1: Graveyard hate to turn off Flashback, or neutralizing Burning Vengeance.
2: In my opinion U/B Control is becoming the new rock, and R/G Aggro or Zombies are drifting into the paper spot. I think this deck is well positioned to beat U/B Control simply because of the lack of enchantment kill, and control aspects to throw against theirs with the added bonus of blanking their black control (Slip, BSZ, Curse of Death's Hold, Tribute to Hunger, Doom Blade, GftT).
Sticking a Burning Vengeance is a lot of pressure that a U/B control deck can't stop, because it's not coming from creatures. The list that won SCG Tampa has 8 ways in the deck of stopping BV: 4 Leak, 2 Dissipate, 2 Ratchet Bomb. If they don't, every time Vengeance Snapcasts a spell or flashes one back on its own, it's 2 damage they can't do anything about. However, there aren't many other threats in this deck for them to worry about so all their countermagic can go straight toward BV. This puts us in a tough position where we need potent counters of our own to push BV through, which might come at the expense of costing us enough flashback spells to succeed with BV at all.
My theory on being scissors is this: Strong plans to neutralize single large creatures decks like U/B Control and Ramp want to win on the back of and effective permission to protect our win condition while still maintaining a critical mass of flashback to seal the game with BV.
That being said it could be time to look at green again. It offers two powerful options for combating disruptions to our plan: Naturalize to remove an o-ring on a BV or to force a spellbomb or Ratchet Bomb use when it's best for us, not them, and Autumn's Veil on turns we need to ensure a critical spell gets through such as the initial BV.
I ended up running a list with a lot less flashback in it, as all I really need is the Raven's Crime or Flame Jab and a Dakmor Salvage with Secrets of the Dead to basically go off. Not having creatures was painful, so I'm looking at a list something like this for next week:
Perplex serves as Secrets/Vengeance 5 and 6 in the deck, and lets me go get them if they aren't showing up. Last resort it's "you can have that spell, but you're in topdeck mode".
I'm getting a playset of Snapcaster Mage on Thursday, and I'm considering putting Delver of Secrets in here for a one drop. It's rare that it's not flipped by turn 3 assuming a turn 1 drop. I'm also looking at Kiln Fiend for some more creatures. It would hit even harder than the Dragonauts in any turn where I get to dump my mana into Raven's Crime.
I haven't completely ruled out adding another color, but I won't be adding Life From the Loam. In this particular deck it's simply inferior. That being said, Green would be the color I'd be most likely to splash, as I've got a set of Hinterland Harbor or Woodland Cemetery as well as some Misty Rainforest. Green would allow me to run Maelstrom Pulse, as well. White would give me Path to Exile, but that would make my Mana Leaks a lot less effective.
As far as matchups, I didn't have a problem with Death Cloud, as they had too many dead cards... any deck that worries about keeping creatures under control is drawing a lot of blanks against this deck at the moment. No creatures really hurt me against aggro decks though. I just didn't have enough removal when I needed it.
With that title, I was almost thinking you were playing a white deck with Nevermore in it.
How often have you found the seven enchantments to be too many enchantments, not enough business? At least Haakon is a 3/3 (and he is often found in the same deck as Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam). Even when I play the Haakon Enchantment version, I often feel like the enchantment is dead alone.
Secrets of the Dead plus LftL is hilarious--with the first Raven's Crime's draw trigger, dredge Loam. You'll also often draw into lands to discard to Crime.
Now take the hilarity of Secrets + LftL and change Loam to Dakmor Salvage:
Raven's Crime on the stack, Dakmor Salvage to the grave for retrace.
Secrets (and Vengeance) triggers, going on the stack on top of Raven's Crime.
Trigger resolves, dredge back Dakmor Salvage instead of drawing.
Raven's Crime resolves (or is countered, even), and goes back to the graveyard. Dakmor Salvage is in hand, ready to be discarded again.
