Part of it is that people often don't understand what we're doing and explaining the loop 10+ times gets frustrating at large tournaments. Also the uncounterable clause can be relevant. Finally, graveyard hate is a very real thing.
It seems like more and more people are running Blue Sun's Zenith as the big win-con. I still think Banefire is better here since it is a more viable win-con in the off chance that you fizzle. I've fizzled enough times even with a KCI on board that I would much rather Banefire for 15 than have to BSZ for 45+. Also, against some greedier mana bases, you can try to rush a quick Banefire kill without relying on fully comboing. I get that BSZ will just shuffle itself back in and you can go again later, but I think the kill potential is far better with Banefire.
Some notes: Reaver Drone is just a bad card. It's fine game 1 or on the play vs things like control. It's problem is that it's just outclassed by every creature currently played in Standard. Yeah it's probably the best 1 drop creature in these colors (and that's why I play it) but it's such a bad top-deck. It also came out game 2 and 3 every round. Eldrazi Obligator is great at breaking up stalemates. I won a game by dealing 19 damage in a turn when I stole someones Anafenza. Unfortunately, stealing one of the Origins flip-walkers before they flip won't give you the walker if you satisfy the condition. IMO this deck would play better as a mid-range deck. The only problem is that you'd want to cut the aggro focused creatures, namely Reaver Drone, Flayer Drone, and Forerunner of Slaughter. That's a pretty big chunk of the deck that you'd replace if you go away from aggro.
I've been running the Reshape version with KCI and using Banefire. It's simple, effective, and takes significantly less time to kill. I have a Codex Shredder and a Pyrite main just in case.
In my opinion, the Urza lands version of this deck isn't very good. You focus too much on finding the Tron lands and not working towards a successful combo/big spell. That version of this deck forces you to run things like Expedition Map and/or Sylvan Scrying which don't synergize as well with the combo. On the other hand, running the Reshape into Lotus Bloom version streamlines much better with the core combo (play artifacts, net mana, recur, profit).
That said, I played this deck to 5-4 at SCG Cincinnati today and my friend went 1-5 with a similar deck before giving up. I can safely say that I lost way more games to myself than to the opponent, be they misplays or fizzles or just drawing dead to start. I'll post my list and what I remember from the matches that I lost.
If you have questions about why I included certain cards, just ask. But the main deck is relatively standard as far as this deck goes; three win cons (Codex Shredder, Spellbomb, and Banefire). Banefire is the simple and easy win condition that I chose over Emrakul because Cryptic Command tapped down my Emrakul a few too many times in play testing. The Tezzerets out of the board are INSANE against the fair matchups (mostly GBx decks). Make a few 5/5s then sit back and dig for artifacts. Other sideboard cards are self-explanatory. So I'll skip over the matches that I won because none of them had anything too significant.
Round 1 vs Bloom Titan
Game 1: This guy was not a good player but I drew blank game 1. I had a few 1 mana artifacts out but didn't draw enough lands to play a KCI or a Reward. Turn 5 rolled around and I figured I had to go for it. Dug for a Reshape but never saw it. Didn't have enough mana to do anything useful and just wasted my eggs. Lost
Game 2: Lost to his turn 3 on the draw win. Nothing I could do about it.
Round 4 vs GW Hatebears
Game 1: Lost to Thalia into Scavenging Ooze.
Game 2: Won off the back of double Pyroclasm.
Game 3: Backed into a corner where I had to combo out to win. Limped through 1 Faith's Reward and 1 Open the Vaults iteration then came up blank. I drew into 2 Open the Vaults but hadn't been able to net enough mana to cast them since I had relied on Ghost Quartering my own lands to net mana off the Reward but didn't get them back on OtV. If I had drawn another Reward, I probably won.
Round 5 vs Boggles
Game 1: I confidently started going off on turn 4 while on the play and he scooped. I probably had it but he didn't bother playing it out after I got a pretty good initial Faith's Reward off.
Game 2: I made a HUGE misplay here. He goes turn 1 land, pass. Turn 2 Dryad Arbor and Ethereal Armor on the Arbor. Turn 3 Hyena Umbra WHILE I HAVE A GHOST QUARTER UP. At this point it should've been obvious he was going all in on that stupid Arbor. But I tunnel visioned in on comboing that I didn't Ghost Quarter his Dryad Arbor. Lost the game shortly after while on full tilt.
Game 3: Seriously on tilt from last game I kept a 0 land hand with a Lotus Bloom thinking I'd be golden if I drew a land. Didn't draw a land.
Round 8 vs Tron
Turns out O-stone and Karn are pretty decent. I made the mistake of tapping out for 2 Thoughtcasts hoping to hit a land when I had a few Stars and a few Spheres out. Didn't hit a land and lost my rocks to O-Stone and had no draw power.
