshots" of a dying creature, transforming its memory into a spirit of the animal in its prime. The ritual involves tapping the Arkbow three times against the floor, resulting in an intense white light surrounding the caster. After a fourth tap, the artifact opens into metallic bark and branch, flowering at intervals. After it splits down, the jag of light absorbs the spirit of the dying animal."

    Sure she lets one animal get away, but there are others shes added that she could have saved instead. She enslaves souls of the dead to do her bidding by weaponizing them. Which is a far cry from the Abzan and their Kin-Trees or the Temur and their Frozen Ancestors, as the spirits are still people who willingly stay connected to the material world to offer wisdom and protect the living. The animals offer no wisdom, they are merely arrows in a quiver, they don't have a say of what they should be fired at for they merely exist. And between the two, while the Abzan culture is not listed as a shamanic tradition, yet the Temur and their "Whisperers" as they are known are considered one.

    Vivien Reid is classified as a Shaman, someone who works with the primal and spiritual forces, yet her magic stemming from the arkbow is more akin to necromancy than anything druidic like the Smaragdi order which Vivien Reid was apart of and helped make the bow. Which necromancy is a sub-classification of magic for a Wizard and is considered part of civilization. A shaman is a hybridization of the druidic and wizarding teachings in the MTG lore.


    While I might be wrong I find it hard to believe Vivien can't save an animal in the arc bow without it dying and again out of character to have Viviens made thing go against her nature without it being brought up as a character conflict.

    And as the bow is made of a mix of Smaragdi and Nura magic so again I don't see the group that Vivien was born into being okay with the bow only working on dying animals as well. Seems similar to Kiora bonding with the essences of sea monsters to make powerful aether copies.

    And maybe this where the confusion comes from a bit. I'm mostly comparing Vivien to what he knew of pre-cursed Garruk and even still as said I don't see Garruk bond with the Kenrith as him now not hating humanity just finding humans he feels like he can now trust. I think they could grow to be more different and the last two books has show a better split (and shown with your papa wolf/lone wolf comparison) but still I think their roles and story potential is too similar, even more so now they have had Vivien growing out of the the possible hero/villian role they where maybe going with and Garruk losing his curse and return to mono-green.
    The difference comes from who they respect. Vivien respects Gavi, a bonder who protects animals from humans who wished to harm the dinosaur-cats. Garruk respects the Kenrith twins who are adventurous, and while the twins were raised in a society prefer civilization over the wilds, Garruk remembers the kindness. That is where Vivien and Garruk diverge.


    Okay so Vivien comes respects the Jirina the basically war lady of the height of human civilization on Ikoria. Would you think that if Vivien got to know a techno mage who thinks nature is icky who ...idk lost their home plane or was a victim of bolas she couldn't show respect and form a form of bond with them? Does every character need to have a meaningful connection to people they at a level fundamentally disagree with to show they are able to have character bonds and growths?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Manasurfer »
    The reason we know how Garruk behaved is from the comics "The Hunter and the Veil", The Veil's Curse", and "Wild Son". The narrative makes it explicit of what type of person he actually was before being cursed.

    The first death we see caused by post-corruption Garruk causes is actually to one of his own beasts, and this is because the beast is sickly and needed a mercy killing. The second death we see is Garruk taking an innocent man, bringing them to foul monsters for information, then leaving him there. The reason being that the man had a special talisman placed on him by Garruk, a two-way radio if you will, so he could hear the monsters talk even if the man died. Note this is all we ever are given for Garruk's descent, prior he never was this destructive. He almost killed Jace, but that was again the Curse starting to have a hold on him as he was snapped out of it and realized his folly, giving Jace advice that the map lead to Zendikar before walking out. Even as a teenager who wanted revenge, he ordered his beasts not to kill unless ordered, which takes great maturity and strength to not want a whole town dead for past events that occurred seven years ago.

    The Kenrith twins are actually a huge step for Garruk as he doesn't loathe humanity. To set who he was in as an adult in motion, he was a scared boy who was forced to flee into the woods at his father's behest. Then he heard on the same day his father slowly dying over that two-way talisman. One of the last lessons given to Garruk as a piece of advice "And Garruk, remember this most of all... anyone who can speak can lie. Expect Deceit." and then with his last words saying "I love you, son.".

