Noble Hierarch is amazing. I understand the need for black mana, but at least go 3 Birds and 3 Hierarchs.
TBQH it is partly due to budget constraints. I borrow/proxy the Hierarchs when I can and when I can't there are two Avacyn's Pilgrim in those slots because I like having more than 4 dorks (which do an alright job of fixing considering you have Green mana anyways and we have so much hybrid). But also, since I'm using Foothills instead of Catacombs, I can't fetch basic swamp, which means I really need easy black mana. So 4 birds. It's possible even with Verdant Catacombs I still want more birds so I can more painlessly do things like flashback souls + abrupt decay, but I'll readily admit my setup isn't optimal. Dragons of Tarkir and MM2015 soon pls.
So that said, that Urborg is looking pretty nice. I may want to try that out. But I was meaning to ask you about the manabase, how are you liking the 3 Sunpetal Groves? I run 2 Thicket and 1 Grove and I still have that one Grove show up in awkward opening hands like bird, 2-drop, 3-drop, grove, gavony, bird. Super awkward to the point where I can't imagine running 3.
As for names, I think the official PT stream used "Wilted Abzan," which I am partial to. Then again I hate "Little Kid Abzan" as a name so I'm biased. <_<
Pretty standard list aside from cards I don't have. Murderous Cut is kind of awkward and bad against Wurmcoil so I am working on rounding out my playset of paths. Also going to swap the Rhino and Liege numbers. I just want to see Rhino more most of the time. Would also like to try Stirring Wildwood.
Sideboard is a work in progress; here's what I'm working towards:
Basically, I want access to more disruption and interaction after game one. I'd like to put the Oozes maindeck somehow, but there is just no room. Still, he's nice having around against Abzan, graveyard strategies, and occasionally against BW Tokens to exile their Lingering Souls. Crypt should probably just be Relic of Progenitus. I would have Rest in Peace but it's just so bad with Voice, Finks, and Lingering Souls.
I don't know how indicative the Modern metagame the SCG IQs are, but I was surprised to not see a decklist of this archetype in the top 16. I figure a version of this deck with mainboard Abrupt Decay has a good enough matchup against Twin and improved game against Affinity while still retaining its advantage of better matchups than Abzan Midrange against the "mirror" and burn. Seems decently well positioned but maybe it just has yet to catch on, despite the top 8 at the PT.
Everything I've read about the deck says that Turn 1 dorks are so important that I think the best sub for the Hierarchs is more mana dorks. Wilson said he strongly considered mulliganing a hand without a mana dork, and Pardee and I think Kibler as well had similar thoughts. Turn 2 3-drop (any 3 drop really) into Turn 3 Rhino is just such a strong opening. Especially with no Thoughtseize, that leaves you with only 4 spells to cast turn 1 (I guess more with Path, but Turn 1 path feels so bad). I'm down to 6 dorks but I'm running 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim in their spot due to no Hierarchs, which does an ok job of mana fixing. I haven't personally played with Bob so I can't attest to its power level in the deck, but I think in the matchups I'm really worried about (Twin, Tron, Scapeshift) I want more disruption (and/or removal in Twin's case) instead of straight-up card advantage. Plus it seems like it makes the burn matchup a lot worse G1.
I apologize to all the Hatebear players since it feels like this thread is being hijacked, but there's not really a good place to discuss the Abzan Beatdown deck atm. :\
I think the deck needs to run some number of Temur Charm in the main. I had dropped it but I realized the other day that I have no MB outs to Hornet Queen. That card destroys us. It used to not be much of a problem because by the time it came out we could have them within Claws range and could push through the last bit of damage, but Frontier Siege is a card now and people are casting Queens on turn 4. This deck's matchup was already not great against Green Devotion strategies, and it's gotten even worse now that they have Siege and Ugin.
With the move away from green creatures towards going heavier on red, Hunt the Hunter has just gotten worse and worse. I've dropped it since it's becoming harder to get valid targets for it. Plus without Polukranos, only Knuckleblade can fight a Siege Rhino (or any 4-power creature) and not die after the pump. I suppose it's ok against Abzan Aggro still but only if you have enough green creatures. Eckert's list doesn't even have Heir of the Wilds, and Rattleclaw isn't surviving a fight.
