I honestly don't see much in the way of Hollow One placing; all of my testing with the "solved" decklist that everyone uses has been very underwhelming. Not enough interaction, too much durdling with trying to get free Hollow Ones instead of curving out and burning your opponent down.
I never thought I would see the day where people are citing decks that go against wotc's stated goals of the format as a reason to keep twin banned but here we are. I personally found it much easy and much more enjoyable to brew with twin in the format. It was something you had to account for but so is any deck that sees competitive play. Its worth mentioning that these unfair brews were bad with twin and bad without twin in the format.
They don't reliably kill before Turn 4, so I don't really see the issue. Grishoalbrand can kill Turn 1, no issues according to WotC, so...
EDIT: I'm going to have to walk away for a bit, as this "I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again." is so tilting I feel a need to scream out my window.
I, lost something. You gained, nothing. Its like all the Eldrazi decks still kicking around pissing me off by simply existing while I had to lose my deck.
Wow, I really didn't mean to make this a personal thing, id. Apologies for creating this kind of frustration; let's just say I was dead wrong about Jace, and I could be completely wrong here. I'll be the first to admit that my own bias is obviously the crux of the argument, not the "Health of the Format."
EDIT x 2: Further to this "...accomplished the goals it was stated to have been banned for" it would probably be nice if we saw agreement from the rest of the 'regulars' around here that Twin simply had no reason to be banned, that it was not an offender in any real way, was just another good Modern deck, and would simply slot back in as another good deck. That it was not oppressing other blue decks (we already have shown this to be true) and that the ban was a complete failure in terms of its stated goals. The only goal it accomplished, which would have been done ANYWAY due to the Eldrazi, was a Pro Tour shake up, which Forsythe admitted to, in not so many words.
I dont expect that to happen, but...if anyone could prove, PROVE, that there was a meaningful impact to the Twin ban that was positive other than 'yay I get to tap out and not care' well be my guest.
Twin had almost no bad matchups and reduced combo deck diversity, as it simply was THE BEST combo deck. I find it to be very positive that I have even the tiniest hope of playing interesting combo decks that might have the versatility and multiple attack angles to stand up to both other combo decks, as well as MidRange or Control decks.
If Twin exists in Modern, that hope dissipates. Its interaction suite is by far better than any other available combo deck can present, it has better angles to attack on than other combo decks can provide, and it still maintains a fast clock that arrives at instant speed. I see no positives to reducing the amount of Brew Space in Modern by adding a singularly "best" combo deck like Twin.
WotC's reasons were all BS. My reasons are simply personal bias because I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again.
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists?
Twin changes nothing for decks like that, they're already unplayable from a competitive standpoint. Adding Twin to the format can't make a deck that's already unplayable even less playable. What Twin does do is make top tier uninteractive linear decks less desirable to play, and interactive decks more desirable. If you had a player on the fence between playing Hollow One or GBx for a tournament, he might land on Hollow One without Twin in the format, but maybe he plays GBx instead if Twin is legal. You can still play Hollow One in the Twin format if you want, but maybe they start running some of their sideboard interaction in the main to hedge against Twin game 1. Or maybe you just stay focused and linear and hope to dodge Twin. It makes those decks less desirable, but not unplayable.
The dream of the Brewer is that no one has tuned those decks correctly so that they ARE playable from a competitive standpoint. I've been testing the Belcher variant that one guy posted on Reddit, saying he's 20-4 in matches this past month, and it's pretty dang good. Gkouru is pretty spot-on, though, in saying that Humans is the new "fair" Twin by making these decks very difficult to play with Meddling Mage and Freebooter forcing you to interact or get trampled to death. They just don't have a 2-card "I win" button that makes them a better version of Belcher; instead, they police the format and cleanup a lot of the silly, degenerate decks a bit more while not being the best degenerate deck. I much prefer things this way, personally.
With Twin in the format, why would I even brew degenerate decks at all? Does it matter if I brew up the next Cheeri0s deck? No, because it'll still never be better than Twin.
Twin would not break Modern. It would be one powerful deck among many other powerful decks.
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists? It's the same reason I'm so very glad that Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and now Trophy are a thing; when I first started playing Modern with Skred Red, I got to a point where I realized there was no reason to ever play my deck in a Competitive environment, because the Tron and Valakut matchups were just SO bad. So I stopped playing it. I'd like to avoid that same outcome with many janky combo decks I enjoy playing.
What you fear (I believe) is already a thing. The random jank that Twin DID beat up on, I can still beat up on with UR Breach, or UR Thing Blue Moon. People just don't see Blue Moon as 'real' and so they discount it, but make no mistake, the deck beats janky bad decks that cannot interact on the stack.
Trophy is about to 'fix' Modern as you call it anyway. It's going to get grindy soon and some will enjoy it, some will not.
Just like when Jace and BBE came back, people are desperately looking to play BGx and Uxx.
Breach is substantially less powerful than Twin; I wouldn't mind seeing something in-between the two get printed, though. Thing Blue Moon and Tempo Wizards are both decent "fair" versions of Twin, though.
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Who is saying Blue is the victim? You are taking a position a few of us hold, and pushing it to hyperbolic levels.
Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern. This is fact, we have all been over this.
Even UR is 'good'.
Okay, I'll tone back the hyperbole. Too much Reddit exposure, where that kind of hyperbole was simply the opinions of many for a long time.
I mean look at your other post. You think Twin would warp Modern?
This is the big distinction: I think it would warp Modern, while I'm sure many of you think it would fix Modern. What some see as a glitch in the machine, I see as one of its greatest features.
