For the non fury version, since you can't win off just a grisel swing, do you just draw until you get the 4 ssg to breach in a borbor and fling lands for the last bit of damage? Do you tend to cast Goryos their eot turn 2 then have the free mana your turn 3 o make it easier to Goryos another target or breach?
What makes it more fragile? Because it's prone to Path to exile? Or do you mean fragile as in you can die more quickly if you're not careful ie trying to draw your combo pieces with Griselbrand and end up getting close to dying?
Basically the not being careful if you keep taking seven to find more pieces to keep on swinging. Don't get me wrong, the rush of constantly searching for a one hit KO is awesome, but its has more variance. Its like eggs, you can go off but if you fail to find more fury's. Generally with fury if you go off t2, you've seen 10 cards minimum of 60. With 50 left you get 3 grisel cracks (searches) to find a fury, so 21 cards. Chances are you will find at least one fury and the pair of red cards, swing again for another 7 cards. Probably have 20 cards left, bit more. Its when you get into the under 15 cards or so that it starts to get risky if you havn't found the last 2 fury's, and if you fail at that point, or if they know the deck and only path at that point, then your done. Its basically more fragile because its more all in. Granted if you fail you have a lot of cards in the graveyard to try and reanimate again depending on the 7 you've kept in hand, but they would know whats up and likely have removal or a counter in hand. My version also ran pacts of negation to help ensure I could keep swinging with fury, so that added some protection, but it still felt like a risky deck.
I haven't tested this new version, but looking at it, it seems safer. I also think it looks more fun/safe compared to an ooze deck. Ive tried the ooze version, never really liked it. Could be it just didn't fit my style.
So how come people aren't going the Fury of the Hordes route anymore? What does Nourishing Shoal/Worldspine Wurm/Borborygmos do that is better than the Fury of the Hordes kill?
My belief is that the fury route, though much easier to land a very fast kill, is more fragile. The shoal with world allows for another few turns of survival for free. I personally have only played the furt version but this worldspine one looks much more consistent (I ran blue in mine for izzet charm, no green).
Though in Kathals list, I feel like you could try taking out the nights whispers and test fury in their spot, could be interesting.
@ animate
in match 1 game 2, he blocked your grisel but pathed it too? I don't really understand that part. Wouldnt he copy your grisel, then path yours and have his own to swing?
1-2 BG Zombies - impossible to deal with a landed lotleth troll. never found the 1 of terminate. last game never got lands, mulled to 6 as well. only 2 lands after 5 draws, 2 thought scours.
0-2 burn - Max was right, burns brutalally bad, and there probably isn't anything to be done to beat it. g1 searing blaze killed my one delver, died by t3. g2 got out a claw third turn (had to dig for it so couldnt play it turn 2) and was dead turn 4 by two 3/4 monastery swifts. 2 vexing devils on turn 2 dealing 8 damage was huge. Stuck on 2 lands in 5 draws.
I did want to fetch a blood crypt in one game, so may add that to the mana base. I do think I want to up the land count by one. Deprive was ok some games, but due to the low land count and how many times I missed drops, I don't think its where I want to be. Leaning towards leak over it, but I will test it another day or two before changing over to leaks.
Banning anything like Summer Bloom, Amulet, and Karoo lands, or even Summmoner's Pact or Tolaria West would cripple the deck and make it unplayable in a blink of an eye. There is no real substitute for any of those cards, and in the end the Bloom Titan is a fragile construction which has just enough to be good. Taking any of the pieces would make the puzzle to stop making any sense. Banning Amulet kills the deck because there is no reason to play it over Tron. Banning Summer Bloom would kill the deck because it has no real replacement and the deck would not be playable being a ramp deck with no good ramp spells. Banning Karoo lands would make Summer Bloom useless, defeating the purpose of the deck, making it unplayable. Banning Tolaria or Pact would make the deck actually lose to a Path, making it unplayable. It is either a matter of killing it totally or leave it as it is.