It looks like the plan for this deck is to have as high of a density of Ferocious creatures as possible, enabling Flamewake Phoenix reursion and a bunch of burn to close off the game. Blue looks to be in there just for Knuckleblade and sideboard slots.
I really don't know what to do about Elvish Mystic. I tried playing them with Rabblemaster, hated it, and now I'm dropping them and Rabblemaster from my list. I find myself siding at least 1 or 2 out in every match because I honestly don't know what else is a good cut. Usually, they seem like the weakest card, even though they are a great boon to get ahead on mana, the Turn 1 dork just rarely happens in a deck with 4 taplands and only 4 dorks. I'm thinking I will cut them entirely. Ideally running something like this:
Magma Spray is back because I expect to see Flamewake and Ashcloud Phoenixes running around, and they annoy me.
For the 4 unknown spots, I am thinking about +2 Sylvan Caryatid, +2 Lightning Strike (OR Wild Slash). Seeing more Mantis Riders recently. Temur Charm is also an option; it served me pretty well in the past.
As I said, this definitely some more 3 drops, perhaps 3-4 Yasova Dragonclaw. Went against Abzan and won two times, Mardu Midrange and Jeskai Tokens, which was my loss, although I didn't feel at any given time it was unwinnable. Temur Ascendancy overperformed, but I might scale down to 3 and cut the two Crater's Claws for three Yasova Dragonclaw. The instant speed mana sink plan works really great: you hold mana up which you can invest in both Monsters (Polukranos and Dragon), cast a surprise Surrak, activate Knuckleblade or Shaman abilities, or simply cast one of your instants. It really screws with people and makes feigning counters / removal much more easy, and they can't play around everything. I think this is the greatest strength of the deck and I cannot stress enough how we should focus on this aspect if we're playing blue and leave the aggro for the RG Monsters players.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on Sagu Mauler. Big body, evasion and nearly unkillable are great, but I haven't found many spaces for him to fit in other than Surrak's, and the Khan is clearly the better option.
If your plan is to play at instant speed, why no Boon Satyr? Probably better than Yasova in this build.
Also I think Mauler is a bit too much. Yeah, Jeskai and Abzan have trouble getting rid of him but they still have an out in Elspeth. And Mardu just don't care due to Crackling Doom. I don't think it is the most efficient sideboard card.
Reality shift holds promise when you would rather they have anything but the card they currently have, though I worry it's weak against Sultai walker control.
Why would it be bad against Sultai Control? Fabiano's deck played four creatures in the maindeck and they were Satyr Wayfinders. I imagine they'll start running some number of Tasigur main and maybe a Silumgar but that's still about 4 or 5 creatures that matter to us. He typically boarded in more creatures after game one expecting their opponents to board out their removal, so Reality Shift cold counter that line of thinking.
I think Temur has a lot of tools available to fight the Sultai Control deck. Crater's Claws can burn out walkers, we have Stubborn Denial for their removal spells and planeswalkers. Knuckleblade, Heir of the Wilds, and Polukranos can attack through a Tasigur. We have two Phoenixes and Stormbreath Dragon, which ignore it. The Phoenixes in particular are annoying for them to deal with since Sultai colors lack good exile removal outside of Silence the Believers and Reality Shift (which is bad against us). Postboard we have access to Disdainful Stroke, which is effective against all their walkers but Ashiok and hits a good portion of their deck due to delve spells. From my experience, this deck has very good game against control due to efficient, resilient threats and counter play. If you manage to protect and untap with a Knuckleblade they now have to 2-for-1 themselves to try and kill it.
Everyone seems big on Frost Walker but I think it's a trap. Not due to the sacrifice clause, but the 1 toughness. We are playing in a standard full of Satyr Wayfinders and Delve spells, Elvish Mystic, 5-toughness idiots, Hordeling Outburst, 1/1 tokens EVERYWHERE (goblins, monks, bees, white soldiers, red soldiers!). I love that it's a cheap creature with huge power that turns on Ferocious. But it's going to get blocked by everything, so I don't think it's well positioned right now. I don't care if it gets removed (if my opponent uses a good removal on my 2-drop, I'm very happy unless it was a Rattleclaw), but not actually being able to get through damage is annoying. Heir can attack and even trade with Rhinos and Tasigur, and worst case scenario I trade it for 2 1/1 tokens instead of just 1.