I don't ever run out of lands in hand assuming I get a Salvage in either my graveyard or hand. That's why I'm not sold on Loam atm and look at it more as a way to get my Urborg back and into play.
As far as the number of enchantments, I agree that sometimes it feels like it's too many, but I'd have to have a way to get them quickly (like Enlightened Tutor speed) before I'd feel comfortable taking any out. I look at it as the enchantments being the business, particularly Burning Vengeance.
Oh, and as far as Nevermore goes, I thought about using that name but knew it was a card too, so I didn't. It's a good card though and something I'd think about putting in here, just because there's going to be a lot of useless creature hate pointed at Meddling Mage if I ran that.
Edit: I've modified the list a bit to put in Noxious Revival and another Salvage. This feels a lot better. I've also got tentative ideas for the last sideboard slots:
I'm planning on switching out the Desperate Ravings for another two Faithless Looting. The Alchemy might be a little slow, but it digs 4 cards deep at instant speed. I'll look at switching it out. At the moment I'm thinking Haakon and Nameless Inversion in that spot for another win condition or at the very least a blocker that doesn't stay gone.
Life From the Loam isn't really an engine card in this deck, it's more along the lines of protecting my Urborgs. As long as that's in play and all my lands are swamps, the focus is on getting Vengeance and Secrets in play. Once that's accomplished I tap a land, dredge two cards, and shock something. Rinse and repeat until the opponent dies.
I like Memory's Journey, and will definitely try it out. I like Extirpate because once I get something in the graveyard, it's gone and there's nothing they can do about it, but I like the flashback on Memory's Journey and it serves close to the same purpose.
`Prophet!' said I, `thing of evil! - prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us - by that God we both adore -
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels named Lenore -
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden, whom the angels named Lenore?'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.' -Edgar Allan Poe
I'm putting this deck together for play at my local shop, and I'm looking for any feedback on something I might not be considering. So far, the meta is looking like Delver, some mono-red or possible B/R, Bant and G/W, possibly Tempered Steel, and an outside chance of seeing Death Cloud or B/W Tokens.
At the core, QtR is similar to the Haakon/Nameless Inversion list for a Burning Vengeance deck. It uses a spell repeatedly cast from the graveyard, combined with Burning Vengeance, to kill the opponent. I think my version is at least comparable to Haakon/NI:
Strengths
Less mana required to cast the killing spell (2 cmc for NI vs. my 1 cmc)
More resistant to disruption; kill or bounce Haakon and NI is useless. Casting him out of the graveyard again is a strong point for Haakon, but on the other hand, enchantment kill isn't a regular maindeck choice at the moment, just coming out of the Scars block.
I never run out of targets. Casting Nameless Inversion with only Haakon on the field is what I consider a "bad idea" Raven's Crime pointed at my opponent will clean out their hand in time, and is still usable even if they have 0 cards in it.
Weaknesses
No way to find the pieces without a lot of digging through the deck, and a good chance needed cards will be dredged or discarded.
No way to get pieces back in had if they do end up in the graveyard.
Creatureless, but that may or may not be a weakness.
This is where I am in my development process, so on the recommendation of my roommate I'm posting this deck to get outside perspectives on it.
My personal feelings about the deck are that it's slower than I'd like (usually about turn 5-6 everything is in place), but it's over very quickly when I start casting Raven's Crime. The fact that it's creatureless makes me very nervous in those first turns. Geist on 3 gets in for at least 6 if not 12 if I don't have an answer waiting.
Cases can be made for splashing green or white for one reason or another. At the moment I lean toward green for Prismatic Omen and Nature's Spiral as well as the flashback on Ancient Grudge post-board. I've also considered running Noxious Revival for pulling pieces back from the graveyard, which might earn a place in the main deck because it's phyrexian mana.
White brings Ghostly Prison or Wall of Denial to shore up the early game. Prison slows aggro decks, while the wall pretty much laughs at anything that gets thrown at it.
