I'm putting a Kiki Pod deck together in paper, and I've got everything I need except for the Groves of the Burnwillows. Until I get those, would you guys recommend putting in a playset of Copperline Gorges or maybe some Rootbound Crags for the time being? Or some more shocks?
I would go for Copperlines over Rootbound. Turn 1 dork is required for most hands.
This might sound like an odd suggestion, but has anyone tested Pack Rat? He's a discard outlet like Liliana to turn on Ensnaring. You can turn irrelevant trinkets or discard into something useful. I can't see more than a 1 or 2 of.
@ Muten Yoshi: Thanks for the detailed reply and to everyone else as well.
It seems to me the gift splash necessitates the white splash for unburial rites. This in turn weakens my shackles which was one of my original motivations behind playing the deck. Liliana/Bridge/Tezzeret is also a great deck but turn 3 BB puts me pretty heavily into black. Not writing it off completely yet. So for my next batch of testing, Back to Basics.
Thoughtseize/IoK. I cut thoughtseize when it always performed well.
Cryptic Command. Damnation.
Tezzeret the Seeker. As much as I like Tezz AoB, the deck I'm looking for might actually be UR Tezzerator.
It looks like it will also be worth my time to test unmodified lists for Bridge Tezz, Tezzerator, and 4c Gifts before I end up with a weaker hybrid.
I think Muten Yoshi will like answering your questions, as he has already put a bit of thought into the Tezz Gifts build, but we never really got to the bottom of things on it. Moreover Ive seen him active in the main Gifts thread, so he's your go-to guy. I, for one, am very curious about & interested in how this turns out.
Also, notice that noone here is playing white so you're in uncharted territory. Thats good.
EDIT: its a good thing this is reviving the discussion. I was telling myself just today how maybe our build could appreciate a little Spike-ifying.
Thanks. I'll look forward to his reply.
I can't recommend the white splash highly enough. Definitely give it a try. This isn't a wasteland format so 3 colours can't even be considered greedy.
Lingering Souls means you don't need to resort to Thopter Foundry (I even considered bitterblossom!) for your 1/1 fliers. Admittedly "in response, sac" are some of my favourite words to say, but BW3 for 4 fliers or UB4, sac 4 artifacts for 4 life and 4 fliers just doesn't even seem close. It can be discarded for value off of a Thirst. It can feed a trading post. Great card.
Path to Exile (and Dispatch!). We're not winning quickly, so instant speed hard removal is a necessity in the format. If your artifact count is high enough (Mox Opal builds) Dispatch is definitely worth considering. Executioner's Capsule can be activated at instant speed true, but it needs to be on the table. You can't bluff it, your opponent will play around it. If I'm paying BB1 for a sorcery that says destroy, it better also have the word "land" on it.
Tidehollow Sculler. How are bridge/lili builds not running this? T1 rack, T2 sculler, T3 bridge/lili? Yes please. Grab their removal and force them to waste a bolt on it (one-for-one) or land a spellskite alongside...
Ethersworn Canonist. It's a great sideboard card to begin with. It gets even better when it's one-sided, recurrable and we have some of the best digging available.
I've decided that for my next modern deck I want to be playing:
Thirst for Knowledge
Vedalken Shackles
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
and to a lesser extent, I'm a big fan of:
Spellskite
Wurmcoil Engine
Trading Post
I've been fishbowling for the last week with different configurations trying to find a variation I like. Shackles puts me off of the Bridge/Liliana versions but at the same time, coming from Kiki-Pod and Legacy Goblins, I am very admittedly bad at traditional control and knowing when to keep up countermagic. I imagine my thoughts won't be particularly new but thought I'd share my explorations thus far.
My first build was an extremely greedy attempt to try and mix in blood moon and galvanic blast while relying on talismans and signets for UB. There's not much to say about it as I scrapped this rather quickly in favour of straight UB.
As strong as they may be, I never felt like I was using mana leak/cryptic command properly this is my inexperience playing blue coming out. Thoughtseize is a STRONG turn 1 play. Especially post-board, when the inevitable artifact hate comes in. Trinket Mage I started at 2. They felt alright. Reasonable, but most of the tiny artifacts I see people running just feel bad. Chalice is a great card... in legacy. It didn't feel worth maindecking. Executioner's Capsule always feels like too much mana. BB1 for targetted removal. Sure it's a trinket mage target but that's 6 mana for a grizzly bear and a doom blade. Pithing Needle and EE definitely pulled their weight though. Wellsprings and Trading Posts I lump together as cards that feel really good but objectively do as much as they seem to. Trading Post is cool enough that I will probably continue to run it but I recognize this is Johnny's choice not Spike's.