I would be funny if anything from the deck will be banned because it has yet to win a premier event.
Thank you so much. You said that very well. I would guess that most people who want it banned probably played against it exactly 1 time or saw it on camera one time. Sure the deck can win on turn 2 or 3. But what's next? Infect will get some camera coverage of double fetch, Glistener Elf, Probe, triple Mutagenic Growth and Become Immense. Then it gets canned.
Like I've said before, test the deck out against Twin and Junk. Tell me how many times you won. Then and only then can you say that something should be banned.
Agreed. Infect and Affinity can win by t2/t3 with great draws as well, but it wasn't seen on camera, so people aren't complaining as much. Playing Bloom Titan has shown that some games you just durdle and do absolutely nothing. If I cant find a titan or pact fast enough then I just die. With affinity and infect, those decks are at least constantly attacking. Theres less durdling with them.
People enjoy bandwagons though, and it seems wizards listens to those people. Only time will tell.
Lets take the standard talk to the standard boards. Cluttering up a discussion about the future of modern with standard arguments is a waste.
I am surprised at the amount of people that want Modern like legacy. Why not just play legacy then? If its the cost I can understand, but if modern became like legacy, the cost would probably rise as well, keeping more new players out than it already does.
Has anyone tried Monastery Siege? It seems like on of the cards people were talking about in the new set, but I haven't seen anyone using it.
I use 2 in my sideboard, no keranos. I like it, its mostly useful vs abzan and other decks with kill spells. Its you can't be targeted effect isn't great vs abzan because by t3 they have already used iok/thoughtseize. Its good vs scapeshift thats for sure.
I have not tested deprive, instead I play remands. This is probably why I have not been having an issue with the black needed for inquisition (I often find myself fetching blood crypt when I go for inquisition turn one). Its possible that the double blue needed for deprive makes discard spells unplayable.
I have been playing only two snapcasters ($$$), two tasigur, and three probe for a total of 3 inquisition main. I also used to cut one 1 electrolyze and put it in the board, but that turned out to be wrong.
I can see myself cutting a second probe. But, its possible that its just too good to cut.
Thats something I thought I'd do myself using max's list.
- 1 Electrolyze
- 1 Deprive
- 1 Sleight of Hand
+3 IOK or Thoughtsieze
Pobably iok to take stuff that can hurt our creatures, since there are counter and kill spells to stop the big stuff. DOing that I'd change one land to have another black mana.
@ max
In Regards to your burn comments, did you find the 3 dragons claw not enough or didn't work well? I agree with the skite and vandal inclusions. I'd also want to fit a second skite in, to help with burn and twin matches. Porbably cutting keranos (I personally just wouldnt want to tap out to play it, but im sure you've tested it more and might do well). Thanks for your input so far!
Unban everything, print new answers, let the format regulate itself.
Ban only in case of severe necessity.
Though this is really drastic, would make for some awesome brewing. I think you'd still have to have maybe 5 cards banned at the start when starting over, the ones that are just completely broken.
Thats optimistic.
The format would be a handful of turn 1 or 2 combos with very little to stop any of them. Sounds like a blast!!!
meh, least it would give people something else to complain about then whatever does well each and every major tournament. Instead it would just be about broken interactions. Lets spice things up.
Unban everything, print new answers, let the format regulate itself.
Ban only in case of severe necessity.
Though this is really drastic, would make for some awesome brewing. I think you'd still have to have maybe 5 cards banned at the start when starting over, the ones that are just completely broken.
4 Deprive? Whoa O_o
and that's a lot of Delve cards too, dang.
I am kind of surprised at this. Why not 4 Leaks instead? Easier to cast, doesn't hurt your mana, and your probably wanting to win before the pay 3 cost of leak would matter anyways.
