I don't think this deck can run Rest in Peace. It destroys the value we get from Voice, Souls, and Finks. Graveyard decks can be a bit of a problem, but Relic/Crypt work better because they don't neuter our deck too. Hell maybe even Anafenza since their decks don't do much without those creatures in the yard.
I've got a list I'm pretty happy with. There is one slot though in the mana base that I am not quite certain on. It's the 3rd Gavony Township. I really don't want to run more than two, and I'm not sure what other land would be best in that slot. Here is my list:
I've been pretty happy with not running Razorverge Thicket in the current mana base. Having the extra room for multiple Temples and Tombs has made the mana base more flexible all around. Still though, I am not sold on 3 Township, and feel like it should be fine as a 2 of. Much of the deck is heavily reliant on having different colors of mana, and running 3 colorless lands seems like too much. I've thought about possibly running Treetop Village, Sunpetal Grove, Brushland, or even an extra Stirring Wildwood. Is there anything else that fits this deck well? Should I just stick with the third Township?
With running the dorks the mana is a lot smoother. I personally like having 3x Township because we want to be sure to draw it if the game goes long. In addition, some decks like Abzan and Hatebears will bring in land hate against us, so having multiples becomes ok. It doesn't come up too often where I get color screwed by having two. Still, if you don't like having 3, I definitely think you should run some utility land in its place. Vault might be ok, or Ghost Quarter if you want anti-tron tech, but if you are still concerned about your colorless mana count I would go with another Stirring Wildwood.
Round 3: 2-1 against Bogles. I was very lucky game 1, as my opponent didn't draw many Auras and I was able to beat him with Voice of Resurgence, Smiter and Wilt-Leaf. Game 2 I lost because of Silhana + 2x Ethereal Armor and Daybreak Coronet. I kept a very interactive hand with like 2x EE and a Decay and some mana dorks, but it wasn't enough. Game 3 he simply drew something like 5 Hexproof but only 1 Aura, so I was able to win through that. I think this matchup is in our favor post board as we get access to Zealous Persecution, EE and Nature's Claim.
Do you like Zealous Persecution here? With all their auras it seems really bad, but I can see how it is good if you take out a hexproof dude and a Dryad Arbor or something. Is this a card that is play/draw dependent?
Yea... about the dorkless version of the deck...
[stuff]
Lol your a salty one. In this forum, they mean 95% win rate not in tournaments, but just versing other decks, one after another. Some people just have a weak meta. 2nd, yes Liege has been around for ages and been used by many, but it has only ever seen competitive level once so far.
Well, I mean, he has a point. The goal of the Tier subforms here is to have threads for established decks that have put up competitive tournament results...the discard version has not done that. Search on MTG Top8 or SCG and you will find nothing. I think the post last page from someone saying they Top 8'd a PPTG is the only result I've seen. Mostly all there is are Emracool's suspect claims that he has an unbelievable winrate despite also having a bunch of 50/50 matchups.
Frankly I'm not sure if it belongs in here. It's a clear variant, but if the thread exists to paint a picture of the Tier 2 decks people are playing, then the Discard Liege deck doesn't fit until it grows in popularity or starts consistently placing. And it's getting harder and harder for good discussions to occur with people split on deck choice. Barely anyone talks about the dork version in here, the actual one that got Top 8 at a PT and got this thread. I think it's a good deck, but Emracool if you want to convince people it's as great as you say it is, you have to go out and tear up PPTQs, SCG Opens, MTGO Dailies...just aggressively posting about it only goes so far. Sell your grinder friends on it, get THEM to play the deck or write articles about it, take a big group of people all playing the deck to States this weekend. That's got to be better than this.
Control is down because the format is new, but also the format is speeding up. We used to be the midrange deck with a lot of game against Control, but with their new tools it is not so certain. We'll have to see. But as the midrange deck that beats other midrange decks, we are in a good spot. It is basically that Sultai deck that is troubling (and even then just postboard, G1 was a stomp), and the hate that Sidisi brings to Abzan could be an issue.
I think there was a deck at the SCG Open this week that ran a bunch of Den Protectors. I hear in general the card is backbreaking for control. The main thing is, is this a card that fits into our game plan? The utility seems large (best case scenario you get some Raptors back and rebuy a Genesis Hydra or Whisperwood) but the body is kind of small. Gets past Elspeth I guess.
Also souls makes us worse against sweepers like anger which one of the sstrengths of the deck is is it isn't This is why it goes in the board. .
Not really...you just don't flash it back immediately if you think they have a sweeper. When they do you can get two spirits for cheap. That's "don't overextend" 101. Plus if your have more disruption you can pick those out of their hand.