Then I got hit by Suppression Field and Stony Silence. The deck definitely needs an out to enchantments. Bouncing and countering is an option, but that's a 2-for-1 once it resolves, so I splashed Breeding Pools and Golgari Signets for 2 Abrupt Decays mainboard and 2 more side. Rings of Brighthearth was also experimented with as a fun-of one-of. It did enable a Tezzeret drain for 38 against Martyr-Proc and effectively doubles the number of shackles out. Fun card, but frequently just Thirst fodder. Biggest problems at this point was the inability to close games out without Tezz or Wurmcoil. There's a huge portion of the deck that just doesn't impact the board. Difficulty dealing with fliers (had to cut inkmoths)
Caleb Durward's list was the next progression. More combinations of "T2 mana rock, T3 controlling 4-drop" is a good look for the deck. White adds so much more than green with path, lingering souls, detention sphere, supreme verdict and unburial rites. My biggest problem was wanting to play shackles. I need T3 UB and WW while maximizing island count so this means swapping azorious signet for orzhov and dropping utility and man lands.
I'm still not completely in love with the list but not sure what direction to go next. Some of my considerations:
Darksteel Citadel, Inkmoth Nexus, Phyrexia's Core, or Marsh Flats? I currently have darksteel for better digging with Tezzeret (20 artifacts total). There's arguments for all 4.
Crucible. Main or side? It's mainly for the gifts pile: <Artifact or Tectonic Edge>, Academy Ruins, Buried Ruins, Crucible. Would likely take the place of pithing. Might push land flex slots more towards Marsh Flats.
3 Wrath of Gods and 3 Vedalken Shackles strains the mana. Tempted to drop the white to a splash and run Cryptic Command + Damnation instead in order to improve the mana (Orzhov Signet to Talisman of Domination)
Gifts for 3 Wraths + Shackles/Souls empties my library of sweepers. Only an issue if they manage to recover. Two sweepers or shackles on an empty board should be enough to lock things down but I haven't tested aggro match-ups enough yet.
In a similar vein, also down to only 1 unburial rites. With DRS gone, gravehate in main is less prevalent. Would it be worth running a second copy in the side?
I want a copy of Detention Sphere (or another answer to Stony Silence/Suppression Field/Rest in Peace) somewhere in the 75.
Sword of the Meek and Weatherseed Totem were the only other self-recurrable artifacts. Though I would go with artifact token generators like Thopter Assembly.
Phyrexian Obliterator (Or do I? I want it to be good, but I don't really want to play against it)
... Naya Hushblade (I just keep trying and trying... I want a Nimble Mongoose)
I agree with your sentiments on Obliterator. I kind of want to give him a try in my M(-ish)BC brew. Been using Phyrexian Crusader + Runechanters as a win-cond but Obliterator could easily fill those slots and open up the inkmoths to become tec-edges.
I played with a Knight of New Alara deck using [Hush/Hack/Sure]blade. 6/5 for 2 ain't too shabby. It's pretty janky and a lot of fun when it works. I'll need to update it considering the BBE bans; it was Naya but I'd consider a Junk for Deathrite Shaman. Wilt-Leaf Liege, Pillar of the Paruns, Kitchen Finks, Qasali Pridemage were all-stars. Glittering Wish-board for maximum jankiness.
I love blood moon, especially in modern where manabases are so fragile. Given we're running 4-5 colours but being able to pod away the magus if he becomes problematic. That being said, he makes RRR incredibly easy to hit. The manabase definitely needs work before trying to run him. Dropping filters for fetches and basics might be enough.
Quillspike + Devoted Druid is pretty cool. Gets around ghostly prison but needs to sit around for a turn before it wins.
Also why don't people run Thalia main board? I find myself constantly grabbing her. Perhaps it's the maverick player in me coming out but I find her useful far more often than sparkmage or redcap.
Sideboard seems like the spot for all those extras you want to run. Other cards you'll want to fit in: Ethersworn Canonist (combo), Grafdigger's Cage (pod, reanimator, past in flames). Phyrexian Metamorph seems like a solid choice too.
The deck's pretty tight as is, so I imagine it's probably hard to fit in, but I have a soft spot for trading post. It might not be good enough to make the jump to modern. Have you given it a try?
Manabase looks painful. Hoping to get the most out of EE of course but how is the life loss working out? Have you tried glimmervoid?
Upping Tolaria West to two seems more than reasonable. Two academy ruins probably wouldn't be an issue but there will always be that game where you have one stuck in your hand. Liliana and post should be more than happy to get rid of it for you.