And there it is. Thanks in advance for any advice!
2: In my opinion U/B Control is becoming the new rock, and R/G Aggro or Zombies are drifting into the paper spot. I think this deck is well positioned to beat U/B Control simply because of the lack of enchantment kill, and control aspects to throw against theirs with the added bonus of blanking their black control (Slip, BSZ, Curse of Death's Hold, Tribute to Hunger, Doom Blade, GftT).
Sticking a Burning Vengeance is a lot of pressure that a U/B control deck can't stop, because it's not coming from creatures. The list that won SCG Tampa has 8 ways in the deck of stopping BV: 4 Leak, 2 Dissipate, 2 Ratchet Bomb. If they don't, every time Vengeance Snapcasts a spell or flashes one back on its own, it's 2 damage they can't do anything about. However, there aren't many other threats in this deck for them to worry about so all their countermagic can go straight toward BV. This puts us in a tough position where we need potent counters of our own to push BV through, which might come at the expense of costing us enough flashback spells to succeed with BV at all.
My theory on being scissors is this: Strong plans to neutralize single large creatures decks like U/B Control and Ramp want to win on the back of and effective permission to protect our win condition while still maintaining a critical mass of flashback to seal the game with BV.
That being said it could be time to look at green again. It offers two powerful options for combating disruptions to our plan: Naturalize to remove an o-ring on a BV or to force a spellbomb or Ratchet Bomb use when it's best for us, not them, and Autumn's Veil on turns we need to ensure a critical spell gets through such as the initial BV.
3 Secrets of the Dead
3 Burning Vengeance
4 Mana Leak
4 Think Twice
2 Flame Jab
4 Raven's Crime
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Perplex
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Whipflare
1 Terminate
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Wee Dragonauts
Land:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 City of Brass
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Blood Crypt
Basic Land:
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Unburial Rites
3 Witchbane Orb
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Extirpate
Perplex serves as Secrets/Vengeance 5 and 6 in the deck, and lets me go get them if they aren't showing up. Last resort it's "you can have that spell, but you're in topdeck mode".
I'm getting a playset of Snapcaster Mage on Thursday, and I'm considering putting Delver of Secrets in here for a one drop. It's rare that it's not flipped by turn 3 assuming a turn 1 drop. I'm also looking at Kiln Fiend for some more creatures. It would hit even harder than the Dragonauts in any turn where I get to dump my mana into Raven's Crime.
I haven't completely ruled out adding another color, but I won't be adding Life From the Loam. In this particular deck it's simply inferior. That being said, Green would be the color I'd be most likely to splash, as I've got a set of Hinterland Harbor or Woodland Cemetery as well as some Misty Rainforest. Green would allow me to run Maelstrom Pulse, as well. White would give me Path to Exile, but that would make my Mana Leaks a lot less effective.
As far as matchups, I didn't have a problem with Death Cloud, as they had too many dead cards... any deck that worries about keeping creatures under control is drawing a lot of blanks against this deck at the moment. No creatures really hurt me against aggro decks though. I just didn't have enough removal when I needed it.
Thoughts?
- Raven's Crime on the stack, Dakmor Salvage to the grave for retrace.
- Secrets (and Vengeance) triggers, going on the stack on top of Raven's Crime.
- Trigger resolves, dredge back Dakmor Salvage instead of drawing.
- Raven's Crime resolves (or is countered, even), and goes back to the graveyard. Dakmor Salvage is in hand, ready to be discarded again.
I don't ever run out of lands in hand assuming I get a Salvage in either my graveyard or hand. That's why I'm not sold on Loam atm and look at it more as a way to get my Urborg back and into play.As far as the number of enchantments, I agree that sometimes it feels like it's too many, but I'd have to have a way to get them quickly (like Enlightened Tutor speed) before I'd feel comfortable taking any out. I look at it as the enchantments being the business, particularly Burning Vengeance.