All kibler had to do was replace Knuckleblade with Elvish Mystic and drop to R/G. The blue in the deck is not really adding anything to the deck. You are playing with a very slow mana base and heavy on 3 drops. I really don't see how Goblin Rabblemaster and stoke the flames are not in this deck. This just seems like a worse version of R/G monsters.
Saying the blue adds nothing to the deck is just wrong. Knuckleblade and Stubborn Denial are ridiculously good cards. If you play with them, the difference is night and day. The real question is, are they worth the manabase in this current meta? It could be that they are totally unnecessary, and I'm thinking of dropping blue and playing straight Gruul. I really like the playstyle Temur offers, but RG might be more consistent.
As for Rabble/Stoke....Monsters is not a deck that wants to abuse Rabble + Stoke. RG doesn't want Stoke the Flames, it wants to attack with huge creatures instead of tapping them to convoke and play efficient burn like Crater's Claws, Strike and/or Slash. I'm not even entirely convinced that Rabblemaster is an auto-include in GR. The Jeskai/Mardu Tokens decks as well as mono-red aggro are much better suited to take advantage of that combo, and monsters wants to go a bit bigger.
Sorry for double post. Didn't see Brood's post and wanted to respond.
You seem to be missing some cards in the decklist. Were you running Rattleclaw Mystic? It is important you have some sort of mana acceleration otherwise your colors will be harder to hit and the deck will run slower. You at least figured out you had no answer to Hornet Queen in your list at all, which is the other thing I wanted to point out. Barrage of boulders kills bees, Temur Charm is ok, even Anger sort of works if you are desparate.
Another thing about yours and Kibler's list is that they may want to lower the top end? 5 5s is a lot for an "aggro" deck. I wouldn't go above 3 or 4 and personally only run 2 dragon which is probably wrong because dragon is so good. But going the midrange route may also be ok, and at least you have really obvious cuts in that case. If UB control gets big I want aggro though.
Man, 12 3-drops? And no Mystic? I know kibler is down 9 the elf but it I was running that many 3-drop creatures I would want to maximize my chances or getting one turn 2. But I don't know what to cut for it so I could be wrong. I don't really like elf either.
With Rattleclaw ramping to 4 mana on 3 I think that the list needs some more 4-drops as well. Maybe a pair of Ashcloud Phoenix to go with the synergy of the Shaman. He has plenty of ways to use 4 mana like 3 drop into Claws, haste knux, denial postboard...I would switch Strike to wild slash though. They are both equally useless in the matchup where they are bad but slash is more mana efficient at the very least.
It is kind of a weird list...curve is awkward and I feel like he isn't taking full advantage of blue. And i wish i knew the reasoning of his sideboard. But I think he is on to something in the 3-drop spot. 12 is too many but I may go 2-2-2 on Satyr/Fanatic/Yasova.
When sideboarding I usually take out some number of more fragile creatures like noon Satyr against aggro and midrange and trim down on Elvish Mystics and Temur Charms depending on the matchup. Frees up enough space for sideboard slots.
It would, creatures have to go to the graveyard to "die" and get on-death triggers. Anafenza exiles it instead so no Voice trigger. Same reason you don't get a token if Voice gets hit by Anger or Pillar of Flame.
I always thought that exiling from damage meant that it did actually die, it just went to exile instead of the graveyard
The game's definition of "die" is for a creature to go from the battlefield to the graveyard. Anger of the Gods says that it is exiled instead of going to the graveyard. So it never dies. That's why Ashcloud Phoenix doesn't come back and other dies triggers also don't go off.
Mysential, I wouldn't call Siege Rhino "irrelevant." We do have trouble punching through it without Knux, Heir, or a flier. Knux can't even get through if we tap out to play this guy. Shaman can't at all, and maybe trading with a courser is ok but getting walled by Rhino feels bad. Polukranos is a threat that has to be answered because it stomps all over all of their creatures. I do want to try him Shaman with more evasive creatures like the 3-drop Phoenix.
Temur Charm also gets a lot worse when your creature dies in the process, and our removal against midrange decks is already pretty bad.