Urborg is great, but in your deck, B is really light. I can't think of many cases where it's better than sunken ruins. Plus sunken ruins is on theme with academy ruins and buried ruin.
I was a little confused by Synod Sanctum but the shackles interaction is pretty awesome. Whenever I play artifact control, shackles is the one card I fear more than anything. Up that to 3 for sure.
Chalice is not as strong as it is in legacy. It's both more difficult for you to get it out for one on turn one and it's not as backbreaking when modern curves tend to be higher. I think your judgement in dropping one for EE is correct. Maybe even board them completely and bring them in for the delver match-up and to combat grudges in game 2.
Tron is difficult for most control, it just goes so damn big. Best thing you can do is destroy their lands. Give ghost quarter a try. One in the main, one in the board. Followed by a surgical extraction can often get them to scoop.
Because you obviously need more cards to cram into this deck: I played a mono-U artifact control deck in legacy that was running misthollow griffin and relic of progenitus. Seemed like a fun interaction. Also taking leaves out of legacy tezz's book: fettergeist. Could be awkward with skites or trinket mage though.
So does that mean that, you could nerf one of your opponents rakdos creatures that had unleash by scavenging one of your own creatures away, giving the rakdos creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter, and thus removing it's ability to block? Might be a key play in a limited game at the prerelease.
That's correct. Although RB decks are usually built as fast aggro, they'll probably thank you for the counters.
I think casting instants or sorceries NOT from your hand would provide an interesting trigger. This covers flashback, copying, suspend, rebound, isochron scepter, cascade, storm, etc. Perhaps a morbid like trigger:
Usain Lightning R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
If ~ was not cast from your hand, ~ deals 4 damage to target creature or player instead.
Brain Precipitation U
Instant
Draw 2 cards then put a card from your hand on the top or bottom of your library.
If ~ was not cast from your hand, draw 3 cards then put 2 cards on the top or bottom of your library.
Ancestral Looting UR
Sorcery
Draw 3 cards, then discard 3 cards.
If ~ was not cast from your hand, draw 3 cards instead.
I would go for Copperlines over Rootbound. Turn 1 dork is required for most hands.
It seems to me the gift splash necessitates the white splash for unburial rites. This in turn weakens my shackles which was one of my original motivations behind playing the deck. Liliana/Bridge/Tezzeret is also a great deck but turn 3 BB puts me pretty heavily into black. Not writing it off completely yet. So for my next batch of testing, Back to Basics.
It looks like it will also be worth my time to test unmodified lists for Bridge Tezz, Tezzerator, and 4c Gifts before I end up with a weaker hybrid.
Thanks. I'll look forward to his reply.
I can't recommend the white splash highly enough. Definitely give it a try. This isn't a wasteland format so 3 colours can't even be considered greedy.
- Thirst for Knowledge
- Vedalken Shackles
- Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
and to a lesser extent, I'm a big fan of:- Spellskite
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Trading Post
I've been fishbowling for the last week with different configurations trying to find a variation I like. Shackles puts me off of the Bridge/Liliana versions but at the same time, coming from Kiki-Pod and Legacy Goblins, I am very admittedly bad at traditional control and knowing when to keep up countermagic. I imagine my thoughts won't be particularly new but thought I'd share my explorations thus far.My first build was an extremely greedy attempt to try and mix in blood moon and galvanic blast while relying on talismans and signets for UB. There's not much to say about it as I scrapped this rather quickly in favour of straight UB.
As strong as they may be, I never felt like I was using mana leak/cryptic command properly this is my inexperience playing blue coming out. Thoughtseize is a STRONG turn 1 play. Especially post-board, when the inevitable artifact hate comes in. Trinket Mage I started at 2. They felt alright. Reasonable, but most of the tiny artifacts I see people running just feel bad. Chalice is a great card... in legacy. It didn't feel worth maindecking. Executioner's Capsule always feels like too much mana. BB1 for targetted removal. Sure it's a trinket mage target but that's 6 mana for a grizzly bear and a doom blade. Pithing Needle and EE definitely pulled their weight though. Wellsprings and Trading Posts I lump together as cards that feel really good but objectively do as much as they seem to. Trading Post is cool enough that I will probably continue to run it but I recognize this is Johnny's choice not Spike's.