Oh, and as far as Nevermore goes, I thought about using that name but knew it was a card too, so I didn't. It's a good card though and something I'd think about putting in here, just because there's going to be a lot of useless creature hate pointed at Meddling Mage if I ran that.
Edit: I've modified the list a bit to put in Noxious Revival and another Salvage. This feels a lot better. I've also got tentative ideas for the last sideboard slots:
3 Raven's Crime
4 Burning Vengeance
3 Secrets of the Dead
1 Desperate Ravings
2 Faithless Looting
3 Geistflame
3 Noxious Revival
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
3 Volcanic Fallout
1 Damnation
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Extirpate
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Witchbane Orb
2 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Worm Harvest
Life From the Loam isn't really an engine card in this deck, it's more along the lines of protecting my Urborgs. As long as that's in play and all my lands are swamps, the focus is on getting Vengeance and Secrets in play. Once that's accomplished I tap a land, dredge two cards, and shock something. Rinse and repeat until the opponent dies.
I like Memory's Journey, and will definitely try it out. I like Extirpate because once I get something in the graveyard, it's gone and there's nothing they can do about it, but I like the flashback on Memory's Journey and it serves close to the same purpose.
By that Heaven that bends above us - by that God we both adore -
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels named Lenore -
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden, whom the angels named Lenore?'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'
-Edgar Allan Poe
I'm putting this deck together for play at my local shop, and I'm looking for any feedback on something I might not be considering. So far, the meta is looking like Delver, some mono-red or possible B/R, Bant and G/W, possibly Tempered Steel, and an outside chance of seeing Death Cloud or B/W Tokens.
That being said, here's the list:
3 Raven's Crime
4 Burning Vengeance
3 Secrets of the Dead
2 Desperate Ravings
2 Faithless Looting
3 Geistflame
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
3 Volcanic Fallout
1 Damnation
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Extirpate
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Witchbane Orb
4 Open Slots
At the core, QtR is similar to the Haakon/Nameless Inversion list for a Burning Vengeance deck. It uses a spell repeatedly cast from the graveyard, combined with Burning Vengeance, to kill the opponent. I think my version is at least comparable to Haakon/NI:
Strengths
- Less mana required to cast the killing spell (2 cmc for NI vs. my 1 cmc)
- More resistant to disruption; kill or bounce Haakon and NI is useless. Casting him out of the graveyard again is a strong point for Haakon, but on the other hand, enchantment kill isn't a regular maindeck choice at the moment, just coming out of the Scars block.
- I never run out of targets. Casting Nameless Inversion with only Haakon on the field is what I consider a "bad idea"
Raven's Crime pointed at my opponent will clean out their hand in time, and is still usable even if they have 0 cards in it.
Weaknesses- No way to find the pieces without a lot of digging through the deck, and a good chance needed cards will be dredged or discarded.
- No way to get pieces back in had if they do end up in the graveyard.
- Creatureless, but that may or may not be a weakness.
This is where I am in my development process, so on the recommendation of my roommate I'm posting this deck to get outside perspectives on it.My personal feelings about the deck are that it's slower than I'd like (usually about turn 5-6 everything is in place), but it's over very quickly when I start casting Raven's Crime. The fact that it's creatureless makes me very nervous in those first turns. Geist on 3 gets in for at least 6 if not 12 if I don't have an answer waiting.
Cases can be made for splashing green or white for one reason or another. At the moment I lean toward green for Prismatic Omen and Nature's Spiral as well as the flashback on Ancient Grudge post-board. I've also considered running Noxious Revival for pulling pieces back from the graveyard, which might earn a place in the main deck because it's phyrexian mana.
White brings Ghostly Prison or Wall of Denial to shore up the early game. Prison slows aggro decks, while the wall pretty much laughs at anything that gets thrown at it.
And there it is. Thanks in advance for any advice!