One thing I want to try is either Dromoka in the flex slot (in this case, replacing Temur Sabertooth).
Do NOT forget the lesson of GP Miami. The one-of Temur Sabertooth is not a "flex spot." It is an intentional deckbuilding concession that Devotion decks are popular and that a lot of times and especially in the GW mirror, whoever draws their Temur Sabertooth will win. I would cut something else. Probably the 4th Mastery.
Another thing I was wondering is what you guys typically sideboard out in various matchups. Against aggro, for example, I imagine the Fleecemane Lions come in, but I'm not sure what to take out. Mana dorks? I'd love some sideboarding tips.
Elf is fine, but I generally cut some Voyaging Satyrs against red-based aggro because it likes to get burned. Also cut a few Masteries. It is a powerful card but very slow and having multiple doesn't help that. Generally you will only need to get a decent-sized lifegain activation once to get a cushion that will let you stabilize, activate again, and get out of reach. Genesis Hydra is also pretty awkwardly slow and I may cut some of those before anything else. It is just abysmal until you get to 6 mana, where it finally becomes "okay." X=3 might be better now that we have Raptor in addition to Fleecemane and Courser, but I think I'd have to see the math. I've been burned enough that I'd rather be casting even an Arbor Colossus for 5 mana, and MUCH rather have Surge of Righteousness.
Abzan Aggro is a different story. They are slow enough that you can leave in dorks, but still should trade them out for Lion. I like to cut Caryatid here. It isn't blocking anything and even though Satyr is removable, I am happy if they are using removal on it. I actually like trimming a Mastery or two: if you expect a lot of enchantment removal, you are either stranding it in their hand or forcing them to use it on your Courser, clearing the way to stick a Mastery. Nissa is ok here if you can protect her and get Rhinos out of the way. Less good if they also have Tasigur. I may still trim the Gen Hydras.
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Looking at the Invitational matches, it seems like there are a lot of flyers that are problems for the deck. In every single loss against Reid Duke's Sultai deck, the GW player lost because of Dragonlord Silumgar. That is just brutal. We can't just hope for them to not draw it because Sidisi is stupid good and tutors. Because of this, I think it is time for Arbor Colossus to show up in the 75 again. I am thinking of cutting a Mastery (putting it in the side) and a dork for 2, and finding a spot for one in the side. That gives me a total of 10 dorks (4 elf, 3/3 split Caryatid/Courser), which I think is still good enough.
Has anyone tried this version of the deck? It attracted me because of the toolbox aspect and the green-ness of the deck. The toolbox lets you be very versatile while not affecting the density of Elves too much, and a lot of times Collected Company is just actually the nuts. Chord lets you run bullets; you have instant-speed Twin hate at x=1,2, and 3, or you can just go get an Ezuri or Elvish Archdruid EOT and win. It's sweet.
But I don't have much experience with elves and am trying to learn how to elf, particularly when it comes to sideboarding. I know this is based off a more aggressive build, but what elves generally come out in each matchup? A lot of the elves seem pretty integral to the deck. Is it ok to cut Heritage Druids, against Twin and Junk, or is that something that you rarely want to cut? It just seems kind of awkward unless you are doing silly things with Nettle Sentinel, but at the same time the mana ramp can be huge when you need it. The list just seems super tight when it comes to replacements.
Twin, amulet, tokens, TRON, living end, ad nauseam, storm, and boggles.
It's very good against Twin. They can't really counter it because if they do you just flash it back. At the very least, I find it better than Finks where the lifegain doesn't matter and it will just get stonewalled by Deceiver Exarch. The tokens can also block Pestermite and Clique.
Amulet...again, it's better than Finks. What is Finks doing for you here? Titans attack for 16 damage at a time and lifegain doesn't help at all vs Hive Mind. Souls can fly over a slow Titan if they really need to.
Tokens it's not great against but still good. Between our own Souls, Decay for Anthems, Gavony, Liege, and anti-tokens cards like Zealous Persecution, we have the tools we need to fight the air battle.
Living End, AN, and Storm are all decks I don't have a lot of experience with but I can see how it would be bad. However they are so fringe and Souls is so good against other decks I think it's worth the spot in the maindeck. Especially in your list you have more disruption for these matchups where Souls is poor anyways.
Boggles I don't have much experience with either but it does buy you more chump blocks if they don't have a Rancor out for some reason. I don't think many of our creatures are amazing in this matchup but Souls at least has evasion and makes Voice tokens huge.