Then I got hit by Suppression Field and Stony Silence. The deck definitely needs an out to enchantments. Bouncing and countering is an option, but that's a 2-for-1 once it resolves, so I splashed Breeding Pools and Golgari Signets for 2 Abrupt Decays mainboard and 2 more side. Rings of Brighthearth was also experimented with as a fun-of one-of. It did enable a Tezzeret drain for 38 against Martyr-Proc and effectively doubles the number of shackles out. Fun card, but frequently just Thirst fodder. Biggest problems at this point was the inability to close games out without Tezz or Wurmcoil. There's a huge portion of the deck that just doesn't impact the board. Difficulty dealing with fliers (had to cut inkmoths)
Caleb Durward's list was the next progression. More combinations of "T2 mana rock, T3 controlling 4-drop" is a good look for the deck. White adds so much more than green with path, lingering souls, detention sphere, supreme verdict and unburial rites. My biggest problem was wanting to play shackles. I need T3 UB and WW while maximizing island count so this means swapping azorious signet for orzhov and dropping utility and man lands.
4 Orzhov Signet
4 Talisman of Progress
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Trading Post
Instants (9)
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Path to Exile
Sorceries (5)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Unburial Rites
1 Lingering Souls
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Creatures (5)
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spellskite
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Lands (23)
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Watery Grave
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Buried Ruin
3 Negate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
1 Lingering Souls
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
I'm still not completely in love with the list but not sure what direction to go next. Some of my considerations:
Here's what I could find.
Sword of the Meek and Weatherseed Totem were the only other self-recurrable artifacts. Though I would go with artifact token generators like Thopter Assembly.
Hell this might even open you up to Godhead of Awe. Think of it as +0/+1 on your tokens and neuter their board.
You might be able to build gifts around him. More likely, Melira pod is the place for it.
I agree with your sentiments on Obliterator. I kind of want to give him a try in my M(-ish)BC brew. Been using Phyrexian Crusader + Runechanters as a win-cond but Obliterator could easily fill those slots and open up the inkmoths to become tec-edges.
I played with a Knight of New Alara deck using [Hush/Hack/Sure]blade. 6/5 for 2 ain't too shabby. It's pretty janky and a lot of fun when it works. I'll need to update it considering the BBE bans; it was Naya but I'd consider a Junk for Deathrite Shaman. Wilt-Leaf Liege, Pillar of the Paruns, Kitchen Finks, Qasali Pridemage were all-stars. Glittering Wish-board for maximum jankiness.
I love blood moon, especially in modern where manabases are so fragile. Given we're running 4-5 colours but being able to pod away the magus if he becomes problematic. That being said, he makes RRR incredibly easy to hit. The manabase definitely needs work before trying to run him. Dropping filters for fetches and basics might be enough.
Quillspike + Devoted Druid is pretty cool. Gets around ghostly prison but needs to sit around for a turn before it wins.
Also why don't people run Thalia main board? I find myself constantly grabbing her. Perhaps it's the maverick player in me coming out but I find her useful far more often than sparkmage or redcap.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=399240
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms4W-SobFAs
The deck's pretty tight as is, so I imagine it's probably hard to fit in, but I have a soft spot for trading post. It might not be good enough to make the jump to modern. Have you given it a try?
Manabase looks painful. Hoping to get the most out of EE of course but how is the life loss working out? Have you tried glimmervoid?
Upping Tolaria West to two seems more than reasonable. Two academy ruins probably wouldn't be an issue but there will always be that game where you have one stuck in your hand. Liliana and post should be more than happy to get rid of it for you.
Urborg is great, but in your deck, B is really light. I can't think of many cases where it's better than sunken ruins. Plus sunken ruins is on theme with academy ruins and buried ruin.
I was a little confused by Synod Sanctum but the shackles interaction is pretty awesome. Whenever I play artifact control, shackles is the one card I fear more than anything. Up that to 3 for sure.
Chalice is not as strong as it is in legacy. It's both more difficult for you to get it out for one on turn one and it's not as backbreaking when modern curves tend to be higher. I think your judgement in dropping one for EE is correct. Maybe even board them completely and bring them in for the delver match-up and to combat grudges in game 2.
Tron is difficult for most control, it just goes so damn big. Best thing you can do is destroy their lands. Give ghost quarter a try. One in the main, one in the board. Followed by a surgical extraction can often get them to scoop.
Because you obviously need more cards to cram into this deck: I played a mono-U artifact control deck in legacy that was running misthollow griffin and relic of progenitus. Seemed like a fun interaction.
Martyr often runs Stony Silence. Do you have a plan for that?
That's correct. Although RB decks are usually built as fast aggro, they'll probably thank you for the counters.
Silence on Isochron is backbreaking but not to the extent of Orim's Chant.