    Which is why the kindness of the Kenrith's and him wanting to protect them is far bigger growth. Also those words from a father to an adolescent could result in a warped teenager when they grew up, as that advice could have been interpreted to do more evil than just kill the Sheriff only.


    Nothing suggests the Kenrith fixed Garruks hating/distrust of humanity. Its just the fact the Kenrith family has earned his respect. Again going back to the point you brought up, like Vivien, Garruk would have probity not trust two royal teenagers who's kingdom was built on driving back the wilds, same as how Vivien has shown affection and such for humans who she respects. And nothing say pre-cursed Garruk wound't have grown fond of the Kenrith either if given the chance to know them, not that its not character growth but not something Garruk is able to do that Vivien isn't.

    Garruk is different from Vivien, hes actually a natural bonder. Vivien only takes the souls of dying animals and stores them in her bow as a memory. Its similar, but one actually cared about trying to keep living animals around them while the other only stores the souls of the dead to use as a weapon. Which is where the difference of Garruk and Vivien really comes to a head.

    Lets take a Titanoth Rex if both were to have visited Ikoria, Garruk would actually try to tame it, resulting in forming a powerful bonds with it. Vivien would let the same animal start dying then capture its soul in her bow to use later.

    Which for Vivien sounds a bit similar to a green necromancer. Heres a fun tidbit on necromancy in MTG's lore, there is a specific types of necromancers on Grixis and one of them is called a "Ghostslaver" and these necromancers specialize in "binding ghosts as servants". And its not that far in a leap of logic that she binds animal ghosts to use as servants.


    Your really saying "humanity is evil for exploring nature" Vivien would willing let any animal dye so she could use it for the arc bow instead of trying to save it? We even see an example of this on Ikoria where she let the dinosaur that attacked her and Lukka after they had hurt it enough to make it run even thought its size and power would have been great for the arc bow.


    Which is more of how Vivien is differnet from Garruk. If given the same advice by a dying loved one, and then seeing what they did, you could attribute the advice as to why someone like Vivien did what she did at the zoo run by vampires by killing both the innocent, neutral and corrupt. While this same advice for Garruk was more about staying away from places of active civilization. He only entered civilization once to get just revenge for his father pre-curse. He entered civilization more post-curse when in desperate need of finding Liliana.

    To give you an accurate comparison using animal tropes: Garruk is the Papa Wolf, Vivien is the Lone Wolf. One is protective of their pack, the other is a drifter on their own. Garruk used to be the same as Vivien, a Lone Wolf, but the Kenrith's kindness changed who he is as a person in a more profound way.


    And maybe this where the confusion comes from a bit. I'm mostly comparing Vivien to what he knew of pre-cursed Garruk and even still as said I don't see Garruk bond with the Kenrith as him now not hating humanity just finding humans he feels like he can now trust. I think they could grow to be more different and the last two books has show a better split (and shown with your papa wolf/lone wolf comparison) but still I think their roles and story potential is too similar, even more so now they have had Vivien growing out of the the possible hero/villian role they where maybe going with and Garruk losing his curse and return to mono-green.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Manasurfer »
    Quote from 5colors »
    @Vivien v Garruk- Idk I have issues with Vivien being to similar to Garruk since the only difference is I *believe* Garruk does kill his hunts (though the example we saw he bonded with a monster not sure if he ended up killing it or healed it after). We only seen mono-green Garruk a few times as well, his origin story with his father being killed and him summoning beasts as an adult to kill the Sheriff who killed his dad (and he had the beasts destroy the town as well...so basically the first story we see with Vivien) and then him trying to kill Liliana after he killed one of his bonded beasts. I mean you could literally swap out Vivien out for Garruk for those stories, heck you could swap out Vivien for Garruk in this story. Also add in with Garruk retuning to being mono-green card-wise they will be really similar, thought thats a whole other issue they share with other walkers.
    While Vivien is similar to Garruk for how they destroyed civilized areas and harmed people, Garruk didn't kill innocents when going after his father's murderer. The worst his tamed Kavu did was break spears and knock a soldier away with its head. The only time we see property damage is when his Wurm broke through the earth of the prison and killed the Sheriff. And the reason for both the Wurm and Kavu not killing innocents is that Garruk gave a direct order to not kill unless he ordered it.