Have you played in any major events with the deck like SCG Opens, PPTQs, GPTs, or even MTGO events with the deck? Just wondering. In any case I would be interested in seeing you stream with it and see matches play out with commentary so if you do could you record it on Twitch or upload to youtube for archival purposes?
Sorry, but when don't you want Lingering Souls? It's a great card in almost every matchup, especially with a Liege or active Gavony. It's pretty sub-par in Burn since the other 3-drops are so much better, but that's the only one I can really think of where I don't want to see it and it gets sided out.
Anyway I went 4-3 at the GP Trial tonight. Lost against Blue moon due to mana screw and 2 4C gifts deck both running 3 maindeck Blood-Baron of Vizkopa. I just had no way to deal with it.
Yeah our options are basically to block it with a huge Bird or Hierarch, or race it with Spirit tokens or get lucky with a Thoughtseize...not exactly the best solutions. If they keep playing it then maybe try running Beast Within. Scooze can also attack through it if it gets big enough, and it's definitely maindeckable.
I still think RW Aggro (and Jeskai) are tough matches. Were there any GW vs RW matched featured over the weekend?
There were not, however there was a GW vs. Mardu Aggro featured, the latter deck is basically RW splashing B for Crackling Doom and I believe that is it. You can watch it here but it is not very informative as Osyp gets the nuts draw G1 and G2 Brad Nelson has ridiculous mana flood.
From talking to some people on RW, I think its matchup vs devotion strategies in general is mostly even. I think their above average and nuts draws beat ours (T1 Wild Slash, T2 Seeker, T3 Outburst into "free" Stoke, T4 Chain is just a huge beating...), but our average and mediocre draws beat theirs. Especially if we are talking about the hyper aggressive version that no longer plays Stormbreath.
Mastery helps a lot with life and card advantage. The question is what matches does this enchantment improve? Can the life gain and manifest blockers buy enough time to beat heroic? Can it buy enough cards that UB control struggles? Does it steal devotion mirror? Does it overwhelm Abzan aggro/midrange/control better than GR? I'm not clear on any of this.
Maybe, yes, yes, and yes. I am just not sure on Heroic as that deck has been falling off in popularity lately. The manifest blockers help in theory, but in practice it doesn't matter as much if the Heroic guy has Stratus Walk or Aqueous Form. But if both players have average draws and the Devotion player can start gaining life, I think they will be able to outpace the Heroic deck's damage output unless it is combo. Which, by the way, I think are the major enemy of the deck.
Once Control prepares for GW devotion and adds more perilous vault and more drown in sorrow in the SB I think we will see GW devotion do worse. I truly think GW devotion just caught the metagame by surprise. We will see with the next big tournament tho.
Perilous Vault is pretty good but I think people are forgetting the downsides of it as well. It is played a turn in advance and gives us the opportunity to prepare for it. In addition, often times they have to tap out to crack it, in which case we can deploy a Whisperwood/Genesis Hydra/Mastery that we have held in hand. We also have a brief opportunity to destroy it. Anger and Drown are much more problematic as they can come down during our setup phase and slow the deck down by a lot.
Yes, but the turn 1 and 2 Titan/Hive Minds also require Summer Bloom. Summer Bloom by itself can still ramp you into Turn 3 or Turn 4 Titans, but an amulet by itself doesn't do a whole lot. Steven Speck also claims that Summmer Bloom is the real threat in the deck. http://themeadery.org/articles/giants-giants-giants-become-unstoppable
Also with regards to Punishing Fire, why can't it come off and Grove of the Burnwillows be banned instead? Isn't the entire problem the interaction between those two?
In doing so you are killing off RG Tron completely.
ALSO Punishing Fire does next to NOTHING without Grove, so its banning an entire deck out and bringing in jank that wont see any sort of play because its bad without Grove.
Yeah, it's the best option since no other RG deck doesn't care about life totals, but there's tons of lands in those colors already in the format so I'm not sure why making the mana slightly worse would completely kill the deck. I'm sure Tron could make do with Stomping Ground, Copperline Gorge, Karplusan Forest, or Mossfire Valley without too many problems.
Even if Punishing Fire would be jank and not see play, it's got a unique effect and Grove is just a land that taps for mana while breaking Punishing Fire apart.
Yes, but the turn 1 and 2 Titan/Hive Minds also require Summer Bloom. Summer Bloom by itself can still ramp you into Turn 3 or Turn 4 Titans, but an amulet by itself doesn't do a whole lot. Steven Speck also claims that Summmer Bloom is the real threat in the deck. http://themeadery.org/articles/giants-giants-giants-become-unstoppable
Also with regards to Punishing Fire, why can't it come off and Grove of the Burnwillows be banned instead? Isn't the entire problem the interaction between those two?