TBQH it is partly due to budget constraints. I borrow/proxy the Hierarchs when I can and when I can't there are two Avacyn's Pilgrim in those slots because I like having more than 4 dorks (which do an alright job of fixing considering you have Green mana anyways and we have so much hybrid). But also, since I'm using Foothills instead of Catacombs, I can't fetch basic swamp, which means I really need easy black mana. So 4 birds. It's possible even with Verdant Catacombs I still want more birds so I can more painlessly do things like flashback souls + abrupt decay, but I'll readily admit my setup isn't optimal. Dragons of Tarkir and MM2015 soon pls.
So that said, that Urborg is looking pretty nice. I may want to try that out. But I was meaning to ask you about the manabase, how are you liking the 3 Sunpetal Groves? I run 2 Thicket and 1 Grove and I still have that one Grove show up in awkward opening hands like bird, 2-drop, 3-drop, grove, gavony, bird. Super awkward to the point where I can't imagine running 3.
As for names, I think the official PT stream used "Wilted Abzan," which I am partial to. Then again I hate "Little Kid Abzan" as a name so I'm biased. <_<
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Siege Rhino
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Thoughtseize
2 Path to Exile
1 Murderous Cut
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
Land: 23
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Gavony Township
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sunpetal Grove
Pretty standard list aside from cards I don't have. Murderous Cut is kind of awkward and bad against Wurmcoil so I am working on rounding out my playset of paths. Also going to swap the Rhino and Liege numbers. I just want to see Rhino more most of the time. Would also like to try Stirring Wildwood.
Sideboard is a work in progress; here's what I'm working towards:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Duress
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stony Silence
1 Fracturing Gust
Basically, I want access to more disruption and interaction after game one. I'd like to put the Oozes maindeck somehow, but there is just no room. Still, he's nice having around against Abzan, graveyard strategies, and occasionally against BW Tokens to exile their Lingering Souls. Crypt should probably just be Relic of Progenitus. I would have Rest in Peace but it's just so bad with Voice, Finks, and Lingering Souls.
I don't know how indicative the Modern metagame the SCG IQs are, but I was surprised to not see a decklist of this archetype in the top 16. I figure a version of this deck with mainboard Abrupt Decay has a good enough matchup against Twin and improved game against Affinity while still retaining its advantage of better matchups than Abzan Midrange against the "mirror" and burn. Seems decently well positioned but maybe it just has yet to catch on, despite the top 8 at the PT.
I apologize to all the Hatebear players since it feels like this thread is being hijacked, but there's not really a good place to discuss the Abzan Beatdown deck atm. :\
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79413
It looks like the plan for this deck is to have as high of a density of Ferocious creatures as possible, enabling Flamewake Phoenix reursion and a bunch of burn to close off the game. Blue looks to be in there just for Knuckleblade and sideboard slots.
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Boon Satyr
2 Yasova Dragonclaw
2 Flamewake Phoenix
3 Shaman of the Great Hunt
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Crater's Claws
4 ???
Land: 23
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Shivan Reef
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Reality Shift
2 Magma Spray
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Barrage of Boulders
2 Hornet Nest
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Destructive Revelry
Magma Spray is back because I expect to see Flamewake and Ashcloud Phoenixes running around, and they annoy me.
For the 4 unknown spots, I am thinking about +2 Sylvan Caryatid, +2 Lightning Strike (OR Wild Slash). Seeing more Mantis Riders recently. Temur Charm is also an option; it served me pretty well in the past.
If your plan is to play at instant speed, why no Boon Satyr? Probably better than Yasova in this build.
Also I think Mauler is a bit too much. Yeah, Jeskai and Abzan have trouble getting rid of him but they still have an out in Elspeth. And Mardu just don't care due to Crackling Doom. I don't think it is the most efficient sideboard card.
Why would it be bad against Sultai Control? Fabiano's deck played four creatures in the maindeck and they were Satyr Wayfinders. I imagine they'll start running some number of Tasigur main and maybe a Silumgar but that's still about 4 or 5 creatures that matter to us. He typically boarded in more creatures after game one expecting their opponents to board out their removal, so Reality Shift cold counter that line of thinking.
I think Temur has a lot of tools available to fight the Sultai Control deck. Crater's Claws can burn out walkers, we have Stubborn Denial for their removal spells and planeswalkers. Knuckleblade, Heir of the Wilds, and Polukranos can attack through a Tasigur. We have two Phoenixes and Stormbreath Dragon, which ignore it. The Phoenixes in particular are annoying for them to deal with since Sultai colors lack good exile removal outside of Silence the Believers and Reality Shift (which is bad against us). Postboard we have access to Disdainful Stroke, which is effective against all their walkers but Ashiok and hits a good portion of their deck due to delve spells. From my experience, this deck has very good game against control due to efficient, resilient threats and counter play. If you manage to protect and untap with a Knuckleblade they now have to 2-for-1 themselves to try and kill it.