    However unlike Garruk, both Vivien and Lukka killed more than just one person in their destructive ways. Garruk only started to kill and harm more people when he was corrupted by Liliana and mind-controlled by Oko. While post-purification Garruk is more willing to kill now than he was previously based on his own past experiences, he is also more in control of himself than he was before.

    Swapping Garruk for Vivien also creates differences in the story. Garruk is a more protective figure than Vivien is in characterization, applying to both animals and humans. Vivien is less protective of humans and more towards animals. If anything, Garruk would be more into trying to find the biggest and strongest monster he could find on Ikoria and bond with it to add to his collection.


    I'd say your assuming too much on mono-green Garruk. Nothing says he didn't kill people and gain one of the the first big thing he does is go after Liliana for killing one of his bonded beasts. He might have not hurt innocents like Vivien did on Ixalan, but he was willing to seems to kill people who crossed him or his beasts.

    I also think the protective nature Garruk has the Kenriths isn't showing him being protective of humanity in general. The story goes over how the twins had show him kindness, with Will even risking his life to save him from drowning, and how their love for their parents reminded of his love for his father and mother. He still dislike people its just the Kenriths where able to earn his respect, Vivien is shown to be similar to the humans who gain her respect.

    And looking through Ikoira what did Vivien do that would have been all that different from what Garruk would have done give him the same motivations. While your right he likely would have gone after monster to bond with, we saw Vivien did similar things with the arc bow. Vivien was a very passive character in the story with Lukka being the protagonist villain driving the events. Her role was basically the beast mage who helped Lukka to the Ozolith, joined up with the bonders to lead them help fight against Lukka and track down a walker who was corrupting the crystals.

    Again replace Garruk with Vivien here and I see similar results going on and again I dislike how similar to each other the two are in what roles they can fill in stories and cards.

    By the way, I know this isn't maybe the proper thread but... Am I wrong or on the Wizards site story page there isn't even a page for Eldraine and Ikoria? And that Ravnica and Theros' planes pages aren't updated...


    It hasn't even really even been updated since War of the Spark since Teyo, Wanderer, Kasmina and Dev only have pictures on the walker page, the pictures don't link to bios. Seems like the shifted to novels/ebooks means they haven't bothered to keep up the web section, which is a shame.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from Zazdor »
    @OathboundOne: It is true that the Planeswalker antagonist in Ikoria does not have to be one of the known Planeswalkers from War of the Spark, but to have a mysterious antagonist and then not reveal him seems strange. Also, Oko and Garruk both sat out of the War of the Spark (I think that was clarified in the opening chapter/prologue), so Oko is out as an option (though otherwise, I'd say he could have been an interesting choice).

    @5colors: I think the trend of a Spark flaring in each set provides us with a potentially recurring character to link to each plane. I guess it does also provide some characters who weren't connected to the War of the Spark, but I think it's more of an expected pattern to connect the players to the planes--and continually introduce new characters who may have staying power (sales-wise).


    Nothing in the Eldraine books hints about the War in anyway, the only thing said about Garruk came from Maro (and hasn't been supported by creative so if its canon is debatable) that Bolas kept Garruk away so that he wouldn't kill any walkers before they could be harvested and I wonder if this was just Maro trying to calm the Garruk fans knowing he was coming in the set after next.

    Another bone for thought is its mentioned a few times that Drannith restrictive and many human live less safe places for the freedom it brings. Okos big thing is hating rulers and such who restrict freedom of others.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Imagine having the brain worms to still think Weisman did anything besides accepting the job to write two novels.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Story
    Quote from OathboundOne »

    One thing to note, is that word of god is the planeswalkers who got cards in War of the Spark weren't ALL the planeswalkers who were present on Ravnica, so it's entirely possible that this will be a new character we've never met before, but who was "present" on Ravnica for War of the Spark.


    Hmmm Oko also seems to know of Liliana, which could have been a hint to him having been through the War (if its not a new character).

    This also could explains the three sets in a row we had the "new" walkers spark at the end, I was wondering at the trend but its a way to have why X character wasn't in the War.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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