Once again the people complaining about ssg don't seem to understand the deck runs ONE ssg usually. The chances of having that and the other cards needed for a turn one win are crazy. After turn one the deck doesn't need ssg. It's useless from then on. Amulet is what allows for the turn 2 titan plays with bloom. Otherwise just with bloom t3 is earliest for a Titan. And both those plays don't win the game. It will take at minimum two swing with a Titan.
Speck's list played 3. But I get your point. It isn't always a 4 of that is going for the turn 1 kill.
Indeed. Hayne, who top 8'd as well, only ran one. Also as I stated before (maybe in another thread) banning SSG hurts living end and ad nauseum as well. Take away amulet if you want to hurt bloom titan, since ssg wouldn't be used in the deck if that happened (or I guess it could be a 4 of to use summer bloom turn 1, but you would at most land 2 karoo then, still not allowing for a turn 1 or even 2 titan unless you had a second ssg). Don't get me wrong, I don't want a ban since its one of the many decks I play, and I believe the best course of action for the next bannings should just have 1-2 unbannings, and see what happens.
Once again the people complaining about ssg don't seem to understand the deck runs ONE ssg usually. The chances of having that and the other cards needed for a turn one win are crazy. After turn one the deck doesn't need ssg. It's useless from then on. Amulet is what allows for the turn 2 titan plays with bloom. Otherwise just with bloom t3 is earliest for a Titan. And both those plays don't win the game. It will take at minimum two swing with a Titan.
. I believe the fact that people aren't prepared for it has something to do with it but 50% of top 16 is still absurd.
Which I think is dumb since it just won the PT, and for the lead up to the GP everyone had been saying there would be a ton of twin. If your not sideboarding for it then you don't deserve to be in the top spots. People by now should be prepared for a deck thats been around for years now.
I'm running discard main. Not sure if spell pierce is where we want to be. I'll have to browse the gatherer for better life gain cards.
For the non fury version, since you can't win off just a grisel swing, do you just draw until you get the 4 ssg to breach in a borbor and fling lands for the last bit of damage? Do you tend to cast Goryos their eot turn 2 then have the free mana your turn 3 o make it easier to Goryos another target or breach?
Thanks for the help!
Basically the not being careful if you keep taking seven to find more pieces to keep on swinging. Don't get me wrong, the rush of constantly searching for a one hit KO is awesome, but its has more variance. Its like eggs, you can go off but if you fail to find more fury's. Generally with fury if you go off t2, you've seen 10 cards minimum of 60. With 50 left you get 3 grisel cracks (searches) to find a fury, so 21 cards. Chances are you will find at least one fury and the pair of red cards, swing again for another 7 cards. Probably have 20 cards left, bit more. Its when you get into the under 15 cards or so that it starts to get risky if you havn't found the last 2 fury's, and if you fail at that point, or if they know the deck and only path at that point, then your done. Its basically more fragile because its more all in. Granted if you fail you have a lot of cards in the graveyard to try and reanimate again depending on the 7 you've kept in hand, but they would know whats up and likely have removal or a counter in hand. My version also ran pacts of negation to help ensure I could keep swinging with fury, so that added some protection, but it still felt like a risky deck.
I haven't tested this new version, but looking at it, it seems safer. I also think it looks more fun/safe compared to an ooze deck. Ive tried the ooze version, never really liked it. Could be it just didn't fit my style.
My belief is that the fury route, though much easier to land a very fast kill, is more fragile. The shoal with world allows for another few turns of survival for free. I personally have only played the furt version but this worldspine one looks much more consistent (I ran blue in mine for izzet charm, no green).
Though in Kathals list, I feel like you could try taking out the nights whispers and test fury in their spot, could be interesting.
@ animate
in match 1 game 2, he blocked your grisel but pathed it too? I don't really understand that part. Wouldnt he copy your grisel, then path yours and have his own to swing?