Everyone seems big on Frost Walker but I think it's a trap. Not due to the sacrifice clause, but the 1 toughness. We are playing in a standard full of Satyr Wayfinders and Delve spells, Elvish Mystic, 5-toughness idiots, Hordeling Outburst, 1/1 tokens EVERYWHERE (goblins, monks, bees, white soldiers, red soldiers!). I love that it's a cheap creature with huge power that turns on Ferocious. But it's going to get blocked by everything, so I don't think it's well positioned right now. I don't care if it gets removed (if my opponent uses a good removal on my 2-drop, I'm very happy unless it was a Rattleclaw), but not actually being able to get through damage is annoying. Heir can attack and even trade with Rhinos and Tasigur, and worst case scenario I trade it for 2 1/1 tokens instead of just 1.
Saying the blue adds nothing to the deck is just wrong. Knuckleblade and Stubborn Denial are ridiculously good cards. If you play with them, the difference is night and day. The real question is, are they worth the manabase in this current meta? It could be that they are totally unnecessary, and I'm thinking of dropping blue and playing straight Gruul. I really like the playstyle Temur offers, but RG might be more consistent.
As for Rabble/Stoke....Monsters is not a deck that wants to abuse Rabble + Stoke. RG doesn't want Stoke the Flames, it wants to attack with huge creatures instead of tapping them to convoke and play efficient burn like Crater's Claws, Strike and/or Slash. I'm not even entirely convinced that Rabblemaster is an auto-include in GR. The Jeskai/Mardu Tokens decks as well as mono-red aggro are much better suited to take advantage of that combo, and monsters wants to go a bit bigger.
You seem to be missing some cards in the decklist. Were you running Rattleclaw Mystic? It is important you have some sort of mana acceleration otherwise your colors will be harder to hit and the deck will run slower. You at least figured out you had no answer to Hornet Queen in your list at all, which is the other thing I wanted to point out. Barrage of boulders kills bees, Temur Charm is ok, even Anger sort of works if you are desparate.
Another thing about yours and Kibler's list is that they may want to lower the top end? 5 5s is a lot for an "aggro" deck. I wouldn't go above 3 or 4 and personally only run 2 dragon which is probably wrong because dragon is so good. But going the midrange route may also be ok, and at least you have really obvious cuts in that case. If UB control gets big I want aggro though.
Man, 12 3-drops? And no Mystic? I know kibler is down 9 the elf but it I was running that many 3-drop creatures I would want to maximize my chances or getting one turn 2. But I don't know what to cut for it so I could be wrong. I don't really like elf either.
With Rattleclaw ramping to 4 mana on 3 I think that the list needs some more 4-drops as well. Maybe a pair of Ashcloud Phoenix to go with the synergy of the Shaman. He has plenty of ways to use 4 mana like 3 drop into Claws, haste knux, denial postboard...I would switch Strike to wild slash though. They are both equally useless in the matchup where they are bad but slash is more mana efficient at the very least.
It is kind of a weird list...curve is awkward and I feel like he isn't taking full advantage of blue. And i wish i knew the reasoning of his sideboard. But I think he is on to something in the 3-drop spot. 12 is too many but I may go 2-2-2 on Satyr/Fanatic/Yasova.
The game's definition of "die" is for a creature to go from the battlefield to the graveyard. Anger of the Gods says that it is exiled instead of going to the graveyard. So it never dies. That's why Ashcloud Phoenix doesn't come back and other dies triggers also don't go off.
Mysential, I wouldn't call Siege Rhino "irrelevant." We do have trouble punching through it without Knux, Heir, or a flier. Knux can't even get through if we tap out to play this guy. Shaman can't at all, and maybe trading with a courser is ok but getting walled by Rhino feels bad. Polukranos is a threat that has to be answered because it stomps all over all of their creatures. I do want to try him Shaman with more evasive creatures like the 3-drop Phoenix.
Temur Charm also gets a lot worse when your creature dies in the process, and our removal against midrange decks is already pretty bad.