With Merfolk winning the GP,do you think we will see spikes in Merfolk cards and Aether Vial?
With running the dorks the mana is a lot smoother. I personally like having 3x Township because we want to be sure to draw it if the game goes long. In addition, some decks like Abzan and Hatebears will bring in land hate against us, so having multiples becomes ok. It doesn't come up too often where I get color screwed by having two. Still, if you don't like having 3, I definitely think you should run some utility land in its place. Vault might be ok, or Ghost Quarter if you want anti-tron tech, but if you are still concerned about your colorless mana count I would go with another Stirring Wildwood.
Do you like Zealous Persecution here? With all their auras it seems really bad, but I can see how it is good if you take out a hexproof dude and a Dryad Arbor or something. Is this a card that is play/draw dependent?
Well, I mean, he has a point. The goal of the Tier subforms here is to have threads for established decks that have put up competitive tournament results...the discard version has not done that. Search on MTG Top8 or SCG and you will find nothing. I think the post last page from someone saying they Top 8'd a PPTG is the only result I've seen. Mostly all there is are Emracool's suspect claims that he has an unbelievable winrate despite also having a bunch of 50/50 matchups.
Frankly I'm not sure if it belongs in here. It's a clear variant, but if the thread exists to paint a picture of the Tier 2 decks people are playing, then the Discard Liege deck doesn't fit until it grows in popularity or starts consistently placing. And it's getting harder and harder for good discussions to occur with people split on deck choice. Barely anyone talks about the dork version in here, the actual one that got Top 8 at a PT and got this thread. I think it's a good deck, but Emracool if you want to convince people it's as great as you say it is, you have to go out and tear up PPTQs, SCG Opens, MTGO Dailies...just aggressively posting about it only goes so far. Sell your grinder friends on it, get THEM to play the deck or write articles about it, take a big group of people all playing the deck to States this weekend. That's got to be better than this.
I think there was a deck at the SCG Open this week that ran a bunch of Den Protectors. I hear in general the card is backbreaking for control. The main thing is, is this a card that fits into our game plan? The utility seems large (best case scenario you get some Raptors back and rebuy a Genesis Hydra or Whisperwood) but the body is kind of small. Gets past Elspeth I guess.
Here are the open lists for reference:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81898
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81939
They are much more experimental than the Invitational decklist:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81862
I think it is too soon to say which cards are keepers yet aside from Raptor and Dromoka's Command.
Not really...you just don't flash it back immediately if you think they have a sweeper. When they do you can get two spirits for cheap. That's "don't overextend" 101. Plus if your have more disruption you can pick those out of their hand.
Do NOT forget the lesson of GP Miami. The one-of Temur Sabertooth is not a "flex spot." It is an intentional deckbuilding concession that Devotion decks are popular and that a lot of times and especially in the GW mirror, whoever draws their Temur Sabertooth will win. I would cut something else. Probably the 4th Mastery.
Elf is fine, but I generally cut some Voyaging Satyrs against red-based aggro because it likes to get burned. Also cut a few Masteries. It is a powerful card but very slow and having multiple doesn't help that. Generally you will only need to get a decent-sized lifegain activation once to get a cushion that will let you stabilize, activate again, and get out of reach. Genesis Hydra is also pretty awkwardly slow and I may cut some of those before anything else. It is just abysmal until you get to 6 mana, where it finally becomes "okay." X=3 might be better now that we have Raptor in addition to Fleecemane and Courser, but I think I'd have to see the math. I've been burned enough that I'd rather be casting even an Arbor Colossus for 5 mana, and MUCH rather have Surge of Righteousness.
Abzan Aggro is a different story. They are slow enough that you can leave in dorks, but still should trade them out for Lion. I like to cut Caryatid here. It isn't blocking anything and even though Satyr is removable, I am happy if they are using removal on it. I actually like trimming a Mastery or two: if you expect a lot of enchantment removal, you are either stranding it in their hand or forcing them to use it on your Courser, clearing the way to stick a Mastery. Nissa is ok here if you can protect her and get Rhinos out of the way. Less good if they also have Tasigur. I may still trim the Gen Hydras.
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Looking at the Invitational matches, it seems like there are a lot of flyers that are problems for the deck. In every single loss against Reid Duke's Sultai deck, the GW player lost because of Dragonlord Silumgar. That is just brutal. We can't just hope for them to not draw it because Sidisi is stupid good and tutors. Because of this, I think it is time for Arbor Colossus to show up in the 75 again. I am thinking of cutting a Mastery (putting it in the side) and a dork for 2, and finding a spot for one in the side. That gives me a total of 10 dorks (4 elf, 3/3 split Caryatid/Courser), which I think is still good enough.