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
I actually DO tell MidRange fanatics to play more Standard if that is the only thing they ever want to play. I played Standard for years and years, and watched Blue be very oppressive for much of that time, and now that it's Red's turn, all these "superior" Blue players have a stick up their butt, and they're very vocal about how "unfair" it is. Just irritating when there ARE other options for the exact thing people are complaining isn't powerful enough in my favorite format, so PLS WARP MODERN TO ACCOMMODATE ME!! I enjoy having a large assortment of degenerate decks running around, though I'm still in favor of banning Spirit Guide to reduce cheesy wins from happening once in a while. I don't like KCI's resistance to multiple pieces of SB hate, or Gris winning on Turn 1 with Simian, but I DO actually enjoy working hard to tune a deck so that it's consistent enough to Charbelch people to death or pop Quest for the Holy Relic by Turn 3. My argument is not against tempo Izzet decks per se, but specifically that this is the only format where the kind of degenerate stuff I enjoy is allowed to exist and even sometimes be somewhat competitive! It literally exists no where else!
But no, I'm obviously just enjoying BadWrongFun, and we need Splinter Twin Jesus to save us all by becoming the new degenerate bullcrap and pushing out everything I like to play. Ugh. I'd much rather see Pauper get a ton more support and become an official sanctioned format.
And yes, iDSurge, one of the three insanely OP "free" Blue spells in Pauper probably needs to eat a ban. Not much past that, but one of them probably should. 16 different variants of Delver that're all Tier 1 or 2 is just a LITTLE too much, IMO.
Spell-Version Snapcaster just spoiled at UU with Surveil 2.
I think Blue is doing just fine, and you guys REALLY need to go play Pauper if this isn't enough for you. Every complaint in this Thread is absolutely addressed by moving to a different format.
personally id like to see some sort of free counter magic (like force of will) that was more playable. its the only type that is really missing. it would be a challenge to balance correctly, and there are some risks involved; however i think the format could be improved if one was around as a safety outlet.
like you point out, there are 2 cmc counters out there if people want them. straight up counterspell would be an upgrade for sure, but its potential impact is greatly overestimated. deploying a threat and holding up 2 mana hardly keeps you tempo positive with what is going on in the format. control decks would just converge their slots, be more consistent with their gameplan, but ultimately be doing the same thing they are now.
Humans matchup is ROUGH, though.
They don't reliably kill before Turn 4, so I don't really see the issue. Grishoalbrand can kill Turn 1, no issues according to WotC, so...
Wow, I really didn't mean to make this a personal thing, id. Apologies for creating this kind of frustration; let's just say I was dead wrong about Jace, and I could be completely wrong here. I'll be the first to admit that my own bias is obviously the crux of the argument, not the "Health of the Format."
Twin had almost no bad matchups and reduced combo deck diversity, as it simply was THE BEST combo deck. I find it to be very positive that I have even the tiniest hope of playing interesting combo decks that might have the versatility and multiple attack angles to stand up to both other combo decks, as well as MidRange or Control decks.
If Twin exists in Modern, that hope dissipates. Its interaction suite is by far better than any other available combo deck can present, it has better angles to attack on than other combo decks can provide, and it still maintains a fast clock that arrives at instant speed. I see no positives to reducing the amount of Brew Space in Modern by adding a singularly "best" combo deck like Twin.
WotC's reasons were all BS. My reasons are simply personal bias because I don't want to lose all of my toys simply so that you can have your one toy back again.
The dream of the Brewer is that no one has tuned those decks correctly so that they ARE playable from a competitive standpoint. I've been testing the Belcher variant that one guy posted on Reddit, saying he's 20-4 in matches this past month, and it's pretty dang good. Gkouru is pretty spot-on, though, in saying that Humans is the new "fair" Twin by making these decks very difficult to play with Meddling Mage and Freebooter forcing you to interact or get trampled to death. They just don't have a 2-card "I win" button that makes them a better version of Belcher; instead, they police the format and cleanup a lot of the silly, degenerate decks a bit more while not being the best degenerate deck. I much prefer things this way, personally.
With Twin in the format, why would I even brew degenerate decks at all? Does it matter if I brew up the next Cheeri0s deck? No, because it'll still never be better than Twin.
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists? It's the same reason I'm so very glad that Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and now Trophy are a thing; when I first started playing Modern with Skred Red, I got to a point where I realized there was no reason to ever play my deck in a Competitive environment, because the Tron and Valakut matchups were just SO bad. So I stopped playing it. I'd like to avoid that same outcome with many janky combo decks I enjoy playing.
Breach is substantially less powerful than Twin; I wouldn't mind seeing something in-between the two get printed, though. Thing Blue Moon and Tempo Wizards are both decent "fair" versions of Twin, though.
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
Okay, I'll tone back the hyperbole. Too much Reddit exposure, where that kind of hyperbole was simply the opinions of many for a long time.
This is the big distinction: I think it would warp Modern, while I'm sure many of you think it would fix Modern. What some see as a glitch in the machine, I see as one of its greatest features.
But no, I'm obviously just enjoying BadWrongFun, and we need Splinter Twin Jesus to save us all by becoming the new degenerate bullcrap and pushing out everything I like to play. Ugh. I'd much rather see Pauper get a ton more support and become an official sanctioned format.
And yes, iDSurge, one of the three insanely OP "free" Blue spells in Pauper probably needs to eat a ban. Not much past that, but one of them probably should. 16 different variants of Delver that're all Tier 1 or 2 is just a LITTLE too much, IMO.
I think Blue is doing just fine, and you guys REALLY need to go play Pauper if this isn't enough for you. Every complaint in this Thread is absolutely addressed by moving to a different format.
I lol'ed.
Pauper. You play Pauper.
Disrupting Shoal already exists.