My wins were against Jund, Junk, Zoo, Burn, and UW Emeria control list. So my big takeaways are that I need to tighten up my play and I might add a second Mox Opal in. I also think I need to mulligan a little more aggressively. Overall though, I'm happy with how I did considering I was playing eggs at a 1000+ person SCG Open.
EDIT: I think Nihil Spellbomb is something I want to work into the Side
Since I'm very unfamiliar with this crowd, can I ask what are your stances on competitive vs casual commander? I know it's a very polarizing topic but I'm just curious.
As for me, I have absolutely loved playing in a competitive EDH meta. I also have a lot of friends that like to just play for fun and get annoyed with too competitive decks, so I keep a "sideboard" of sorts that I can switch things out depending on who I play with. This is something my various play groups talk about (mostly talking ***** about the other party and how casual or serious they are). Trying to mix the two ideologies is absolutely hilarious though, it always turns into a crap show.
Edit: I play Lyzolda and usually take out the tutors when playing more casual.
Thanks Digi! And I would love for a true control deck to be good in Modern, I just don't think the timing is right. Modern is in a very weird state of flux with people trying to play the perceived strongest decks while others are trying to counter these new "best" decks.
That said, if I were to run control right, I'd be running some amount of Chalice of the Void at very least in the side board. I play UR Tron (it's mono-blue with 4x Electrolyze main and a few side cards) and I run 2 or 3 Chalice main depending on the day, so I may be slightly biased. Chalice on 1 is incredibly strong against the Infect and Burn that are popular at the moment.
Also, if you want to run mill, I'd suggest a few board wipes main, they are just necessary in Modern in my opinion without the deck manipulation and dig that Legacy offers. Unless you discard into Surgical on turn 1, you could just straight lose to a Goblin Guide let alone a Goyf into Siege Rhino if they manage to run you out of steam. As far as Cyc Rift goes, I wouldn't touch it unless you're playing Tron.
Edit - don't know if that was the list you were set on running but do you have fetches? The land base should be tweaked.
Tiny commander has been getting a bunch of hype around my LGS too. I've converted my only EDH deck (Lyzolda, The Blood Witch) into this for one round and it was pretty fun. I typically don't like formats that aren't in some way sanctioned so I won't be building a deck specifically for it unless I get exceedingly bored. Although I guess Ashling the Pilgrim and 49 Mountains would be cheap
At first, the name of "tiny commander" reminded me at first of a joke format I played once. My friend called it mini magic and you could only use split cards cut in half (and lands cut in half) so that decks were actually half the size.
Hey all! So I havent read through every page of this thread yet and I havent had too much experience KCI builds (I play an updated version of asheroth's list, hes my brother) but I noticed a near equal amount of fizzles for my list and the 3 or so variations of KCI builds that I tested. So to me it came down to which build I preferred to play. So I just wanted to ask why the consensus is that KCI is far and away better than something like my brothers build? Thanks for your time peace.
3 Reaver Drone
3 Bearer of Silence
3 Forerunner of Slaughter
4 Flayer Drone
4 Matter Reshaper
2 Eldrazi Obligator
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
Spells
2 Duress
4 Ghostfire Blade
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Read the Bones
4 Crumbling Vestige
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Ruins of Oran-Rief
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Blighted Fen
2 Battlefield Forge
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Smoldering Marsh
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Flaying Tendrils
2 Duress
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Ultimate Price
2 Roast
1 Bearer of Silence
2 Warping Wail
2 Cranial Archive
Some notes: Reaver Drone is just a bad card. It's fine game 1 or on the play vs things like control. It's problem is that it's just outclassed by every creature currently played in Standard. Yeah it's probably the best 1 drop creature in these colors (and that's why I play it) but it's such a bad top-deck. It also came out game 2 and 3 every round. Eldrazi Obligator is great at breaking up stalemates. I won a game by dealing 19 damage in a turn when I stole someones Anafenza. Unfortunately, stealing one of the Origins flip-walkers before they flip won't give you the walker if you satisfy the condition. IMO this deck would play better as a mid-range deck. The only problem is that you'd want to cut the aggro focused creatures, namely Reaver Drone, Flayer Drone, and Forerunner of Slaughter. That's a pretty big chunk of the deck that you'd replace if you go away from aggro.
That said, I played this deck to 5-4 at SCG Cincinnati today and my friend went 1-5 with a similar deck before giving up. I can safely say that I lost way more games to myself than to the opponent, be they misplays or fizzles or just drawing dead to start. I'll post my list and what I remember from the matches that I lost.