Has anyone tried this version of the deck? It attracted me because of the toolbox aspect and the green-ness of the deck. The toolbox lets you be very versatile while not affecting the density of Elves too much, and a lot of times Collected Company is just actually the nuts. Chord lets you run bullets; you have instant-speed Twin hate at x=1,2, and 3, or you can just go get an Ezuri or Elvish Archdruid EOT and win. It's sweet.
But I don't have much experience with elves and am trying to learn how to elf, particularly when it comes to sideboarding. I know this is based off a more aggressive build, but what elves generally come out in each matchup? A lot of the elves seem pretty integral to the deck. Is it ok to cut Heritage Druids, against Twin and Junk, or is that something that you rarely want to cut? It just seems kind of awkward unless you are doing silly things with Nettle Sentinel, but at the same time the mana ramp can be huge when you need it. The list just seems super tight when it comes to replacements.
It's very good against Twin. They can't really counter it because if they do you just flash it back. At the very least, I find it better than Finks where the lifegain doesn't matter and it will just get stonewalled by Deceiver Exarch. The tokens can also block Pestermite and Clique.
Amulet...again, it's better than Finks. What is Finks doing for you here? Titans attack for 16 damage at a time and lifegain doesn't help at all vs Hive Mind. Souls can fly over a slow Titan if they really need to.
Tokens it's not great against but still good. Between our own Souls, Decay for Anthems, Gavony, Liege, and anti-tokens cards like Zealous Persecution, we have the tools we need to fight the air battle.
Living End, AN, and Storm are all decks I don't have a lot of experience with but I can see how it would be bad. However they are so fringe and Souls is so good against other decks I think it's worth the spot in the maindeck. Especially in your list you have more disruption for these matchups where Souls is poor anyways.
Boggles I don't have much experience with either but it does buy you more chump blocks if they don't have a Rancor out for some reason. I don't think many of our creatures are amazing in this matchup but Souls at least has evasion and makes Voice tokens huge.
Have you played in any major events with the deck like SCG Opens, PPTQs, GPTs, or even MTGO events with the deck? Just wondering. In any case I would be interested in seeing you stream with it and see matches play out with commentary so if you do could you record it on Twitch or upload to youtube for archival purposes?
Yeah our options are basically to block it with a huge Bird or Hierarch, or race it with Spirit tokens or get lucky with a Thoughtseize...not exactly the best solutions. If they keep playing it then maybe try running Beast Within. Scooze can also attack through it if it gets big enough, and it's definitely maindeckable.
There were not, however there was a GW vs. Mardu Aggro featured, the latter deck is basically RW splashing B for Crackling Doom and I believe that is it. You can watch it here but it is not very informative as Osyp gets the nuts draw G1 and G2 Brad Nelson has ridiculous mana flood.
From talking to some people on RW, I think its matchup vs devotion strategies in general is mostly even. I think their above average and nuts draws beat ours (T1 Wild Slash, T2 Seeker, T3 Outburst into "free" Stoke, T4 Chain is just a huge beating...), but our average and mediocre draws beat theirs. Especially if we are talking about the hyper aggressive version that no longer plays Stormbreath.
Maybe, yes, yes, and yes. I am just not sure on Heroic as that deck has been falling off in popularity lately. The manifest blockers help in theory, but in practice it doesn't matter as much if the Heroic guy has Stratus Walk or Aqueous Form. But if both players have average draws and the Devotion player can start gaining life, I think they will be able to outpace the Heroic deck's damage output unless it is combo. Which, by the way, I think are the major enemy of the deck.
Perilous Vault is pretty good but I think people are forgetting the downsides of it as well. It is played a turn in advance and gives us the opportunity to prepare for it. In addition, often times they have to tap out to crack it, in which case we can deploy a Whisperwood/Genesis Hydra/Mastery that we have held in hand. We also have a brief opportunity to destroy it. Anger and Drown are much more problematic as they can come down during our setup phase and slow the deck down by a lot.
Yeah, it's the best option since no other RG deck doesn't care about life totals, but there's tons of lands in those colors already in the format so I'm not sure why making the mana slightly worse would completely kill the deck. I'm sure Tron could make do with Stomping Ground, Copperline Gorge, Karplusan Forest, or Mossfire Valley without too many problems.
Even if Punishing Fire would be jank and not see play, it's got a unique effect and Grove is just a land that taps for mana while breaking Punishing Fire apart.
Also with regards to Punishing Fire, why can't it come off and Grove of the Burnwillows be banned instead? Isn't the entire problem the interaction between those two?