Had some testing tonight. Deck for reference:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
3 Deprive
1 Terminate
3 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shatterstorm
2 Blood Moon
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Dispel
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Combust
1-2 Grisel Reani - g3 he landed a turn 1 defense grid which shut me out. had a nihil on board but he through the breached an emrakul
2-1 UB mill
2-0 RW Hatebears/Flicker (vials, flickering akroma)
1-2 BG Zombies - impossible to deal with a landed lotleth troll. never found the 1 of terminate. last game never got lands, mulled to 6 as well. only 2 lands after 5 draws, 2 thought scours.
0-2 burn - Max was right, burns brutalally bad, and there probably isn't anything to be done to beat it. g1 searing blaze killed my one delver, died by t3. g2 got out a claw third turn (had to dig for it so couldnt play it turn 2) and was dead turn 4 by two 3/4 monastery swifts. 2 vexing devils on turn 2 dealing 8 damage was huge. Stuck on 2 lands in 5 draws.
I did want to fetch a blood crypt in one game, so may add that to the mana base. I do think I want to up the land count by one. Deprive was ok some games, but due to the low land count and how many times I missed drops, I don't think its where I want to be. Leaning towards leak over it, but I will test it another day or two before changing over to leaks.
Loving the inquisitions though!
Agreed. Infect and Affinity can win by t2/t3 with great draws as well, but it wasn't seen on camera, so people aren't complaining as much. Playing Bloom Titan has shown that some games you just durdle and do absolutely nothing. If I cant find a titan or pact fast enough then I just die. With affinity and infect, those decks are at least constantly attacking. Theres less durdling with them.
People enjoy bandwagons though, and it seems wizards listens to those people. Only time will tell.
I am surprised at the amount of people that want Modern like legacy. Why not just play legacy then? If its the cost I can understand, but if modern became like legacy, the cost would probably rise as well, keeping more new players out than it already does.
I use 2 in my sideboard, no keranos. I like it, its mostly useful vs abzan and other decks with kill spells. Its you can't be targeted effect isn't great vs abzan because by t3 they have already used iok/thoughtseize. Its good vs scapeshift thats for sure.
Thats something I thought I'd do myself using max's list.
- 1 Electrolyze
- 1 Deprive
- 1 Sleight of Hand
+3 IOK or Thoughtsieze
Pobably iok to take stuff that can hurt our creatures, since there are counter and kill spells to stop the big stuff. DOing that I'd change one land to have another black mana.
@ max
In Regards to your burn comments, did you find the 3 dragons claw not enough or didn't work well? I agree with the skite and vandal inclusions. I'd also want to fit a second skite in, to help with burn and twin matches. Porbably cutting keranos (I personally just wouldnt want to tap out to play it, but im sure you've tested it more and might do well). Thanks for your input so far!
meh, least it would give people something else to complain about then whatever does well each and every major tournament. Instead it would just be about broken interactions. Lets spice things up.
Though this is really drastic, would make for some awesome brewing. I think you'd still have to have maybe 5 cards banned at the start when starting over, the ones that are just completely broken.
I am kind of surprised at this. Why not 4 Leaks instead? Easier to cast, doesn't hurt your mana, and your probably wanting to win before the pay 3 cost of leak would matter anyways.
Indeed. Hayne, who top 8'd as well, only ran one. Also as I stated before (maybe in another thread) banning SSG hurts living end and ad nauseum as well. Take away amulet if you want to hurt bloom titan, since ssg wouldn't be used in the deck if that happened (or I guess it could be a 4 of to use summer bloom turn 1, but you would at most land 2 karoo then, still not allowing for a turn 1 or even 2 titan unless you had a second ssg). Don't get me wrong, I don't want a ban since its one of the many decks I play, and I believe the best course of action for the next bannings should just have 1-2 unbannings, and see what happens.
Which I think is dumb since it just won the PT, and for the lead up to the GP everyone had been saying there would be a ton of twin. If your not sideboarding for it then you don't deserve to be in the top spots. People by now should be prepared for a deck thats been around for years now.