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Plains
Artifacts
4x Chromatic Star
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Conjurer's Bauble
4x Krark-Clan Ironworks
4x Ichor Wellspring
4x Lotus Bloom
1x Mox Opal
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Codex Shredder
4x Reshape
4x Faith's Reward
3x Open the Vaults
2x Thoughtcast
2x Edge of Autumn
1x Banefire
1x Noxious Revival
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Pyroclasm
2x Erase
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Aether Spellbomb
2x Echoing Truth
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Bitter Ordeal
If you have questions about why I included certain cards, just ask. But the main deck is relatively standard as far as this deck goes; three win cons (Codex Shredder, Spellbomb, and Banefire). Banefire is the simple and easy win condition that I chose over Emrakul because Cryptic Command tapped down my Emrakul a few too many times in play testing. The Tezzerets out of the board are INSANE against the fair matchups (mostly GBx decks). Make a few 5/5s then sit back and dig for artifacts. Other sideboard cards are self-explanatory. So I'll skip over the matches that I won because none of them had anything too significant.
Round 1 vs Bloom Titan
Game 1: This guy was not a good player but I drew blank game 1. I had a few 1 mana artifacts out but didn't draw enough lands to play a KCI or a Reward. Turn 5 rolled around and I figured I had to go for it. Dug for a Reshape but never saw it. Didn't have enough mana to do anything useful and just wasted my eggs. Lost
Game 2: Lost to his turn 3 on the draw win. Nothing I could do about it.
Round 4 vs GW Hatebears
Game 1: Lost to Thalia into Scavenging Ooze.
Game 2: Won off the back of double Pyroclasm.
Game 3: Backed into a corner where I had to combo out to win. Limped through 1 Faith's Reward and 1 Open the Vaults iteration then came up blank. I drew into 2 Open the Vaults but hadn't been able to net enough mana to cast them since I had relied on Ghost Quartering my own lands to net mana off the Reward but didn't get them back on OtV. If I had drawn another Reward, I probably won.
Round 5 vs Boggles
Game 1: I confidently started going off on turn 4 while on the play and he scooped. I probably had it but he didn't bother playing it out after I got a pretty good initial Faith's Reward off.
Game 2: I made a HUGE misplay here. He goes turn 1 land, pass. Turn 2 Dryad Arbor and Ethereal Armor on the Arbor. Turn 3 Hyena Umbra WHILE I HAVE A GHOST QUARTER UP. At this point it should've been obvious he was going all in on that stupid Arbor. But I tunnel visioned in on comboing that I didn't Ghost Quarter his Dryad Arbor. Lost the game shortly after while on full tilt.
Game 3: Seriously on tilt from last game I kept a 0 land hand with a Lotus Bloom thinking I'd be golden if I drew a land. Didn't draw a land.
Round 8 vs Tron
Turns out O-stone and Karn are pretty decent. I made the mistake of tapping out for 2 Thoughtcasts hoping to hit a land when I had a few Stars and a few Spheres out. Didn't hit a land and lost my rocks to O-Stone and had no draw power.
My wins were against Jund, Junk, Zoo, Burn, and UW Emeria control list. So my big takeaways are that I need to tighten up my play and I might add a second Mox Opal in. I also think I need to mulligan a little more aggressively. Overall though, I'm happy with how I did considering I was playing eggs at a 1000+ person SCG Open.
EDIT: I think Nihil Spellbomb is something I want to work into the Side
As for me, I have absolutely loved playing in a competitive EDH meta. I also have a lot of friends that like to just play for fun and get annoyed with too competitive decks, so I keep a "sideboard" of sorts that I can switch things out depending on who I play with. This is something my various play groups talk about (mostly talking ***** about the other party and how casual or serious they are). Trying to mix the two ideologies is absolutely hilarious though, it always turns into a crap show.
Edit: I play Lyzolda and usually take out the tutors when playing more casual.
That said, if I were to run control right, I'd be running some amount of Chalice of the Void at very least in the side board. I play UR Tron (it's mono-blue with 4x Electrolyze main and a few side cards) and I run 2 or 3 Chalice main depending on the day, so I may be slightly biased. Chalice on 1 is incredibly strong against the Infect and Burn that are popular at the moment.
Also, if you want to run mill, I'd suggest a few board wipes main, they are just necessary in Modern in my opinion without the deck manipulation and dig that Legacy offers. Unless you discard into Surgical on turn 1, you could just straight lose to a Goblin Guide let alone a Goyf into Siege Rhino if they manage to run you out of steam. As far as Cyc Rift goes, I wouldn't touch it unless you're playing Tron.
Edit - don't know if that was the list you were set on running but do you have fetches? The land base should be tweaked.
EDIT: Card tags
At first, the name of "tiny commander" reminded me at first of a joke format I played once. My friend called it mini magic and you could only use split cards cut in half (and lands cut in half) so that decks were actually half the size.
Edit- that render is really good looking though
Lotus Bloom
Wurmcoil Engine
Anyone for reviving this?
This made me laugh out loud actually. Got some weird looks in Starbucks.